Saskia: How would I clean when a porn set gets

Sidney: dirty? What should I use to build stilts that are sturdy? Where could I breed a new species of birdie? Ah, ah, ah, ah! Explain like I'm 30. Hi everyone. And welcome to explain like I'm 30. I'm your host Sydney Raskind and we're here. We're home, man. So recently I talked to you, uh, in the intro of an episode about painting the garage and guess what?

Everyone, we did it. We, we painted the garage. And, um, it's all done now. It's been painted. And guess what? There's more stuff to paint because that's right. Spraying with a spray paint applicator means that you can't paint things that you might need to touch up with. So actually, I'm not done with painting everyone.

Now there's touch ups to do. And now I might have sprayed the paint gun, um, on a piece of plastic that I thought was going to stop The water and spray from going on to the floor. Guess what? It didn't. And now there's a giant, I would say, 3 foot wide by 3 foot wide square of paint on my garage floor now.

But hey, that's how we learn, people. That's how we learn. And um... It's important to learn, but I do want to say that the now finished garage actually does smell really good. Uh, I opened it up today and it was just like very, a very nice, uh, aromatic experience. Which actually leads me to our guest today, Saskia Wilson Brown, who is a scent artist and the director of the Institute for Art and Olifaction.

That's right. We have someone on the show today who I gotta tell you, I thought I was going to go into this interview talking about different smells and how they affect us and sort of like why certain smells are the way they are. But then we got into a wonderful recurring conversation about existentialism.

And what even is smell? What even is color? Why? Are we afraid of certain smells? It was truly an amazing experience. And Saskia and I really connected a lot of levels that I just am so happy about. Um, so she's an amazing guest, definitely someone that I will continue to talk to after this conversation that we had.

And I don't know, it was just a lot of fun. So Without further ado, here is the episode with Saskia, the wonderful and talented and amazing scent artist.

Hi Saskia, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much How are you? How are you doing this morning, afternoon?

Saskia: Can't complain. Yeah, things are good. It's overcast in L. A., but we like

Sidney: it like that. Yeah, right. I mean, it's just before the hot times strike. So it's like anything to stave off the horror that is Los Angeles in the summer.

In

Saskia: August. Yeah, we're gonna be crying.

Sidney: It's just like, enjoy. Enjoy the drizzle. Everyone's always like, oh, um, fall starts in a normal month. It's like actually fall starts at the end of November, everyone. And then it's just winter. So we have hot times until then it's awful It's the worst. Well again, thank you for being on the podcast.

You are a scent artist, right? That is your exact Appropriate title. Can you please explain that a little bit more?

Saskia: Sure I know it's delightfully vague. So perfumers, um, and perfumers are trained, um, in, in a traditional method. And then there's people who work with scent who are perfumers in their own right.

Um, but maybe haven't been trained in that way. And then there's people like me and we're, we're basically, I mean, I've been training in perfumery for, for years, but, but I call myself a scent artist, not a perfumer because my focus isn't on making product for sale for the market, but it's on, um, art. You know, working with scent in the context of art and also education because I'm an educator.

Sidney: You say in the context of art, so do you mean like, um, performance art and then, um, basically, uh, art exhibits and stuff like that, sort of anything that'll be in the museum or in a show room or something like that, that may be like, is a part of the experience and a part of the art

Saskia: Exactly. Got it. And then, and then, you know, not to say that there isn't, you know, uh, commerce involved because oftentimes, you know, my nonprofit, we, we create products for sale, you know, but it's just, it's sort of a cultural thing.

If you call yourself a perfumer within the perv, for perfume industry, you're sort of falling into this sort of cultural structure, which is sort of what the Institute was set up to do. So that's why no one cares literally except for me, but I'm careful about calling myself a perfumer.

Sidney: But that's the thing.

So this podcast, uh, one, one thing that I really want to focus on is just sort of making sure that those, um, extremely niche and not really known. Parts of work or your, you know, your career and experience are heard, right? So when you say that nobody cares about it Actually, I do because I want to know what those differences are and I want to know why Those are there and how do they help people and how you live in them?

I mean every single day, right? So besides someone that you're talking to in the professional space or in the nonprofit that you have, right? I would love to hear Those things that like, only, you know, that you think like, it doesn't make sense, but it's like, that's incredible that you have that information.

It's insane. It's amazing. Thanks. Absolutely. I mean, so, so how did you, how did you come from, um, How did you get to where you are now? I mean, you know, basically connect those dots. What's that story? And kind of going to that typical day of being a scent artist. I mean, are you just constantly being asked by people like my cousin that have showrooms that need a scent experience that have that needed?

And you know, what, how did you get here? And what's that like?

Saskia: Okay, well, um, we'll start with how I got here, if you will. Yeah, yeah. So I, I worked in, I'm an artist, you know, I got a master's in art and then I, um, moved to L. A. from London and I sort of found myself, like many people, working in film, you know, as a art department gopher, I guess, P.

A. was the technical term. Yeah. And I went through, you know, I went through that for a bunch of years, I ended up running a film festival and from that I ended up working at a TV network called Current TV, which I was. Coming around just at the dawn of sort of the internet video age. Actually started right before YouTube, if you can believe it.

And we were focused on viewer created content. So I got very interested in sort of questions of access and democratization in the context of the media. And then from there, I was given a book called The Emperor of Scent by a writer called Chandler Burr. And I read it and I was like, wow, this perfume industry thing is bananas.

It's a crazy industry. And I saw so many parallels between what was happening or the structures of power in perfume and the structures of power in the media. And so I started sort of segueing what I was interested in. and applying it to the fragrance industry. And so I started off trying to learn, like I initially was like, okay, I'm going to be a perfumer, you know?

Yeah. And so I started writing to all these people and saying, Hey, you know, will you, will you, can I apprentice? And people were like, uh, sorry. No, thanks. No, thanks. Yeah. Which in fairness, I mean, you know, um, People are busy, you know, but so then I, that was presented a puzzle because I was like, well, how, how does one, how do I learn and how does one learn more abstractly, you know, a person here in California in particular.

And so from that, I decided to start this nonprofit that was devoted to experimentation and access in the field of perfume to sort of create these, um, options for accessibility for Folks like me who, who were curious, but maybe couldn't move to class to like take a class, a course or whatever, a little more accessible.

Um, and, and that's sort of, yeah, that's where it all started, I guess,

Sidney: you know? Wow. So you already had the experience of being a perfumer and that, and then you started a nonprofit.

Saskia: No, no, I had no experience being a perfumer at all and I started the nonprofit selfishly so I could have the experience of being a perfumer.

Yeah, I wanted to learn, you know, that's

Sidney: amazing. Yeah. Wow. So, so you, so you started the nonprofit to learn and then it worked and then you got So where you are now, which is like just a constant of, you know, a consistent stream of experience, basically. I mean, what was that

Saskia: like? Yeah. Well, I mean, over the 11 or 12 years I've been running this thing, you know, I likely, uh, I'm resourceful and found people who knew and I was like, Hey, come teach and selfishly teach me, but teach everybody else.

So over the, you know, the last 12 years I've been, I've been learning just from my peers and, you know, just by paying attention. So what my days look like today, other than the administration aspect of running a nonprofit, um, a lot of the practice is creative practice with smell. So if I were at work behind me, you would be able to see a whole wall of aromatic molecules.

And those are sort of like our, um, our building blocks. So if somebody says, I want to. create a scent that, you know, reflects the, the odor of fear at midnight. You know, I could be like, okay, I could think of the different aromatics that maybe could convey a sense of fear at midnight and start combining them into a fragrance, you know?

Wow. So most of my days with pipettes and aromatics

Sidney: and putting them together. So can you so I mean, I have to ask this very basic question that I'm sure you get all the time. What is an aromatic?

Saskia: Yeah, great question. It's a very, it's a very fundamental question. So an aromatic is a material that has an aroma.

In the natural world, you know, we're talking about things like flowers, trees, bark, whatever, earth. Yes. And then what's available to the perfumer today is not just natural aromatics that have been distilled or processed in some way to extract the aroma from the flower. We also have this whole, um, group of what's known simplistically as synthetic.

Aroma chemicals. Wow. And those are aromatics that are developed in a laboratory by a chemist, uh, in one of the six major fragrance houses that operate globally. And they're protected by patent, uh, when they're initially discovered. And then eventually they go, the patent runs out and we can work with them.

Wow.

Sidney: Yeah. Oh, so so the patent has to go for what is it, like 20 years or something like that, or

Saskia: actually somewhere between

Sidney: seven and eight. Oh, seven and eight. Okay, so it's not that bad. So it's not that bad because I know in certain IPS, it's like, you know, with Disney or whatever, they're like, Oh, Mickey Mouse is finally released after 100 years or whatever it is.

Right? So it's not the same and smells because I guess smells are not as famous. Transcribed patentable because they're constantly changing or is it something, does that have something to do with it? Well,

Saskia: the, the patent is the, is the intellectual property protection for the process by which you come to an aromatic chemical.

So the patent covers a process. Got it. So, so that's, that's what's protected. I don't know exactly why it's only seven or eight years, but what I do know is that once it runs out, that process is no longer protected. And so the competitors are free to make their own version of, of the chemical. So, If you can imagine it sort of like Coke and Pepsi, you know, roughly the same thing.

I know people will argue with me on that, but you know, but different branding, different processes. Yeah.

Sidney: Interesting. It's interesting that you even had that reaction because I saw this sort of like, Oh gosh, what is the industry going to think of me saying that? But it's like, Oh, that makes total sense to me.

Like that. So Coke and Pepsi are two different products that, um, that I was like, Oh yeah, like, what else would you do? Like what's Dr. Pepper versus Mr. Pibb or whatever, right? Like that kind of thing. It's just like, they kind of taste the same, they smell the same. So what, what, what is the difference? But you know the difference and that's what

Saskia: matters.

Right. Yeah. But I mean, and that's just, you know, that's a, that's a rough example, but just to give the idea that, you know, you have these molecules that are, you know, the same, if not. Pretty close. Yeah. Developed by different fragrance houses, you know, that are in competition with one another. Anyway, maybe too much technical information, but.

Well,

Sidney: no, but that's, that's exactly it, right? Like I, until just now, I had no idea there were six fragrant houses. National Fragrance Corporation. Multinational Fragrance Corporations. Exactly. That existed. That's an interesting thing that the six houses sort of run the industry and then you get all of this stuff and then you are asked by artists and other people that need something to be conveyed how to do it.

I mean, how long does that process take? You

Saskia: can get a sketch together pretty quickly. I mean, depending on the ask also, but let's say something fairly standard like, you know, I want the smell of earth after it rains, which we could ask for maybe three times a week. Wow. Yeah. Well, that, that smell known as petrichor, you know, that, that sort of like the, the, the first whiff after it rains, people just love that

Sidney: smell.

It's a clean smell. It's like a very refreshing and like, Oh, we'd like, we've made it past the bad times smell. Yeah. You know, especially in LA,

Saskia: right? Yeah,

Sidney: exactly. Especially in Los Angeles. It's coming over the 405 and you're just like, wait, the rain worked.

Saskia: It's clean. Yeah. But anyway, so something like that, that's a pretty well worn path.

So you know, that's easy because, uh, you know, I have the formula, I've done it before, but it, but if it gets to be something more abstract or, or maybe something that the client has or the, the. I should say artist has very specifically in mind, um, that is hard to convey verbally because perfume is hard to talk, smells hard to talk about.

You can get into a lot of back and forth in terms of like, when you say musky, what do you mean exactly by musk? Because that doesn't mean the same thing to all the people. For me, it means a certain set of materials, galaxolide, epanolide, you know, whatever, ethylene, brasil. I mean, there's very specific materials that are in the musk family and fragrance.

that for people who think they want musk don't make sense because what they think they what they want what they mean is like a sweaty sort of skin sexy scent right and those materials actually are quite clean right so there's a lot of that sort of miscommunication between desire and and practice that um that can be tricky when you're developing a fragrance because the only way through that is through is through iteration.

And that can take a long time, you

Sidney: know, so how much that's interesting because, you know, working as someone that has delivered, uh, creative assets to clients. Yeah. Um, you know, yeah, it's more of a visual experience. Right. And even then it's like, Three or four rounds of just like constantly, constantly, constantly, like, Oh, actually wanted it to be more fun.

Okay, well, that's a subjective word that no one knows. And actually, what does fun mean? Yeah, what is what does that mean? Like, what do you do? You mean, like, fun at with your family? Do you? What does that mean? Right? And, um, But, but when you're talking about smell, I would assume you just have to like, let them smell the fragrance you made and then see what they think and then take their notes and then they would say something like, oh, we want it to be more fun.

And you're like, that's not a fun That's not a, a smell. What do you use? Exactly. Is that, is that kind of what

Saskia: happens? That's exactly it. So you, so using fun as an example, if someone says, I want a perfume that's fun or a smell that's fun, I'd be like, okay, are we talking about like a night out at, you know, a kid's party at Chuck E.

Cheese fun, which has, which has a, uh, an olfactory narrative, you know, you have birthday cake, uh, balloons, you know, pizza, um, filthy carpet, snotty children. I mean, there's some olfaction. in there that you can pick apart and sort of start to identify and try to create something. Or do you want like a night out at a, at Footsie's kind of fun, you know, which is like beer and, you know, it's a different olfactory sense scape.

So, so it really involves communication. And the good news is that, you know, the nonprofit is an educational nonprofit. So most of what I do is I'm educating. So I'm used to it. Um, uh, but, but it can definitely be challenging and ultimately. The only way to communicate smell is by getting your nose on the material.

Yeah. Conveying the name of the material, methylcyclopentanilone. Once you lock in your brain that that particular maple y burnt, you know, smell is methylcyclopentanilone, the communication gets a lot easier. Wow. Because I could be like, okay, well, I'm going to put some methylcyclopentanilone in here and you'll be like, yeah, exactly.

Or no, no, no, I prefer ethyl vanillin, whatever, you know. That's

Sidney: incredible that you just did that. And it's such an amazing background that you have, You know, being a PA and that sort of thing and to go to now knowing mesocyclopentanilone?

Saskia: Yeah, methylcyclopentanilone. Okay,

Sidney: great. Yeah, okay, perfect. It's

Saskia: maybe the most complicated one.

I should have picked something nicer. Well, no, no,

Sidney: no, it's totally fine. I think you said something about ethyl. The ethanol a second ago, which is a little vanilla and I'm trying to decipher them in in the limited Latin that I have. But it sounds like something with vanilla. Yes. Perfect.

Saskia: Correct. Yes.

Sidney: I got it.

Awesome. And then the other one was something methanol. I don't know.

Saskia: Methylcyclopentanolone is a. aromatic molecule that comes in a powder form, which is really annoying and, and basically smells like a sort of very strong, slightly burnt maple syrup smell. Oh, with other aspects, but like a kind of a burnt coffee note, you know, it's very distinctive.

It was one of the first molecules that I fell in love with when I first started. working in this field as a total novice. Okay. Like I had no idea what I was doing. Sure. Um, and I, I just fell in love with it and I didn't know how to make lab solutions. So I made a lab solution at 50%. It's usually like one or 10% or 0.

1% in alcohol. And, and so the first year of, of the Institute's life, the Institute, the whole floor, it was on at this building downtown. It all smelled like methylcyclopentanilone. So it's got this very strong early days association for me, at least with perfume. So that's why it came to mind anyway.

Sidney: Oh man, that's incredible.

And that's it. That just also sparked an interesting point where smells are so, so, so, so connected to memory. And I sometimes my Nana has been gone forever. For almost 30 years now, probably 30 years, but I still sometimes smell that like South Carolina cigarette smoking for 50, 60 years smell and like they're that musk, right?

That's so interesting. As you said, musk is so many like, Oh my God, Nana, like, where are you? And now it's an incredible thing. I mean, do you experience that a lot in your own work where all of a sudden you're like accidentally. experience a fragrance and then you're just like, Oh my gosh, that was what happened when I was 10 or that was what happened when I, you know, that kind of thing.

Yeah.

Saskia: I mean, it's interesting. There's, there's this, um, perfume critic called Luca Turin, who is a bio chemist is a biochemist. And he was asked this question once and he said, no, I don't experience that anymore because I'm so familiar with the smells as. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Less and less. So because now they're just reminding them me of themselves.

I know them as entities, not related to my own experience, but that that's also the flip side of working with with scent is some of the magic disappears. Wow.

Sidney: Yeah. That's an incredible

Saskia: experience. Yeah. Yeah. But I see enough people come in who are super new to to scent because most of what I do is education, as I mentioned already, like, yeah.

And so I witnessed this moment every day. You know, where someone just gets super like, Oh, my God, that reminds me so much of whatever, you know, um, and it typically goes straight back to deep childhood. And it's one of the reasons I love working with scent in the public sphere is that you super connect with people because you kind of bypass all the ego, all the front and get straight back to the core of what they're all about.

And that's, of course, thanks to these memories that you mentioned. So. It's pretty dope.

Sidney: I really like it. Yeah. I mean, that's yeah, absolutely. That is just sort of like, uh, I don't know. I love finding out that being a scent artist actually helps break down barriers in a way that, um, maybe we need in society, which I wasn't expecting out of this conversation.

Saskia: Yeah. I mean, that's one of the reasons I started it is, I mean, you've worked in media, I've worked in media, you know, you get into this sort of churn and burn of digital media and no hate. I mean, I consume it all the time. Yeah. You do it all the time. We produce it. Right. But, um, at the time when I was working at Current TV, you know, I was just, I was in charge of, um, outreach for what we called our viewer created content or VC Squared.

So I was constantly reaching out to people and having them send stuff in and assessing it and whatever, you know, always, always just constantly watching. And I felt like I was so, I was becoming a computer, you know, my, my experience of life was through the screen. And so one of the things that attracted me to Smell was the fact that you can't digitize it.

You can't convey it. You have to be there. Yeah. You know, you have to be in the moment and it's really embodied. In that way. And at the time, I really needed that, you know. Yeah.

Sidney: That's beautiful. It's funny you said, uh, you said VC squared. Yeah. Yeah. It's called, um, so now it's called UGC, which is user generated content.

Right. And it's such an interesting thing because you're absolutely right. Like, um, again, you're blowing my mind. This entire conversation. Yeah. You can't digitize smell. That's amazing. That's an amazing thing. Like that's, I don't know anything else that you can't... Maybe texture you can't digitize or well,

Saskia: I don't even touch because you have these sort of devices where you can plug it in and have I mean, they're being developed, you know, you see the haptics or whatever,

Sidney: you know, yeah, exactly,

Saskia: exactly.

But with smell, you know, the reason you it's failed so far, although people have tried is because there's no RGB of scent. You know, you can't just put three things together and get any number of combinations. You need every single individual molecule in order to recreate the smell of grass. So people have tried to create devices that allow you to convey scent, you know, over the internet.

Uh, and those devices rely on you both at both ends having the same cartridges and the cartridges tend to be pre fabricated smells. Um, Meaning that a perfumer created those smells and that's the smell of grass, according to that perfumer. So if I were to send you the smell of grass, said you and I would have this version of grass that this other person made, which is fine, but, but the point of scent is that it isn't generic.

Like the experience is so hyper personal. So maybe the grass I want to smell you has, I don't know, maybe there's like a rose petal in there. Maybe there's some variation and it's very specific. that can't yet be conveyed digitally because you would have to have on your end and I would have to have on my end, a massive organ of aromatics spraying it out and no one has the space for that in their homes.

So not to say people aren't trying, I mean, they're miniaturizing this, but as of yet, scent is something where you really just have to be there, you

Sidney: know? Yeah, that's incredible. Which I like. Yeah, I mean, I, I really now can only think of like that five, five D Disney experience or whatever that like wants to port in, you know, different, uh, experiences that sort of like has those, um, yeah, like the vibrating chair or the, or the wind blowing or the mist hitting your face or something like that.

Right. But yeah. Smell is always associated with a negative smell in that experience and or like a flowery smell or like a fruity smell sometimes, and those are all very like, I don't want to say basic, but they seem very like, um, possible things to convey. But what you're describing that, like. Grass smell it also smells different in different regions of the world, right?

So that's wild to think about that You're constantly trying to like if you are trying to digitally do it You're constantly trying to convey the smell that you're experiencing But if I have grass that's different from the grass back east where I grew up, that's not The same smell. That's just not the same smell.

Saskia: So, and that presents a secondary challenge, which is your perception of the smell of grass is based on your memories and your experience and whatever. And mine is based on mine. So, and there's no way of comparing really, you know, but, um, we, it's sort of like, is your blue, the same blue as my blue? We don't know, you know, with smell, um, that is such

Sidney: a crazy sentence.

He just said, that's so true. Like, that's a. Yeah, I mean, green is green, but is it green? I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. That's amazing.

Saskia: Wow. Yeah, I get lost in these things and it can kind of melt your brain. So at some point you just have to be like, whatever, let's move on. Yeah,

Sidney: you're just like, all right, whatever.

I was asked to make a fragrance for this showroom opening up. I just need to focus on that and not think about the existentialism that is. Color and smell and spirits. Yeah. Okay. Sure. Yeah. Okay. Um, so let's get back to something normal that can kind of be explained. Uh, when you're combining these smells, right?

You said alcohol. You said that sort of thing like so. So how do you because you're saying molecules, you're saying aromatic molecules. You can't see a molecule, but they are. Uh, delivered to you some way that is fragrance, right? It is a visible thing that you are combining. So what is that process?

Saskia: So what I'm looking at typically is a little bottle that's filled with a liquid, um, and the liquid is, let's say, 90% alcohol and 10% aromatic molecule.

That molecule comes to me when I order it in any number of forms. It can be liquid, it can be powder, uh, it can be solid. And the challenge is, is it as to why it looks liquid or powder or solid, I have no idea. Like I can't even go there. I can't even think of the chemistry. I'm sure there's someone who knows better than I put it that way, but, but I do know what I get and it's one of these things.

And so the first challenge is to put that in a solution so you can work with that. Um, and then once it's in solution, you have your, your scent organ, you know, it's known as a scent organ. And so once you have your scent organ, you basically have, um, I guess that would be the equivalent of your piano keys, you know, or your, your paint palette or whatever, your painter.

These are your components with which you can create, you know, and so whether you're a, you know. a perfumer in the in the traditional French sense of the word, whether you're a perfumer in the Mesopotamian sense of the word, even more traditional, whether you're a perfumer in the modern sense of the word by which I understand it, which you're working with smells in a predetermined Uh huh.

The process is the same. You know, you're working with these aromatics, molecules, whatever you want to call them, and you're combining them. So what's cool is through history, you know, you see this sort of trajectory of people who have worked with smell, you know, from, like I mentioned, early Mesopotamia, pre common era cultures to Egypt, Rome, you know, Greece.

North Africa, you name it. You know, like this practice has spanned generations. Um, that's incredible. And it's been roughly

Sidney: the same, but you said that. So, so you said that you get the chemicals and a lot of different states and then you combine them into this scent organ and that scent organ. Their vials and then you go, you kind of put them in there and then you play the you play the sense

Saskia: like, I mean, you can think about it that way.

I mean, sure. Yeah, that's I play the sense, but but technically I. Maybe it's more like cooking. Um, you know, you have your spices and you put them together, uh, and then you have your stew, you know, and you make your recipe for your stew and it, you know, you have a pinch of turmeric, I don't know, whatever, a teaspoon of saffron if you have that kind of money.

Yeah. Wow. And that process is very similar to cooking actually. Wow. Except only, only through the nose.

Sidney: So is it more based around like enclosing the smell into like some sort of like a vial or like a beaker or something like, okay, let's use this as like the test, the test for it.

Saskia: Yeah. You know, most of the things I produce end up in some sort of, you know, container that contains them and therefore the smell is contained and that's, that's the way you want it, you know?

Um, there's another, there's another issue that I think people don't think about with smell very often is the, is the issue of agency, you know, like, so. Um, if, um, if said you, you're like wearing a shirt that I hate, you know, not that, not that you are. No,

Sidney: I mean, I get it. They're very loud. I get it.

Saskia: I can just be like, sorry, I'm not looking at that, you know, right?

Yeah, exactly. I close my eyes. But if you're wearing a smell that I hate, um, or, or whatever triggers me in some way, all I can do is leave, you know, so, so there's, there's definitely this issue that. When you're dealing with smell, you're, you're, you're dealing in a medium that people have no choice but to experience if, if they're near it.

So I think for a lot of perfumers and artists, you know, they sort of forget that. Wow. Especially artists. They're like, I want to fill a museum with the smell of poo, you know, because it's like, you know, it makes my point. And you're like, dude, people have to like, walk through that museum, you know, right. So it does pay to be kind and, and thoughtful with, with how you project and, and work with smell.

And maybe this is again, just one of these things that I think about more than other people because I'm working typically in the public sphere, you know, but I do think we forget about that a little bit that, that these molecules go up your nose, whether or not you want them to, you know, so that's true.

It's good to be kind.

Sidney: You know, that's very true. Is there a kind smell that you would consider? Like, what is a kind smell? Well, something

Saskia: everybody seems to like is vanilla, you know, no one gets offended by vanilla. So there are some smells that are universally pretty popular. Um, lavender, most people seem to like lavender.

Um, although some folks claim allergy, you know, feel, feel sensitivity to it. Um, you know, the, the things that have withstood the test of time, frankincense, myrrh, rose, jasmine, um, cedar, you know, sandalwood. These are, these are scents that you see in historic texts dating for millennia. And there's a reason for that.

We just, humans like them somehow.

Sidney: I mean, it does. It's interesting because, and then on the flip side of that, is there like an offensive scent?

Saskia: Yeah. Well, you know,

Sidney: like what, like what, what's a newer, a newer. So, okay. This is. Oh my God, I'm having so much, sorry, I'm having so much like realization. So people invent scents and you're saying newer molecules exist that have not been experienced by people.

Saskia: I know this, this, when I first started, this is one of the things that I was like, what is going on?

How can you invent a smell? Like it totally blew my mind. Yeah, exactly. How do you? Now it's like a matter of course. But yeah, well, so these chemists working in the lab, you know, um, and this started in the early 1800s for a little historical context, but really the mid to late 1800s, it started hitting its stride.

But these chemists figured out how to replicate aspects, originally how to replicate aspects of a natural smell. So for instance, there was a thing called a tonka bean that smells vanillic. And some chemists were in the lab in France and Germany, and they figured out how to take out one aspect, one. Like, think of it as a Lego in the building in the Lego house.

You take out one Lego from the Lego house, and then you figure out how to replicate that Lego without the Lego house. So this sort of divorces aromatic from nature. And that started this process through the 20th century where people are developing new molecules in laboratories. So they're literally inventing new smells.

Yeah. Uh, and that's, it blows my mind, you know, I still think it's super cool. I mean,

Sidney: that's, that's beautiful. That's a beautiful thing. Yeah. We can invent smells. I don't know. It's just like a

Saskia: wow. And then there's, there's trends within that or needs. So over the course of the 20th century, the trend has been to create aromatics that are stronger and more tenacious, which leads me to your original question, which is some of the newer molecules that were developed in the last 20, 30 years, um, are, are so over the top potent and so over the top tenacious that some folks really hate them.

You know, I'd swear if I could, I'd say they really effing hate them, but I know you go for

Sidney: it. Yeah. If they really fucking hate them. Fuck it. Yeah. That's

Saskia: really fucking hate them. Yeah. Yeah. And one of them is something called Amber Extreme, which is used in a lot of contemporary men's, particularly fragrances oriented at men, um, or whatever your definition of man is.

That's a different conversation. Yeah. But so Amber Extreme is a, I mean, it's extreme. It's in the name. It's just a really intense, potent. strong, uh, dry, woody, ambery note that, um, is very useful and kind of a genius thing, but also can clear a room because it's just so strong, you know, people are just like,

Sidney: yeah, that's only a certain amount of solution that you can add to it.

And it's like, dude,

Saskia: I work with it at like, Point one percent in alcohol and it still can take over a formula. It's just, it's, I don't know what the equivalent would be. It's like if you put a really over, over the top spice in your stew and everything tastes like that spice. Sure. If you put a pinch. Oh my gosh.

Some of those can be harsh. Not, not picking on Amber Extreme. It has its uses for sure.

Sidney: I mean, so that's interesting that I mean, again, so as, as someone that doesn't come from a, um, well versed scent background, you know, you're, you're saying these things kind of like take over the solutions and now I'm thinking about like, is my deodorant, does that have some of that in there?

Because I feel like it's possibly, yeah, I feel like, I feel like, uh, quote, you know, yeah. In the air, manly deodorant always has that sort of like, I would say musky sort of like earthy smell to it that maybe that's what that is. And I'm not sure. I mean, I think I shout out native deodorant. Um, it's really good for you.

You should use it. It's really good. I took a second, but now I'd like all. Yeah, no, I'm into, I'm into their deodorants. Yeah, no, it's so good. Um, no, it's not a, this is not a pay promotion. We just love native. Um, but it's. It's one of those things where it's like, I usually choose, like, the male fragrances are usually like cedar and, or, um, eucalyptus, is it eucalyptus, some eucalyptus and mint or something like that.

Yeah. Um, so it's interesting that you would say that the offensive. Obviously, the first offensive thing that I think is, like you said, poo, but the actual most offensive thing that you can think of is this fucking invented aromatic thing that just is too much. We've gone too far. God is not happy.

Saskia: And if, if, if there were a human equivalent, it would be like, what are those mid nineties Bros.

Who's like really into extreme sports and like, oh, sure. Takes over the room. You know what I mean? , like, it's just, it's just like, dude chill. Like shut up already. Mountain. You know? Mountain. Yeah. Mountain dude. Loving. Exactly. Or ex early X Games. We all know Extreme, you know, and no hate. It's all good. They have their, their place in this world, you know?

And so does this molecule, but it's tough.

Sidney: Yeah. Those people, those people are very, uh, they exist here and they're important and they serve a purpose, but man, do they take over the room?

Saskia: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

Sidney: All right, well, we're going to take a quick break and then, uh, we'll be right back with the amazing Saskia.

Hey, everyone. Thanks for learning with me. I really appreciate you listening to this episode and learning all you can about your olfactory senses. Don't forget to rate and review this podcast. Spread the love. Share with everyone. Be honest. What do you think? Leaving a review really, really helps grow the show.

So thank you so much. And don't forget Patreon. It's here. You can become a patron, become a rascal, a member of the community. You get early access to episodes. You check out the bonus episodes, including a whole other monthly show with me and my friends, a super cool discord and live streams and so much more.

So come on over to Patreon, become a rascal. I'll see you over there. And now, back to the wonderful, talented Saskia. So, everyone, we are back with Saskia Wilson Brown. Thank you so much for being here. Do you mind if I tell the audience what you just did during the break?

Saskia: Oh yeah, no, I'm not ashamed of being a smoker.

Sidney: So you are a smoker, which again, no hate. I was a smoker. You know, sometimes I smell cigarettes and I fondly remember what was and what I sometimes wish I still had. But as a smoker, the first question that came to mind is, does that affect your fragrance ability?

Saskia: Um, probably. Yeah, I'm sure it does. Um, my sense of smell, I'm sure is.

I mean, okay, let's not kid ourselves. Smoking is bad.

Sidney: Smoking is bad. That's what they say. Yeah.

Saskia: Here's what I rely on. And this is, this is where the science comes in my favor. So there's something called selective anosmia. Wow. And what selective anosmia is, is that your, your, your brain becomes, uh, anosmic, therefore can't smell selected materials or whatever.

And what happens when you're wearing perfume or when you smoke cigarettes or, or when you have aromatic stuff around you is at some point you stop perceiving it. Yes. Um, which is why, you know, as an ex smoker, I'm sure you remember when someone, when you first quit and someone came after a smoke break, you could, you're like, geez, man, did I smell like that?

You know, you didn't notice it on yourself because you had selective anosmia to your own smoke. Yeah. And so a lot of perfumers smoke, um, largely because a lot of perfume, the perfume industry has, you know, more recently historically been based in France. Sure. And there's a culture of smoking. And, and, um, and I think what these perfumers and myself rely on is the fact that you just don't smell it on yourself, you know, so it does.

I'm sure it affects me, but I don't perceive the

Sidney: effect. Yeah. I mean, that's a really good point because I remember when you could smoke inside and especially in Virginia, we could still smoke inside until my twenties. And that was like, you never knew. You were in the middle of that smell until you got home the next day and it was like your clothes smell like it.

Yeah. And you're just like, wait, what? Or, you know, you, you really didn't, you didn't know that you smell like cigarettes because, um, it's just something you experience. It's just that that first, uh, hit and you're just like, well, Yeah, I guess that's what a cigarette tastes like, smells like, and I don't know.

So it's totally fine. Wow. That's incredible. I didn't actually even think about how you just don't smell some things. I mean, you must not smell certain things all the time now because you're so used to smells. Maybe not because they're not on you. Is that the difference?

Saskia: If you're So if

I've been working on a fragrance, you know, and I'm working with really strong materials like our old friend methylcyclopentaniline. Classic. And

Sidney: others. Yeah. I know how to say it. I definitely know You could.

Saskia: Yeah. I don't notice them in the air after a little bit because, you know, I just, my brain just stops telling me methylcyclopentaniline.

But if a friend were to come join me, you know, at work or, you know, whatever, walk in the room, they would smell it quite strongly for at least a few minutes and then they'd also stop noticing it. So having said that, there are molecules that are. The people are anosmic to as a rule, not just from exposure, but they literally can't smell them at all.

And these can be often the musk molecules. Um, some people just can't perceive musks, you know, so, so what the perfumers will do is they'll put many musk molecules, assuming that there's one that they'll, they'll perceive. And just sort of count on the fact that one out of five will be perceptible to the broad public.

So, um, it's not uncommon to have these selective anosmias. Wow.

Sidney: Selective. So there's selective anosmias that are needed. Rather than, um, are frowned upon.

Saskia: Yeah, they're like evolutionary, I think, you know, I think it has to do with just, uh, how much processing power our brain has to spare. And, uh, and if you're spending all that processing power, I know I'm simplifying drastically, but just to make it easy.

I mean,

Sidney: yeah, I mean, please, I, I, you could say. You can say literally anything and I would just believe you. So, yeah, but someone

Saskia: out there would be like, actually,

Sidney: well, then come back on the podcast and we'll talk about it. Yeah.

Saskia: Neuroscientists. I know I'm simplifying, but point is that if you're spending all that processing power, you know, saying smell, smell, smell, smell, smell, maybe you're not perceiving other things.

You need to perceive like danger or whatever it is, you know. So so it's actually I think it's an evolutionary trick. Our minds do on us that we have. We tune out smell after a little while.

Sidney: Yeah, I mean, I know certain smells, even thinking about them now, uh, make me nauseous, right? Right.

Saskia: What smells out of curiosity?

Sidney: Oh, I would love to talk about them. Um, so it's mostly rotten flowers is like my big thing. Rotten flowers to me is the absolute worst. Smell it is just something about it. Just like destroys me. I mean, I can't even it got to the point now where, you know, if my wife has flowers or, you know, someone sends us flowers or I, I could maybe even buy my wife some flowers.

Um, yeah, why, why not? I could do that. Um, But they, they deteriorate and go rotten, then I need her to take care of it because if I get anywhere near that vial of, you know, or that vase or something that has that smell in it, I just, I start to gag and it's just like next level.

Saskia: It's pretty rank. And it's rank because of a molecule called indole.

We know why. Indole. It's a very specific molecule. Yeah. That is produced by rotten flowers. It also is produced by humans as we decay and die eventually. Yeah. Um, and indole is sort of the thing that adds that, that funk. Um, and, and by the way, in small doses, it's super necessary without indole, a jasmine is like a Barbie doll.

Jasmine. Really? Has no teeth. Yeah. So you need a little bit of that funk, but as they decay, it becomes. A bigger funk and it's a pretty gnarly molecule. We have it at the institute and it's, I bust it out with, uh, with trepidation sometimes like, okay, here we go. So

Sidney: it's, and I feel like it's specifically designed to make us afraid of it or like make us to know that that's bad.

That's a decaying thing. Yeah.

Saskia: Don't drink that flower

Sidney: juice. Exactly. Yeah. Don't drink that flower juice. If you go near that flower juice, you die or something very bad will happen. And it's, I guess it's the same thing with. Death is like if you go near that decaying body, something bad might happen and that's like a very, it's like a rotten smell, right?

It's a,

Saskia: I think again, this is an evolutionary thing that saves us from, from our own worst impulses, you know? Oh my

Sidney: gosh, that's incredible. So indole is, is my, is my nemesis.

Saskia: Indole is your nemesis. You don't like it. I hate

Sidney: it. Even with my daughter's, my daughter's 10 months old and one day she'll listen to this and go, Dad, stop talking about that.

But even with my 10 month old daughter, it's like I have to stay away from Her poop sometimes. Yeah, obviously, like, there's a reason for that. But it's something about maybe it is indol where it's just like, like, this is bad. Like, you shouldn't be near this.

Saskia: Yeah, well, I mean, there's a number there's cattle, which is found in poop, you know, which which is responsible for that poop smell.

Um, yeah, cadaverine, you know, there's a there's a chemical name for that, that I don't remember right now. But there's there's a number of these molecules that we produces we decay or where we produce, you know, in our poo or, um, and they're part of, they're part of the setscape,

Sidney: you know? Okay. Well, okay. So while, okay, maybe this is something I shouldn't ask, but I have to, can you explain to me why my daughter's God, I really hope she never listens to this.

Saskia: It's okay. I mean, our job is to embarrass her. So,

Sidney: yeah, right. Exactly. Um, can you explain to me why I perceive her poop sometimes as smelling like mashed potatoes?

Saskia: I mean, I would, I would guess that there's probably, um, the pyrazines that you find a class of molecule called pyrazines in potatoes. I don't know.

I'd have to look it up. But I would guess that there's, there's, um, there's, look, there's similar molecules in all sorts of weird things like the, the smell of earth and the smell of beets. You know, the red beets that you eat, it's the main aromatic component for both is the same molecule, it's geosmin, you know, so, so there are things that have nothing to do with one another that share molecular components and they have a similarity in smell, you know, so it doesn't surprise me at all that the poop and the mashed potatoes, uh, dog paws and, and What is it?

Corn chips or popcorn? People often, again, there's, there's a molecule in common. I mean, it's, it doesn't surprise me is my point.

Sidney: Wow. That's incredible. Cause like, I thought I was crazy. I was like, cause it's like one of those things where it's like, you know, she's a baby. So she has very interesting bowel movements.

And then sometimes I'm just like, why does it smell like mashed potatoes? Like, God, this is crazy. It doesn't surprise me. And then I see it. It's like, that is not mashed potatoes. No, don't

Saskia: eat that. Oh my gosh. That's where maybe our evolution fails when it comes to babies, because, uh,

Sidney: you know. Everything is so cute and like, they need help.

Yeah,

Saskia: you might find yourself engaging with something, you may be like, messing with the poop where you shouldn't touch

Sidney: it. I know. That's actually a very interesting point, because I think babies are just so like, they're so helpless that you'll do anything to help them. Anything. And it's just like, this crazy evolutionary thing where, you know, me, um.

Me being afraid of these things. I'm like, no, no, no. I need to help my daughter. But anyway.

Saskia: Yeah. And, and maybe that's the definition of parenthood is like bypassing your own self interests and health in some cases and life in some cases too. There's probably a reason for this evolution from an evolutionary perspective.

I don't know. I'm not an evolutionist. What's the word? Evolutionary.

Sidney: Evolutionarian. I don't know. Whatever. Um, all right, well let's move on to the game. Uh, so basically we are going to play a game which is called which scent ingredient is real. And I'm sure that you have probably the best understanding in the world of this.

So immediately you're probably going to say this is real. This is not real, but I have no idea. So the first big, the first one we have is wet dog or cat anal gland secretion. Is that real or not?

Saskia: Civic cat. Yeah. Technically not as cat, but yeah, that's real.

Sidney: Cat anal gland is real.

Saskia: With the technicality that it's a civet is actually the weasel family, but they call it a civic cat.

Nevermind technicality. It's real.

Sidney: It's real. Okay. All right. Well, all right. Yeah, that's actually that's actually correct. You said civic cat. Yes, the exotics wild civic cats anal gland secretion is behind a few famous sense in the fragrance world. Although the initial Thought of an animal's quote spray to mark their territory conjures up no thoughts of sexiness.

It is known for its rather poignant, uh, scent, yet that when tempered with time. Is in fact a rather sultry, intriguing musk. Thanks to its not so kind extraction process, this is now a scent that is synthetically replicated. Thank God. So they don't, they don't express anymore. They

Saskia: do, but you can't get it in the States.

Sidney: Oh, sure. Yeah. Great. Just, just like, um, um, unpasteurized cheeses. Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. Um, all right. So we have chicken eggs or fish eggs. Which one is it? Is it real?

Saskia: There's seaweed. There's ambergris, which comes from a whale. Um, I'm going to say I've never come across Fish hugs is an aromatic component. Okay.

Chicken eggs either, but I don't know. Anything's possible. I'm, I'm gonna go with, I don't think it's real, but who knows?

Sidney: So this seems like it's something that is long gone now, but, uh, this intro says with perfumes, long history of noble use. It's no surprise that caviar, another luxury delicacy, would find its way into perfumes and cologne harvested from fish eggs.

Caviar doesn't have a distinct scent, rather perfume makes its use, perfume makers use it to give the ingredients more body and substance. The ingredient is used in diesel bad, known for its masculine and daring scent, diesel

Saskia: bad. I've heard of this. Wow. Amazing. I learned something from you today.

Sidney: Well, I appreciate that.

I'm learning existentialism from you. I'm learning so many things for you. So Diesel Bad sounds, no, Diesel Bad sounds, um, uh, annoying and offensive. Yeah. Maybe. Okay. Anyway. Space Roses or Buried Gold? Which one is real or not real? And have you, have you...

Saskia: Um, this is an easy one. Space roses is real because IFF sent a rose up to space with NASA and then did a headspace analysis on how the rose smelled in space and then turned that into an aromatic component.

Cool.

Sidney: That's really cool. I didn't know they did that. And you're absolutely right. In 1998, the International Flavor of Fragrances, IFF, Shout out IFF Corporation put a rose on the Discovery Space Shuttle to study the effects of gravity on its scent. As it turns out, the resulting ingredient possessed a floral, woody, and spiritual fragrance.

It was then incorporated into Shishodo Zen, I think, I don't think I said that correctly, complete with a futuristic bottle. Wow. So Space Roses, that's a real scent that the IFF created?

Saskia: Yeah, I think they like, they did a chemical analysis and then they, they recreated it.

Sidney: All right. So this last one, uh, pulls from a piece of media that I, uh, saw, but...

The scent of a virgin or human anal gland secretion. Which one is real or not real? The scent

Saskia: of a virgin I know was created for a story, perfume story of a murderer. I mean, I would say if I had to choose between the two, the first is real, but probably both are real. But yeah, I only know the first.

Sidney: Also human anal gland secretion.

I don't.

Saskia: I mean, there's a whole bunch of perfumers that are working with kink and, you know, leather and BDSM and stuff. So sure. I mean, I would say that actually makes sense. Yeah. This French perfume called Secrétion Magnifique maybe used it, maybe could have, but I don't know of it as a fact. So I'll say the first is real.

Sidney: Wow. Okay. Well, let's go with it. The idea behind the scent note may have been inspired by the Patrick Siskind novel Perfume. Uh, where a young perfumist sets out to capture the scent of a woman which leads, which lends the tale to death and decay, but we'd like to think Otherwise, as it turns out, this scent note does indeed exist, thanks to the IFF, which used a seemingly less horrifying method to capture samples via a polymer needle, uh, finding ways to chemically recreate the scent.

I don't but it's just a human! Right. Virgin's just human.

Saskia: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you look, you get into the history of commodification of women here, but I know the perfumer who did that and, and they just did a bunch of headspace analysis on, on young people, you know, we did a version of that ourselves in Amsterdam where we wrapped, um, Specifically because in the novel it's redheaded virgins.

Yes. We wrapped redheads, not virgins 'cause it's Amsterdam, but redheads in, um, in, in gauze and, and fat and tried to capture their smells to see if there's any truth to it. But

Sidney: was that, was there any truth to it? 'cause I watched the movie and I really enjoyed the movie. Actually.

Saskia: It was a, yeah, I did too actually.

Everyone hates it. I loved

Sidney: it. I really, really loved that movie. Like, it was just like a, um, I don't know, a beautiful story for some reason. Like I was just like, I don't know. I mean, for anyone spoilers, but the way that he just like, couldn't take it anymore and poured the scent on himself. And then he was literally murdered.

Like he was killed. I was just like, Oh, so he was eaten by the crowd because he smelled so good. Yeah. I mean, you, yeah, you kind of think of it, but it's just like, I don't know. I love that movie. So I'm glad that you did too. As a professional said artists, but that's amazing. But you said you actually did it when you tried to do it.

So yeah,

Saskia: not murder funsies like, yeah, um, we didn't murder them and they weren't virgins, but yeah, we, we had these. These redheads wrap, they volunteered, you know, through an ad we placed in Amsterdam and we wrapped them in gauze with my friend Kendra Gaeta, it was her idea. And she did most of the wrapping and then we had them sit in the sweltering sun for three or four hours and then we unwrapped it and we captured the, the aromatic, you know, slurry or whatever.

And then we, we processed that and tried to create the smell. There was not much. I mean, there was some human funk in there, but nothing that was specific to redheads. Gosh,

Sidney: that's amazing. Wow. I'm so happy that you actually tried it because now I'm going to text my buddy that we watched it with and we were like, Hey, actually, this doesn't work.

So just letting you know, um,

Saskia: well, murder some

Sidney: redheads. And of course, and yeah, of course, um, but you shouldn't do, by the way, don't, don't do that people. Um, Well, that's the game. Thank you for playing. Is this real or not real? Uh, and I can't believe some of these are actually used. Cat anal gland, which is civet, right?

Uh, space roses, uh, the scent of a virgin, and fish eggs. Who knew? The fish eggs surprises me. That's an email. Fish eggs. Caviar. Because I know it tastes very intense, but I didn't know it could smell very intense. It doesn't really have a smell. Yeah. Um, well, that is. The program, that's the show. What'd you, what'd you think

Saskia: Saskia?

I you. Thank you for having

Sidney: me. Absolutely. I'm so happy that you feel that way. I feel the exact same way. Um, what would you like to promote before we let you go? Um, anything in particular? Any last words? Final life tips about being a scent artist or in general? Uh, let the people know what you have going on.

Saskia: Uh, nothing to promote, but maybe a reminder that, um, perfume or the practice of working with scent is a global and, uh, long lasting practice. And there's no reason why you, you know, whoever you are out there don't have, should, should not engage with this. Like it's not, it's not as exclusionary as you think.

So if you're interested in working with smell, by all means, work with smell, it's fun.

Sidney: Oh, my gosh, that's so great. Well, thank you so much for opening up that door of information for everyone. I think it's such an important thing to allow that space to exist. Um, and yeah, that's incredible. I might, um, come visit you at the institute and be like, Hey, I need to experience this.

Saskia: Bring your, bring your little baby. We can assess the smells and

Sidney: compare. Oh my God, I am so excited to tell my wife about this different thing that like, it actually, I'm excited to tell her that it makes sense. That's what I'm excited about.

Saskia: And also it's for the dirty diapers. Finally, that's good. There you

Sidney: go.

Yeah. Um, well, yeah, where can we find you? Where, where can people follow you if they want more information about you?

Saskia: Yeah. Art and olfaction on Instagram or our website art and olfaction. com. Not old fashioned. That's something else. Old faction. old

Sidney: faction. Which is the olfactory. The olfactory.

Saskia: Yes, exactly.

Sidney: Right. Perfect. Well that's an, an amazing name for a website and thank you so much for being on the show. Um, Saki Wilson Brown, everyone.

That was incredible. Thank you so much for joining us Saskia. I learned so much about mashed potatoes. And poop, and, uh, scents that I I didn't even know you could create. The idea to me that humans create scents that are specifically designed to be offensive and also be very nice are just incredible and thank you for relieving me of this stress that I have.

That is, why do I fear? Rotten flowers. It's normal, and it's okay, so thank you Saskia so, so much for that. Don't forget, if you have a question for me, or you would like to maybe recommend a guest that we should have on the show, Please, please, please shoot us an email, eli30 at human content. com And if you want to just chat with me, I'm Sydney Raz, all over socials, you can...

send me a tweet, send me an Instagram, uh, send me a TikTok and, and regram my tweets. That's what the kids say. Or you can come hang out with all of the cool human content podcast family on Instagram or TikTok, human content pods. That's at human content pods. Really appreciate you leaving a review wherever you listen to podcasts.

It really helps grow the show. If you subscribe and comment on your favorite podcasting app or on YouTube we might give you a shout out. So just, just keep that, keep that in mind. If you love the sound of my voice, but you yearn to see my beautiful handsome face, full videos are up on YouTube every Thursday at Sidney Raz.

S I D N E Y R A Z. And Patreon, don't forget, Patreon. Come join us. Come on over. Come be a rascal. Come support the show. Thank you so much to all of the patrons. Thank you so much to all of the patrons who get tons of cool perks like bonus episodes, hang out with the Eli 30 member community, the rascals. We have a great private discord and I'm active in it.

Yes, it is really me. Early ad free episodes, interactive Q and a live stream events, and so so much more. That's patreon. com slash Eli 30, or go to Eli 30 dot. Thank you so much for listening. I'm your host Sydney Raskine. Again, thank you so much for joining us. Our guest Saskia Wilson Brown. Our executive producers are Sydney Raskine, Aaron Rubin Corny, Rob Goldman, and Shanti Brook.

Our editor is Andrew Sims. Our engineer is Jason Portizzo. Our music is by Omer Benzvi. Our theme song is by Dr. Music. Explain Like I'm 30 is a human content production and remember hydration equals happiness. Explain

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