Avi: How would I clean when a porn set gets dirty? What should I use to build stilts that are sturdy? Where could I breed a new species of birdie? Explain like I'm 30.

Sidney: Hello, everybody, and welcome to Explain Like I'm 30. I am your host, Sidney Razkind, a. k. a. Sidney Raz, all over the internet. And what's going on in the world right now?

What's the zeitgeist stuff? I don't know, because I've been traveling all week. That's right. I went back east to visit family for some family stuff. And as you do with family, and then I came home to Los Angeles, and I gotta say, Los Angeles is pretty different than the rest of the country. I kinda had a little bit of a moment where I was like, wow, it is very different here, and I forgot that.

The key difference kind of is for me, is like, I was at a restaurant, and I realized how much gluten free and vegan things I could order. Um, which is great for all of the people that are dietarily restricted like that, but it was a very different experience for me to be like, Oh right, Los Angeles is its own thing.

Wow, this is crazy. Because I don't, I don't really know what's happening in the world right now, except for this whole alien thing. I guess aliens are the talk of the town, but nobody really cares about it because they admitted it. The government admitted that they have aliens. But guess what? K was our response.

Alright, cool. But I'm talking to Avi Loeb. The guy that you really do want to talk to about extraterrestrial life. He is the chair of Harvard's astronomy department. He has a new book coming out, Interstellar, The Search for Extraterrestrial Life and Our Future in the Stars. That's right. On the podcast today, he's the guy that you actually want to talk to about UFOs.

He's the guy that may or may not have found something. that he couldn't disclose to us, that he's gonna be talking about today on the podcast. This is one of the more philosophical and fun conversations I've ever had in my life. I feel very honored that I got to speak with him for as long as I did. This is probably one of the coolest things I've ever done.

So I, just, let's get to do it on the podcast today. Avi Loeb, everyone.

Professor, please introduce yourself. And I know you have a book coming out, we can get to that in a second, but, uh, you're the man to talk to right now about everything that is interesting happening in the news when it comes to interstellar life. So please, let's, let's get into it.

Avi: My name is Avi Loeb, and if you want the short version, uh, you can think of me as a curious farm boy.

Curious farm

Sidney: boy, . Yeah,

Avi: I can explain. I grew up on a, I grew up on a farm and uh, uh, I used to drive a tractor to the hills of the village and read the philosophy books every. weekend and I was connected to nature, less so than to people. Um, and, uh, it's reflected in the way I think right now. I am not subscribed to any social media outlet and, um, I, uh, am guided by evidence rather than by what people say.

I don't really care how many likes I have on Twitter. I'm not trying to maximize that. Uh, interestingly, you know, um, other people care about what I say, but. That's not at all my motivation.

Sidney: Oh, really? Well, I mean, but it is an important motivation because you do want your word to get out there. You do want the, the information that you have now to get out there about life, right?

New life. And that's important.

Avi: Well, um, it's important just because, um, common sense is not common. So, uh, uh, if everyone would, uh, understand the basic premise of what I'm advocating, which is basically to attend to evidence, to be open minded. We are not the smartest kid on the cosmic block necessarily.

You know, that's an extraordinary claim. It's very presumptuous of us to say that we are alone in the universe. That is an extraordinary claim, and it's not justified. because we haven't searched. So if we do search for our neighbors, uh, if everyone would believe that it's natural to do that, that since we sent out five probes to interstellar space over the past half century, there might be others out there who did the same.

And there are billions of planets like the earth around stars like the sun in the Milky Way galaxy alone. So that means we should be open minded to the possibility that they. May have launched probes, uh, that would have reached us by now because most stars form billions of years before the sun. If that was, uh, common wisdom, if everyone would say, yeah, that's natural, if everyone would say, yeah, most likely we are not alone, uh, especially in academia.

then I wouldn't need to advocate anything. I would prefer to be quiet and just do my work and in collaboration with everyone. But since it's not common sense to, to many other people, I find the need to explain it. But it would save me a lot of time if everyone would understand it from the start, I should say.

Sidney: But that's, that's interesting because in this, all of these, all of these discussions and all of these news outlets that are discussing now life and all of the congressional hearings that are now talking about it, really what people just want is that, is that pictorial proof, right? They want that high definition video proof.

But if you just sort of like, from my perspective, Until that happens, it's like, why wouldn't there be, right? Why wouldn't there be life on other parts of this huge, massive universe that we call home, right? There's no question to my mind. It's just like, you need that HD camera to prove it. Like,

Avi: that's the whole thing.

But the point is, to get the evidence, you really need to seek it. You need to go out to your backyard. And look for any tennis ball that was thrown by a neighbor. You can't just sit at home and say, Oh, there is nobody around me. Just like Enrico Fermi did in Los Alamos 70 years ago. He said, where is everybody?

But the point is, why would everybody sit next to Enrico Fermi at that point in time in Los Alamos? I mean, they don't care so much about us. Just think about it. Yeah, exactly. Space is vast and, and... So it resembles a single person, uh, staying at home and saying, I have no partner. Of course, if you don't go to dating sites, if you don't check around, then you will never have no partners.

Uh, but, um, if you're not seeking evidence, it's a self fulfilling prophecy. And that's the mistake made until recently. that the evidence was not seeked. And then people said, Oh, look, we have no evidence, but of course, if we don't search for it, we won't have it. My point is extraordinary evidence requires extraordinary funding.

I mean, you need to put money into it. And in science, money is being put into lots of things, including the search for the nature of what Most of the matter in the universe is, it's called dark matter. We haven't witnessed it in the solar system. We know that 83% of all matter in the universe is of a substance that we've never witnessed.

And there are billions of dollars that were spent on that. So what, and that is much less of interest to the general public than asking, are we alone? And zero dollars was spent on searching. You know, four objects in our backyard that may have arrived from a neighbor. And only over the past decade, astronomers discovered the first interstellar objects.

And I went to the Pacific Ocean for two weeks. to look for the materials from the first interstellar meteor that we discovered with my student. And, um, you know, that was a lot of effort. And before I went, there were people, my colleagues, who said, why are you wasting your time? Why are you wasting money and effort on going after this object?

Probably the government is wrong, but even if it's right about identifying this. Object. Mm-hmm. . Then, uh, the chance of you finding anything on the ocean floor, two kilo more than a mile deep. Yeah. Uh, is zero. Uh, and I said, well, if you don't search, you won't find it. And by the way, I'm not asking you to do anything.

You can just sit back and relax and, uh, you know, and I'm not taking money out of your dark matter research. Uh, and uh, amazingly enough, we went there and we found something. And not only we found something, we already. analyzed some of it. Uh, I cannot talk about the details because they will all appear in a scientific paper that we hope to submit in a month, but, um, it's exciting.

Sidney: Yeah. I mean, I think the material search is something that I never actually thought about because we're always expecting the UFO to be in the sky when we have a camera pointed at it, but that doesn't actually make sense when you think about it like that.

Avi: Well, it depends really. There are two types of, um, uh, technological gadgets that you can imagine.

Uh, one type is of the, uh, nature of the probes that we send to interstellar space, you know, uh, Voyager 1, Voyager 2, Pioneer 10, Pioneer 11, New Horizons. When they exit the solar system into interstellar space, it will take them 10, 000 years from now. Uh, there will be... non functional. They will be space trash.

And most of the objects that we find in interstellar space from other civilizations that preceded us is space trash. It accumulates just like plastics in the ocean over cosmic history. And, uh, you know, it doesn't escape from the Milky Way galaxy because it's moving at 10 times slower than the escape speed from the Milky Way.

So. So it keeps accumulating and we would find objects that collide with Earth or pass near Earth that are technological but are not functional anymore. But there is also a possibility for functional devices and that brings in the subject of unidentified aerial or anomalous phenomena near Earth that some military personnel argue they noticed.

Um, so in both cases, I think we should keep our eyes open and, and engage in studying those objects. to learn. I mean, it's just like space archaeology or even if the senders are dead by now, you could still find their packages near you.

Sidney: Wow. That's very, very interesting. So I do believe that there is extraterrestrial life.

There has to be. There's no way that there isn't in this entire giant galaxy, especially In the universe. Like, that's just a ridiculous statement that we are the only people, the only living, uh, smart things in this universe is an absolutely ridiculous concept, so I, so, but it, but it is an interesting difference in understanding when you say we're, you just have to be like an archaeologist for space, right?

Because things will impact space. That makes sense. And they could be very old! Like, that is, that is such a, uh, a different, um, way to understand it because also what you said is what I believe too is like, why would they care about us? Why would they come here?

Avi: Like what is here? No, no. We started by thinking that we are at the center of the universe.

Obviously it flattered our ego and it served the very well, the clergy, you know, back in the days of Galileo. because they could argue to people, God looks over your shoulder, you're at the center. But it happens to be wrong. What can we do? Now we take, we, we send those spacecraft that tell us that the earth moves around the sun.

There is no doubt that the Vatican was wrong. Uh, so the point is, um, You know, uh, we, the only thing we are, we are left to believe in is that we are the smartest and there is nobody else out there. So we are at the center of the intellectual universe, so to speak. Uh, and that is also ridiculous because, um, you, you see so many billions of planets like the earth and most of the stars from billions of years before the sun.

So someone preceded us. It's very likely. And it's presumptuous. It's arrogant of us to think otherwise. Uh, and you know, if we humans, uh, came to exist on earth only over the past, uh, few million years, and, uh, that's one part in 10, 000 of the age of the universe. So if you arrive to the cosmic play at the end of the play, and you are not at the center of the stage.

The play is not about you. And if you want to understand what the play is about, you better find other actors because they may have been around longer. And we lack that modesty. Yeah,

Sidney: well that's definitely true. Humans do lack a little bit of modesty, I will admit to that. Um, and I think that holding on to that belief, do you think it helps people understand the universe more if they think, well...

We are actually the smartest beings in the universe. So we shouldn't, we shouldn't worry about it. Right. So that's an interesting thing as well. Does it, does it help people be less afraid when they think like that?

Avi: No, no, in fact, if you look at religions, they argue that there is an entity out there that is superhuman, that is capable of things.

So that brings humility to people who believe in God, and it allows religious organizations to have better control at those people because they say, here are a set of rules that you're so... Supposed to obey based on what God gave you. And many people believe it and have religious awe at something bigger than them.

So modesty is helpful for religious organizations. But what I'm saying is that we may acquire the same sense of awe if we were to encounter technologies from another civilization that is far more advanced than we are. It will be just like a cave dweller going to New York City and witnessing the gadgets there and saying, wow, this is a miracle.

That cave dweller would be full of religious awe witnessing these miracles around. And, um, So, what I, what I usually say is that a much more advanced technological civilization is a good approximation for God, because it could do things that we cannot understand. It might even be able to create a baby universe in the laboratory, something assigned to God.

So the point of the matter is that, uh, finding them, I mean, the difference between religion and science is that in religion, you can believe in something, you don't need the evidence to believe it. You're right. You have faith. You just believe in it. Right. Exactly. It's a matter of faith. Whereas in science, it's all driven by data collected by instruments as, uh, you know, the foundation of evidence that everyone can accept.

So it's more objective because all scientists can look at the same evidence. Whereas in religion, it's subjective. It's a matter of belief. But what I'm saying is, if you, if we do find evidence for technological gadgets, let's say we Collect materials from a gadget or we see a gadget with buttons on it, and it says, it says made on exoplanet Y, you know, it's clear that this is real.

It's everyone can look at it and see it. Everyone can touch it. Everyone can press a button on it. Okay. So it's real yet. It can fill us with. Something similar to a religious awe when the gadget does things that we cannot imagine because it, it was manufactured by a civilization that had more than a hundred years of technology and science.

Uh, we had only one century of, since quantum mechanics was discovered, you know, the foundation of the computers, the artificial intelligence, the internet, everything is quantum mechanics. Uh, and that was discovered just a century ago. There are some people that are longer lived than that. You know, those people were born before quantum mechanics was recognized.

And what I'm saying is that we're relatively young as a technological civilization, and we could still be at all. And when we meet the products of a civilization that existed for thousands of years of technological advance, or maybe even millions of years or billions of years, for us, it would look like miracles.

And it would give us a glimpse at what our technological future might be. It may give us inspiration, but most importantly, it will bring us a sense of modesty. It's just like meeting a kid in your class that is far smarter than you are. You know, it changes your perspective. Yeah,

Sidney: well, and that's interesting that you mentioned the cave dwellers.

Um, I was flying, uh, from the East Coast yesterday, and I thought about that exact thing, right? I thought about that experience of flying in the air on a plane and thinking how incredible it would be for someone that was a cave dweller. And I think as something as simple as flying in the sky, something as simple as even taking a train across the country to us, obviously, is an awe inspiring experience for anyone that's never experienced it before.

So, anything,

Avi: like... But also, you have to recognize that birds were doing it for thousands, you know, maybe millions of years. And the point is that we were able to imitate birds when the Wright brothers first flew. You know, that it took us so long before we were able to do something that nature does. So easily.

And another example, just think about it when you get bruised or you, um, then, uh, your body heals after a while. And, uh, we don't have a car that after an accident would heal itself. We haven't developed that yet, but that's like a fundamental thing. The other thing that we don't have is nature, you know.

You have, uh, uh, animals, you know, just feeding on raw materials and reproducing. And, uh, we just don't have that technology. You know, we don't have 3D printers that are able to produce 3D printers using raw materials that they find in nature. It's just, it just doesn't exist. So these are elementary building blocks of biology.

We find it around us, birds, self replicating machines, biological machines, that we are not able to reproduce it. So our understanding of nature is very limited, and all I'm saying is we should be modest. We are not modest. We keep bragging about relatively superficial achievements, you know?

Sidney: Yeah, exactly.

Well, exactly. Because if you get... Something like a new social media site to get a billion downloads. Wow, congratulations. But you're saying that is obviously not as important as self replicating machines that have come from another civilization. I mean, that is, that is a very true point. Even from

Avi: our civilization, we haven't produced self replicating machines.

You know, it will take us a while before a robot would 3D print a robot out of rocks, out of materials that you find in nature, yet biology does it all the time. You know, everywhere. Right. And, uh, not only that, but biology allows animals to survive under changing circumstances. You know, if it rains, you know, we are just not at that level yet, uh, in what we produced.

Yeah.

Sidney: Some of the, some of the, you know, some, some of the species on this planet are absolutely fantastic to look at. That single, is it a single celled organism? That's very tiny. That is a water, it's called a water bear colloquially, but it's actually. Yeah, so that's the kind of thing. Yeah,

Avi: tardigrades.

They are able to survive in space, and then reproduce embryos. There was actually a worm, uh, there were worms that were found in the permafrost of Siberia. I just saw that recently, yeah. Recently, yeah. And they were rejuvenated after being frozen for 46, 000 years. And they lived, of course they died after the normal life.

But uh, it's amazing that they were frozen and survived for so long. And it gives me hope that maybe we can freeze life and put it on a spacecraft for a very long journey.

Sidney: Yes, well, I think that is already, it's interesting too, because it feels like technology wants to catch up with. Mostly science fiction, right?

And the game is always, how can we reproduce the thing that we imagined 40 years ago? Let's go all the way back to Jules Verne flying to the moon, right? And that was, okay, Jules Verne said that we could get to the moon if we shot a bullet really fast. I bet we, or a cannon. I bet we could do that. And then everyone tried to replicate it for the next.

80 years, and then they did it, right, for a hundred years, and then they did it, which was incredible, and then now, when I think about something like cryogenic freezing, I also think about, right, there was that, uh, there was a few movies that have done it correctly, there's some, there's some other popular media, you know, I come from a place where I love comic books, I love, uh, science fiction, sort of that world, so to have something like, oh yeah, by the way, a worm survived, It did it.

So that means we can too. Obviously, it's so much like also, you um,

Avi: uh, consider Jules Verne's, uh, uh, imagination, you know, that it was all about, um, launching things at a speed that is just one part in 10, 000 of the speed of light. So it takes about 50, 000 years at that speed of chemical rockets that we launched to reach the nearest. It's a long time, and it takes half a billion years to cross the Milky Way galaxy with such chemical rockets.

And it would be so much better if we could launch things at the fraction of the speed of light, which is a project that I initiated about eight years ago, seven years ago. Um, if you push a light sail with, basically a very thin membrane with a powerful laser, You can reach a fraction of the speed of light and then it would take a couple of decades to reach the nearest star system if it's a fifth of the speed of light.

So that, there is also a question of quality, not just the principle of launching things, but what speed are you launching them? By the way, just as an anecdote, if you were to board a ship, That would accelerate at one G, which is the acceleration on the surface of Earth. You wouldn't feel any difference relative to gravity on earth.

Okay? So it would feel completely natural. You would have the same conversation, feel comfortable, one G steadily for one year. If you were to do that for one year. you'll reach the speed of light. And if you were to, yeah. And if you were to continue to do that for, uh, for, uh, two decades, you would cross the entire universe for two decades, uh, because you would get very close to the speed of light.

So time would tick much more slowly in your frame. While the universe is aging by billions of years, you will traverse billions of light years, but for you, it will be just 20 years. Wow. Uh, so, so that is, uh, but of course there is no engine that can give you that, uh, boost of one G for so long. Uh, it's a huge amount of energy.

Sidney: Right. Okay. I was about

Avi: to say , just as a , just as a, as a thought experiment. Just you should realize that you can cross the universe in your lifetime, uh, in your lifespan, um, as long as you had this engine.

Sidney: Right. But, but, so I'm wondering though, and, and. Forgive me if this is an obvious answer and question, but if you do it in space and you can reach that, you get the propulsion at first and you know that there's nothing you're going to run into, you could theoretically get there, right?

Avi: No, no, but you need one G. All the time. So you need to be accelerating. Right. Okay. That's what I thought. I can give you one, uh, one hypothetical engine, but it doesn't exist. We don't know how to make it. Uh, Herman Bondi was a very famous, uh, physicist, uh, and then he imagined that in, you know, we are used to positive mass.

For example, the earth has a positive mass, uh, and it attracts us. But imagine flipping the sign of the mass of the earth, making it negative mass, so it would repel things from it. Um, so that means if you take an earth with a negative mass, place it next to the earth with a positive mass. Sure. The negative mass would push the positive mass away, but the positive mass would attract the negative mass with it.

What you will end up with is an engine because the two masses will move together. And accelerate steadily at 1G if they are close to each other. That is the kind of engine I was talking about. The only problem is there is no way that we can engineer a negative mass. I'm actually working on a scientific paper now to see if that's possible.

But if we had a negative, an object like the earth of negative mass, we could get Uh, a trip of the type that I mentioned to you before, because the negative mass would push the positive mass at 1G when it's next to it, and, and the positive mass would attract the next. So they would move together, accelerating as a pair at 1G steadily.

Sidney: Would you use the other planets as more masses as you accelerated? Is that kind of

Avi: the idea? Just have this pair of two objects, negative and positive, and they would

Sidney: Oh, they would move together? Oh, so

Avi: they would move together at 1G because the negative is pushing the positive at 1G and the negative so they move together.

Sidney: I thought, I thought Yeah, I thought that it was like you, you launch from a single point. So that's again, I'm only thinking of single point launch, which does not work. That's like, that's such an interesting thing. This

Avi: will continuously accelerate if you sit on that earth with a negative mass behind it, you will be propelled, uh, in on a journey of the type that I mentioned before.

The only issue is we don't know how to make a negative mass. He thought about it about 70 years ago. Um, I'm now trying to figure out if it's possible to engineer a negative mass of this type. I,

Sidney: um, and you mentioned that you were the first people to think about the, um, to try to engineer that light, that, that light speed, right, in the vacuum.

Right. I know about that project, and that's an amazing thing, and it did work, actually. You did get to the speed of light, I

Avi: thought. No, no. Uh, so the project was, um, initiated, inaugurated back in April, 2016. Uh, Stephen Hawking came for the inauguration in New York city. And, uh, it, it's called Starshot and we are still working on the technology.

We haven't demonstrated it yet. It includes several components. One is the laser. That has to be a hundred gigawatt, um, uh, focused on a sail that is roughly the size of a person and, um, pushing it for a few minutes. That's all you need if the sail is only one gram and it could carry, uh, electronics with it, that sail.

So we have various components, the design of the sail, the design of the laser, but also communication. Once this sail gets to a distance of four light years. Where the nearest star system is, the communication is not easy, um, because it's so far away and, uh, transmitting the signal that will be received on Earth is not trivial, so.

So we have these three components, but we haven't identified any showstoppers, but it's a very challenging technology.

Sidney: Well, it definitely sounds like, uh, it definitely sounds like something that would take a long time to figure out. I'm reminded of Star Trek when Captain Picard met the people that...

invented warp drive. And that reminds me of a scenario that you could be in, sir. You could meet, in a time travel scenario, you are meeting the people that have used warp drive for so long that now they are traveling back in time to thank you for it. Do you ever get worried about meeting your future self or was that?

Avi: Because according to the, to physics as we know it, uh, time travel right. It's not, it can't exist.

Sidney: No. And I, and I, and I do, I do believe that, I do believe that, that, that, that, like, according to like, you just can't, like, that's just not a thing. .

Avi: Well it leads to logical inconsistencies if you can, uh, for example, um, uh, um, kill your ancestors and that, so that will be a logical inconsistency.

I mean, there is even, um, a proposed theorem that it'll never be possible in physics. But, um, I, we don't know, we, we haven't yet figured the way of. Manufacturing a time machine, um, and as of now,

Sidney: we just Not just the time machine, I'm talking about the warp drive, right? So the warp drive in Star Trek is the thing that I think we're all hoping for.

We're all hoping for a warp drive system that is computer Processed so that we don't to me it was always how are we not running into things while going at light speed that that that's my biggest thing aside from time travel. Is that something you have to worry about too? You're like, oh, if we do this, we gotta figure out a way to also.

not run into it in the next planet, but I guess let's figure out the warp drive first.

Avi: Yeah, that's a serious issue because there is dust and micrometeorites and even gas particles in interstellar space everywhere. And when you run into them, just to give an example, if you run into them at the speed of chemical rockets, Uh, you know, each of them is like a detonation.

If a dust particle collides with you, it's as if it was made of TNT. Exactly. But if you are running at a tenth of the speed of light, it's like a nuclear explosion. So the same material, it's like if you have one gram. of material colliding with you. It's like one gram of a nuclear device. Okay. So that will be quite devastating to any spacecraft.

So definitely you have to worry about it. And when you move very close to the speed of light, it's even radiation that can damage you. But as I said, you know, we have a certain level of imagination right now based on what we know and what we witnessed. And it's quite possible that's very limited by one century of science and technology.

And already that is well beyond the imagination of, you know, what people could have thought about, like the ancient Greeks. You know, one thing that bothers me always is in philosophy departments in universities, you hear Uh, you know, most of the courses are about what philosophers of the past were saying, including the ancient Greeks.

That's a must. You have to take a course in ancient Greek philosophy. It makes little sense to me because they didn't have computers. They didn't have AI. So to me, a much more relevant aspect of philosophy is to figure out the ethics of AI. What is the correct thing to do now that we have these new sentient machines, almost sentient, not...

It's a very intelligent machines, um, uh, that we have to, that will get incorporated into society. How do we make sure that they, that they follow, um, the rules of ethics as we want them to, that they maintain the health of human interactions and of a societal structure, you know, and Uh, it's not at all obvious because right now there are no regulations, no principles guiding those who invent AI, like charge GPT and so forth.

And it's sort of like, um, the wild west out there and, uh, you, you can get hurt in the wild west if you, by

Sidney: chance. Yeah, we all remember what happened in the wild west because that was bad. And by

Avi: the way, it's also true that most of the companies developing it are in the west. Yes, absolutely. And they are wild.

Sidney: Yes, that is true. We do have a certain way of doing things out here. That is sort of like, well, guess what happens? And then everyone else has to deal with it.

Avi: But you see the difference from the atomic, and by the way, I highly recommend Oppenheimer, it's a fantastic movie. Uh, you know, what happened with the nuclear bomb was that it, it really required funding by government agencies.

The raw materials are not easy to come by, whereas AI are much easier. to handle, you know, you can have a kid in a basement doing it. So it's hard to monitor and the risk to society is greater because of that. Uh, and, uh, what I am surprised by is that philosophy departments in universities are not immediately jumping at the opportunity to help society.

figure out how to cope with this risk, both ethically, both in terms of the psychological impacts on humans and what should be guiding, what are the guiding principles. This is a matter of philosophy because it has to do with human machine interaction. So the human part is where the philosophers can contribute.

And since the ancient Greeks didn't have AI, They didn't say anything about it. So why teach them? Let's focus on how we cope with our future challenges. And unfortunately, that's not attended to. As I said, common sense is not common.

Sidney: Right, exactly. Well, that is really funny because I, I have, my wife and I have philosophical discussions about AI and the introduction of AI and how it affects currently and all these things.

But we also tend to argue a lot. Just because of these philosophical debates, right? They're very, like, by the, like, like, if AI is X, then that means Y can happen. So what are we doing in society now? But again, common sense is not common. So you're absolutely right. But that actually, before, before we get into a break, I do want to ask you this question, because you are such an important person in the interstellar community and the extraterrestrial community.

And why do you think people don't care? That the government has admitted to having aliens. Why is that, like, because I am a person that would love to admit that, Oh my gosh, hey, we found it. But I also was just like, sure, why not? Like, that's, because it didn't feel real. It didn't feel as... It didn't feel as impactful as I wanted it to feel, I guess.

Avi: Well, there are two aspects to it. One, we didn't see the evidence. It was Exactly. Thank you,

Sidney: doctor. Thank

Avi: you, doctor. I mean, David Rush talking about the fact that he heard the 40 eyewitnesses in programs of retrieval and reverse engineering of alien spacecraft. And, uh, the point is we want to speak with those people, not with David Grush, because he's a witness.

So the question is, is there something behind what he says? Is it a fabricated story? The good news is that he provided contact details for these individuals to Congress people so they can look further into it. So if we don't hear anything within a year, it means there is nothing behind it. Otherwise, uh, we might hear something.

You know, for me, the fundamental question is, should I wait for the government, for politicians in Washington, D. C. to tell me what lies in interstellar space? I say, no, you know, the sky is not classified, the oceans are not classified. So as a scientist, I went to the Pacific Ocean and used a magnetic sled to retrieve materials from the first interstellar object, two kilometers deep, and I will make the data public as soon as we finish analyzing it.

Um, and, uh, I don't care if the government will tell us or not tell us. Uh, if they tell us, that'd be great. I don't know if they have anything until I see it.

Sidney: Right. Well, that's actually something that I, um, hold on to with some other, um, scientists in the community where until I see it, I won't believe it, right?

That's, that's absolutely true because that's how science works. That's how fact works.

Avi: Well, it's not, it's not only that, but you realize that people can say anything they want. Yeah, exactly. Even if, uh, if the If a number of people attend the same car accident, you ask them, and each of them gives you a different testimony.

How can you trust people? I mean, it has to be based on, uh, instruments and already FIFA, you know, in the current world cup, a lot of decisions are made by camera, you know, based on camera data, not on what the, players say, not on what the audience says. It's not humans. It's basically looking very at the fine details of the images from the cameras to figure out what really happened.

That's the way science is done and for a good

Sidney: reason. Yeah, absolutely. Well, perfect. Well, let's, let's, uh, let's take a quick break and we'll Be right back with more from Dr. Avi Loeb. Hey, thank you so much for listening. I really, really hope you're enjoying this conversation about all things extraterrestrial, U f O, philosophical.

Why do we teach? Why, why are we, why are we teaching ancient philosophy? Why aren't we teaching modern philosophy? Good, great question. But philosophically, What do you think about this show? Let us know. Leave a comment. Rate it. Subscribe. And hey, listen. I want you to be honest with me. Just like Avi is being honest with me about extraterrestrial life, I want you to be honest with me about this podcast.

Please let us know. It really helps the show grow. Thank you so much for listening. And now! Back to Avi. Thank you so much for joining us. We are here with Dr. Avi Loeb. Thank you, doctor, for being here talking to us about the ethics of AI, and more importantly, why people don't care about the extraterrestrial, quote, evidence that wasn't there, everyone.

Let's all admit it. Um,

Avi: I just need to correct you on one thing. We said that you shouldn't call me doctor. Just call me

Sidney: Avi. Oh, I apologize Avi. I apologize. I, uh, my, my, uh, my sister is, has a PhD and every time I see her, I'm like, Oh, hello, doctor. And she goes, just stop. No

Avi: but the reason I say that is because there is this perception that science is the occupation of the elite.

And I'm trying to change that. And for example, when I went to the Pacific Ocean, I wrote 43. Diary Reports. And, uh, uh, people loved it. There were millions of people who read it and it was translated to Spanish. And afterwards, a lot of my colleagues in academia said, how dare you write about science as a process?

You know, we, it. could diminish the, the image of science because people see that we are making mistakes, that you are making mistakes. And I said, no, that's the way for people to connect because people love detective stories when the detective, you know, could make mistakes initially, but then the evidence guides the detective to the truth.

They would much rather see that than attend a press conference in which the scientists Pretend to be lecturers in the class and tell the audience that the public what the truth is, as if they never made a mistake. They never went in the wrong direction, right? Everything is straightforward. That is synthetic image, right?

Uh, and, uh, I think that it's serves, it doesn't serve well science in. The public appreciates to see how science is done. That's what people told me. And, you know, there was even a person that, uh, wrote to me an email while I was on the ship saying, you know, a few weeks ago I had a stroke and reading, uh, your diary gave me strength.

to live, uh, because it's so thrilling to see how the scientific process is done.

Sidney: Well, though, then you're absolutely well, thank you for opening up information. That's actually a huge part of that office. So I really appreciate that because I'm also a person that is trying to give Even the most simple access to information because for some reason Education and information are behind walled gardens as they say and I don't believe in that But let's let's get into a little bit more of a fun segment And I'm sure you've heard these questions before but the first question I have for you is What do you think aliens will look like or what do you wish they would look like?

So I have seen some prospects of what they could look like, but you as the true professional, what do you, what do you think they'll look like and what do you wish they look like?

Avi: So I don't allow myself to think what they should look like or could look like because of course, I think, uh, everything we imagine is based on our experience on earth and it would be AI.

With a very advanced sophistication, I mean, I imagine that we will encounter technological gadgets before we encounter any living creatures because the travel over a huge amount of space, you know, is hostile to biology, you know, you can't survive for so long under harsh conditions without nutrients.

But what I wish it to be is an inspiration to us. Um, something, uh, you know, in the spirit of God, the gods that we imagined, uh, so I'm not the first to imagine that religions imagine that something that is all powerful, uh, and has, uh, uh, wisdom to it. Uh, and, uh, the reason I want it to be that way is so that we can imitate it, that we will have a role model.

Let's put it that way. The current role models that we have are really not so great. I mean, they sing well, they might, uh, be good politicians, but they're not what humanity should aspire to.

Sidney: It's interesting that you say that too, because the religious aspect of it would be. Overwhelming, I think, for sure, and to, to not and you gave the exact answer that I think I should have expected you give, which is like, as, as the person in your seat, of course, you wouldn't think about what they look like, because that's not how it works.

You have to, you have to see it, you have to believe it, you have to, you have to understand it in order to, you know, The contact is not what an alien looks like or, um, what was that other, there was another one, uh, that was more recent in 2016, but that's not what an alien looks like because what does an alien look like?

Avi: Well, but just think about going out on a date. If you are open minded and accommodating to whatever your partner is, the date will go much better. Sure.

Sidney: Yeah. Oh, that's

Avi: true. Force an image. I mean, if you come to the date with a forced image of what you want your date to be and how. The date should, you know, be like, uh, then it's often not

Sidney: successful.

And when they do show up, you think, well, that's not what I wanted. And maybe that's why the government, maybe that's why the congressional hearings weren't great because all of us were like, well, that's not. That's not Independence Day. We didn't want, we wanted more than that. We wanted something that was more in line with our, with the ship coming down and, um, saying hello, which I guess that actually does give it to my next interesting

Avi: question.

Well, keep in mind that, uh, while you are paying to see a movie or read a science fiction book, uh, nature gives you anything for free. So don't complain about it.

Sidney: Wow, that's something that I think should be on a plaque somewhere. It's like just while you pay to see a movie, nature gives it to you for free.

Oh, my gosh. Um, well, if so, my next question, if you did, I guess, I don't know if I would even want to ask this anymore, but I'm going to if you were to be brought onto a ship of some kind of some extraterrestrial. Uh, car, I guess, is what we can call it. What would be your first question to them? Would it be, uh, what took you so long?

Would it be, um, how was the trip? Uh, that sort of thing? Or would it be something much more philosophical? And, or would you think you could even communicate with them?

Avi: Oh, the biggest thing on my mind is what, what, uh, was there before the big bang? Oh yeah, sure. Because, um, if they know it, they probably know how to, I mean, they could also know how to create a baby universe.

And just think about it, creating a universe out of... Nothing is an amazing thing. You know, it's more than creating. As much as making a baby sounds like a miracle. Think about how many babies are born inside our universe. You know, so if you create a universe, it enables so much. And then scientists within that universe might create more babies.

So. Right. I mean, I just want to know what happened before the Big Bang, if they know it. I think it encapsulates so much knowledge because they would know how to unify quantum mechanics and gravity. They would have evidence about the early beginning of the universe that we don't have. They will potentially understand also what makes most of the matter in the universe.

It has a lot of ingredients to it. In terms of scientific knowledge, that's what the, that would be my first question. Otherwise, who else is in the neighborhood? Tell me more about, you know, like, who is, who is in our company? You know, what, what are the fascinating tourist sites that you went to? I would like to just know more about our neighborhood.

We, we never explored beyond the local planets, you know, and of the solar system. And, you know, that's why I find it a lot. Elon Musk says, Oh, I'm the Space guy and I haven't seen aliens, uh, yet, , uh, well first of all, you explored space in a region whose size is one quadrillion, one part in 10 to the 15th of the size of the universe.

That's the region that Elon Musk is familiar with, uh, around the orbit of the earth, uh, uh, next to the sun. All right? And, uh, the universe is so much bigger. It, the comparison of scales is like an ant surveying the head of a pin and making a statement about the most distant planet of the solar system.

That's the ratio of scale, the distance to the most, the farthest planet relative to the size of the head of a pin. And it's a very presumptuous And that's what I would say about Elon Musk. Uh, and, uh, I think that again is, uh, you know, we should have some modesty and open mindedness and we shouldn't just say, Oh, we surveyed this head of a pin and there is nothing here.

So therefore the most distant planet has nothing on it. Like how can you make that statement? And, uh, first you need to search and you need to invest. He doesn't invest in searching. He just invests in, uh, building satellites for communication and building, uh, other. So the point is, you know, you have to put your money where your mouth is, so to speak.

You have to, if you think that the question is interesting and important, you have to invest in it. And after you search, if you don't find anything, let's say for 70 years, uh, you just don't find anything. You put billions of dollars and you don't find the answer, then you would be exactly at the same point as the mainstream community of astronomers is right now in terms of the dark matter.

We invested billions of dollars for decades. We haven't found it. That's where we are. So just making a statement about, um, you know, neighbors without putting that money into it is

Sidney: You must be a fantastic neighbor then because you must knock on their doors and say, Hello, I'm Avi. Uh, how are you? Uh, what, what, how, would you like to have a nice, uh, you know, a cup of coffee so that we can get to know each other better so we don't assume things about each other?

Avi: Well, I jog every morning, so I see, I can see that my neighbors, uh, I jog at sunrise. Many of them are not out. I should tell you one thing that when I jog, very often I see signs. Uh, in the yards of my neighbors and these signs often make a statement, um, and that statement is, I call it virtue signaling because they know that the neighbors, the neighbors around them agree with that.

statement. And they put the sign just to show, yes, I'm thinking just like you. However, that's not the right thing to do. If you really want to promote the cause that your sign is talking about, you would put the sign in a neighborhood that doesn't believe in it. Only then you can change the minds of other people and make a difference to the world.

What you are doing is serving your own self interest by... telling your neighbors that you agree with what they are saying, but you are not actually promoting the cause. Right. So that is a metaphor for life. A lot of people subscribe to clubs that agree with them. And by that, they're not changing the world.

They're just feeling better. Uh, and it's more, it's more, it's more like, um, you know, feeling good about yourself, but it's not. Changing the world to the better. And the way to change the world is to engage with opinions that are different than you have. Uh, you know, I was with a psychologist, uh, just a couple of days ago, a very famous, uh, accomplished, uh, psychologist from Harvard University.

Mm-hmm. Her name is Mazare Ji. And, uh, she is of Indian descent, but we went to a steakhouse for the dinner, and we said to each other that we enjoy eating sacred

Sidney: cows. Right. Yeah, of course. It's delicious. I gotta admit, it's amazing. That is actually a very interesting point. I do try to get outside of my own echo chamber, for sure.

I think especially after the 2016 election, it was, it was proven that you need to, right? Um, so I'm always sort of reading the opposite end of the spectrum. Um, but, uh, now that's interesting that you talked about food, because is there a food that you would want to share with aliens? Or would you just not assume that they eat?

Avi: Well, I don't know. I mean, I can offer them, but my favorite food is chocolate.

Sidney: Oh, perfect. That's a perfect, I think that that would be a perfect way to introduce, um, aliens to us. Do you, do you call them, do you prefer calling them aliens or do you say extra interstellar life forms?

Avi: I don't think it matters what we call them, the thing is, the important thing is not to introduce the term legal or illegal to being an alien.

They will be offended if we call them illegal aliens.

Sidney: Sure, because really we're the illegal aliens to them.

Avi: Because the term legal or illegal has to do with nations, the way we split the land on earth and it makes little sense for someone coming from so far away. We should be kind. We should be, uh, hospitable, um, because we may learn something new from them.

You know, uh, one day, uh, I saw a person on the street looking at, uh, my home. And, uh, my wife said, go check who that is, because we are, I'm worried that it may be one of your fans who is trying to do something. Uh, and I said, okay, well, I went there and I said, I said, who are you? And he said, I used to be a kid in this house 50 years ago.

And, uh, I said, oh, please come over and tell me more. And then he said, you know, that place in the backyard, we had a cat that was buried 50 years ago. Uh, and his name was Tiger. And I said, yeah, I know this name because I saw a tombstone with the name Tiger on it in the backyard. Now I was. I was hoping it's not a real tiger buried there, or it's not a person buried there, and now he explained it to me.

My point is people who had history with a place that you inhabit could teach you. And those extraterrestrials may have had a longer history with our environment, with our neighborhood, so they can teach us. Yeah, I think just like the story with this, uh, with Tiger, you know? Yeah,

Sidney: exactly. I, I think, and I think that's one of my favorite things when I think about extra terrestrials or, or aliens or anything like that.

It's just there, there's so much more that I hope to learn from them than to just like, make media from them, I guess, right? Like there's so much more, um, information that they have that it could be like, wow, I kind of like what you said, right? Like, how'd you do that? Like, how did you, how did you

Avi: make it?

You know, uh, on the ship in the Pacific Ocean, I continue to jog every morning at sunrise and we had a filming crew. There were 50 filming crews that wanted to join me. I selected one. Uh, and, um, the director of that filming crew said, um, Avi, it looks like you're running. Are you running away from something or towards something?

Yeah. And I said both. I'm running away from some of my colleagues who have a strong opinion without seeking evidence and I'm running towards a higher intelligence in interstellar

Sidney: space. That's incredible. Well, Avi, thank you for joining us. Truly, this has been a very inspirational and amazing, amazing conversation.

Um, I know you have Interstellar, The Search for Extraterrestrial Life and Our Future in the Stars. Avi Loeb, uh, any other things that you would like to tell the audience? Uh, let the people know. Besides the book, obviously, that, you know, is amazing, what would you like to tell the people?

Avi: Well, I think the most important lesson in my 61 years of life is to stay a kid.

Never surrender to pressure from the so called adults in the room who tell you that they know. Don't accept what they say. Maintain your childhood curiosity. And then, you know, it pays in the long term because you will discover things they don't know about.

Sidney: Absolutely. I completely agree with you. That is my entire social media presence, Avi.

I am constantly acting. I am constantly searching for that childhood awe that we are all looking for in adulthood. And I do not let the adults in the room take over. So thank you so much, Avi, for joining us. We will definitely talk soon. If I'm ever at Harvard, I will knock on your door and say, Hi, nice to meet you, Avi.

I

Avi: will be delighted.

Sidney: Thank you so much. Bye bye.

Wow, everyone. Wow. Just. Plain. Wow. What. A. Episode. Of a podcast. That's a real th That was a real conversation that I just had. With Avi. I am... I'm so happy that we agree philosophically and extraterrestrially about so many things. I may have, I may have met a good friend of mine today without knowing it.

Thank you so much for listening. If you have a question or you know somebody who would be amazing to be on the show, please let us know. Shoot us an email, eli30 at human content. com. And if you just want to chat, I'm Sydney Raz all across the internet. Or if you want to hang out with all of the human content pod people, they are.

Amazing podcast people. They're amazing people in general. Hang out with us over on socials. on Instagram and TikTok at human content pods. We'd really appreciate it if you left a review. Please, please, please leave a review. Let us know what you think. And listen, if you leave a comment and you subscribe, maybe I'll say hey to you in this very podcast.

It's true. If you like hearing my voice, but you earn to see my beautiful face, we release these episodes of the podcast every single Thursday on my YouTube channel at Sydney Raz. Every single Thursday on YouTube at Sydney Raz. Thank you again so much for listening. I am your host Sydney Raskind. A very, very, very special thank you to Avi Loeb, Professor Avi Loeb, for joining us on the podcast.

Our executive producers are Sydney Raskind, Aron Reuben Korney, Rob Goldman, and Shahnti Brooke. Our editor is Andrew Sims. Our engineer is Jason Portizzo. Our music is by Omer Ben Zvi, and our theme song is by Dr. Music. Explain Like I'm 30 is a human content production. And remember, hydration equals happiness.

Avi: Explain like I'm 30.