Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

<silence>

Moby (00:00:06):

Hi, Lindsay.

Lindsay (00:00:07):

Hi, Moby.

Moby (00:00:08):

So, today we are going to talk to one of my climate heroes, Peter Kalmus. And I love all of our guests, and I think all of our guests have amazing perspectives and stories. But I'm really excited to talk to Peter because in a very real way, the climate emergency is the biggest issue that has ever faced our species. And it's just baffling to me that more people aren't doing everything in their power to address the climate emergency. So that's why I'm thrilled to talk to Peter because Peter, like I have a lot of friends or people I follow on social media who are climate activists, and a lot of them are kind of gentle. Like they're very, they're sort of apologetic and diplomatic. And what I love about Peter is he's not diplomatic and he's not a gentle climate activist. Like he's a doctor, you know, he's got PhD works for nasa, but is out there getting arrested, being a climate activist. And he also unapologetically talks about the role of meat and dairy production in climate change and the fact that meat and dairy production is either the second or third leading cause of climate change, depending on how you look at it.

Lindsay (00:01:20):

Yeah. I love how when we talk to Peter, as you'll hear in the conversation, he's so passionate and you really feel how dire the situation is. But there's a lot of information that he has to share that's valuable for everyone. I mean, he's a data scientist, worked with NASA's jet Propulsion laboratory. Um, he also wrote a book about things you can do called being the Change Live Well and Spark Climate Revolution, where you can learn about a lot of the stuff for yourself. He's also, he founded a smartphone app called Earth Hero that helps people learn how to like, reduce their emission, reduce their carbon footprint, and be a climate activist yourself. Also, something I love about Peter Kalmus is that he has been arrested a few times for doing really badass stuff, such as chaining himself to the main doors of the Charlotte Douglass International Airport to protest, uh, emissions from flying. He was one of the first voices in the fly less movement, but also got arrested for chaining himself to the door of the JP Morgan Chase building in la protesting the bank's investments in new fossil fuel projects. So Peter Kalmus is a badass and really, really tough and fun and smart, and I really, really hope that you enjoy our conversation with him and feel inspired to make changes in your life afterward. 'cause I did.

Moby (00:02:53):

So, Peter, thank you for joining us. This is really exciting, uh, because quite a while ago, someone sent me links to your work, and I mainly knew you as a, a climate activist. And I have to say, the unapologetic way that you approach climate activism was so inspiring. So Lindsay and I are both really thrilled that you're here.

Peter Kalmus (00:03:16):

Oh, thanks. Well, thanks for having me. Yeah, I, I don't know how everyone stays so calm about what's happening to the planet, but I'm trying to push everyone to a somewhat higher level of urgency, I guess.

Moby (00:03:28):

Well, 'cause there's so much climate related stuff we want to get to. And we also, Lindsay and I are gonna throw ourselves under the bus for a second and admit that, uh, we don't know what gravitational waves are. So perhaps you can give us the dummies version of what a gravitational wave is, because Lindsay and I are both kind of dummies when it comes to the world of astrophysics, <laugh>.

Peter Kalmus (00:03:49):

Yeah. Well, so I, I started out in physics. I got a PhD in Columbia, um, in 2008, and then my PhD was on gravitational waves. And then I had a postdoc at Caltech for another four years, and then I switched into climate science in in 2012. So, yeah, my first love was, uh, cosmology and gravitational waves and astrophysics and gravitational waves are, uh, literally ripples through space time that propagate at the speed of light. It's pretty amazing what they are, and that, that we've actually discovered them. So I, I was so worried about climate change that I, um, left gravitational away of astrophysics a couple of years before the big discovery. And so, you know, I, I feel really proud that I contributed to that in my own small way, working on the detectors, helping to calibrate the detectors, doing some searches for gravitational ways for the, uh, from the strongest magnets known in the universe called Magnetar, which are these magnetic neutron stars. But ultimately, I'm like, man, I can't keep doing astrophysics when it feels like our planet is going on life support and burning up on our watch. So I'm like, I gotta use my talents and my energies to do whatever I can to stop earth breakdown. So that's why I left astrophysics, and

Moby (00:05:04):

We want to get to that eventually. Um, and especially putting things in a sort of broader cosmological context. But first, like, when we interview people, I really like to get to know them based on their history. And so I have a first question, which is, are you Canadian or is it just that smart people always sound Canadian <laugh>?

Peter Kalmus (00:05:26):

I'm, I'm definitely not Canadian. I grew up outside of Chicago and, um, my wife says I have kind of a weird way of talking. Like I say toilet instead of toilet. I don't know why I have, I talk like that. It's just, I've always done so,

Moby (00:05:39):

So, okay. So let's, I I, I like to really find out the minutiae. So you were born near or in Chicago?

Peter Kalmus (00:05:47):

Yeah, Hinsdale, southwest suburbs.

Moby (00:05:50):

And growing up, were you similar to me, like just like a baked in nerd from the get go? Or did you ever have a period of actually like understanding sports and being popular?

Peter Kalmus (00:06:01):

No, I was a complete nerd, um, in junior high school. You know, when I started getting interested in girls, I like had a skateboard. Um, I was sort of a poser, I guess you could say. Um, and yeah, I was desperate to find some way to be cool, but really I was just, I was really good at music, really good at math and science and, um, I was a boy scout too, so I guess I was good at tying knots and camping and stuff.

Moby (00:06:24):

Were you inclined towards the world of science fiction? And if so, what? Oh,

Peter Kalmus (00:06:29):

Yeah, I, I definitely was. I read all the Foundation books. I loved, um, Arthur C. Clark, I read some crazy Heinlein stuff, loved Ray Bradbury, which, um, you know, Ray Bradbury, there are all these rockets going off all the time from like, some center, and I'm pretty sure that was J P L, which is the Jet Propulsion Laboratory or like, you know, a fictionalized version of it, which is where I, uh, uh, work right now. And of course, I'm speaking on my own behalf. So yeah, I was a complete space nerd. I remember when I was in elementary school, I even read these books, uh, called like Space Cat, where like, it was this cat that would go in a rocket and he'd go out to all these crazy planets, you know. But yeah, uh, I was, um, I loved the planets, I loved the early Mars missions.

Peter Kalmus (00:07:12):

I loved thinking about things going on in the universe, across the universe. Um, all the crazy stuff that's happening up there. And yeah, I'm, I'm actually really furious that our world leaders are <laugh> doing so little to stop, uh, global heating that I felt literally compelled to stop doing all of that and, uh, switch into earth science. So, and, and I'm sort of grateful too, because it's pretty amazing to study the earth, but yeah, like I, I don't feel like it was really, uh, kind of a free choice on my part. And, um, I feel really bad for young people right now too. I just, I don't understand what it's gonna take. How many heat waves, how, how many crazy fires up in Canada it's going to take for world leaders. I mean, Joe Biden hasn't even declared a climate emergency yet. Like, what is up with that? What's it gonna take?

Lindsay (00:08:01):

Um, you have two kids, right?

Peter Kalmus (00:08:04):

I do. Yeah. They're both in high school now, and they, they don't really like space, uh, much to my chagrin. <laugh> <laugh>.

Lindsay (00:08:11):

How, how is it having two kids and doing the work that you do, do you find it to be stressful? Are you trying to instill the same kind of urgency in them? Or how does having kids affect your outlook on the kind of dire state that we find ourselves in? Yeah,

Peter Kalmus (00:08:27):

Good question. Well, it definitely motivates me and inspires me to try to work as hard as I can. Um, sometimes I feel guilty mm-hmm. <affirmative> for not working harder than I do to, to, you know, make social change basically, and publish good climate science. But, but I don't put this on them, you know, I, it's hard enough for me, like I barely have the emotional equipment and spiritual equipment to handle this, and I'm not gonna like, hit them over the head with it. But they're starting to ask me more questions. They ask me about capitalism. They asked me about like, where this is all heading, like how we actually, um, like do we need like an actual revolution? You know, what's it gonna take for the people in power to actually change things? So, so I, I find those discussions really interesting to have with them.

Peter Kalmus (00:09:09):

But yeah, I don't, you know, I, I hate being the Cassandra, you know, and they don't, they don't look at my Twitter. Um, 'cause they're, you know, Twitter is basically for old people. Um, <laugh> I think sometimes their friends, like if I post a video on TikTok, sometimes their friends will tell them about it, but I don't think they watch that either. Um, but I hate being the Cassandra. Like, I hate having to sort of tell these hard truths that, that I think are terrifying. I think what's happening on the planet right now is genuinely terrifying. And if you're not terrified by it, you probably don't understand it. You know, the society is so kind of in denial about this, that there's so many signals coming from all around, including world leaders, corporate leaders that, you know, we can just continue with businesses as usual.

Peter Kalmus (00:09:52):

And then there's a few voices like mine that are just saying, no, like, this is a emergency and we have to like all, you know, all hands on deck. We've gotta deal with this. We have to switch into emergency mode if we don't, literally billions of lives could be at risk. And then I'm, I'm like, I feel like such an for saying that. I'm like constantly saying like, God, you're such an for, for having to sound this alarm. But, um, so it takes a big sort of psychic toll on me to do that. But, um, I really do outta love and I do outta love for my kids, but also for, for everyone and even non-humans, you know, um, uh, one of my projects is looking at the future of coral reefs. And, um, I remember when I was writing the proposal for that, I was listening to, uh, David Bowie's Black Star album just on repeat and crying, thinking about what was happening to the coral reefs. So somehow, you know, I, I wish more people could empathize with, with non-humans and even like the most alien non-human like coral reefs. 'cause 'cause I certainly do. And you know, I, I'm not, I can't stand idly by while this stuff is happening on my watch on planet earth. The coral reefs don't get to come on your podcast and give their perspective. So I feel pretty deep responsibility to do that on their behalf.

Moby (00:11:06):

So, so you've addressed one of the most salient, disturbing aspects of the climate crisis, but it's that question of how do we get people to care? Because at present, for the most part, it's information. And it reminds me a little bit, maybe this is a weird analogy, but it reminds me of before I got sober, like for the five years before I got sober, my alcoholism seemed like simply it was an idea. It was an option as opposed to when I truly bottomed out, I was confronted with the catastrophic actual consequences of my addiction, and that led me to get sober. And so, it's a weird analogy, but I sort of think of humanity as being like someone who is like an alcoholic who's still able to drink without too many terrible consequences. Like, the hangovers aren't great mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but they're still functioning because for most people, like, they get in their car, they watch tv, they go to the supermarket, like everything, you know, sure. It might be hot, maybe there's fires. But it's that question of like, how do you get people to care and make these radical, phenomenally necessary changes when for the most part it's still in the realm of data.

Peter Kalmus (00:12:21):

Yeah. I think that's probably the most important question, uh, humanity's facing right now, actually. And, um, I don't have a slam dunk answer. I, I think it's going to take, I don't know, messaging on multiple channels coming from all different directions. I've tried personally lots and lots of things, you know, I'm just one person, but I'm doing sort of everything I can to <laugh> to try to break through that collective silencing that collective denial that you were just talking about. Um, and the thing that's worked best in my experience so far has been good old nonviolent civil disobedience. Um, so I've been arrested twice for climate disobedience. Um, and, uh, I've done other actions too, which, which I didn't get arrested for. But somehow when you take those risks, it's a form of communication. I think it's like a communications technology, and you are taking these data, these, these scientific facts and you're translating them into emotion and into sort of courage and then people, that, that's what allows people to notice them, right?

Peter Kalmus (00:13:22):

It kind of, it kind of bypasses the intellect and goes straight to the heart and straight to the spirit. And then people are like, oh, oh, wow. If they're, if, if these scientists are taking risks and, uh, doing arrestable actions and even getting arrested, then they, they really care about this. Like this really, maybe it is an emergency. If the scientists are acting kind of like, oh, meh, and we're showing charts and being boring and, uh, don't seem like we're really angry or sad or in grief or frustrated, then they're going to take, I, I think those emotional cues are much stronger than the intellectual data. Speaking

Lindsay (00:13:59):

Of data, I feel like, let's take it back a step. Basically what I am interested in is where are we and how did we get here? What is happening? What is the thing that is scaring you so much, and how did it occur? And I think we all have an idea of how it's happened on a basic level mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but I, I'm very interested in hearing it from you who's been on the ground and who knows it in such a deep way of where we are and how we got here. Yeah,

Peter Kalmus (00:14:23):

Good question, Lindsay. Um, so, uh, you know, I could probably ha have like a multiple hour answer to that question, but I'll try to keep it as brief as I can. <laugh>

Lindsay (00:14:32):

I'm sure. So,

Peter Kalmus (00:14:33):

So yeah, I, my own awareness rose in 2006, which was when of my first son was born. And that was a big part of it. So I kind of mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it lurched me out of my own selfish, you know, you know, wanting things for myself, wanting career stuff, wanting accolades, you know, wanting pleasurable things. And made me kind of realize that, hey, like this is a lot bigger than me. There are these other beings that are gonna be around here after me. It was also the year that an inconvenient truth came out. I'm, I'm a little embarrassed to say that mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but maybe I shouldn't be. 'cause I mean, everyone makes fun of Al Gore, but he was really ahead of his time and in a lot of ways, and, and that the movie, like, didn't have any good solutions. I thought, you know, the end when he basically says, change your light bulbs.

Peter Kalmus (00:15:15):

I was like, dude, you just scared the out of me for like 90 minutes or whatever, <laugh>. And now you're, you're saying like, the answer is to change our light bulbs. So, which, which I think just goes to show what sort of a hard problem it is. But we, we have a lot more, a much better sense of the solution set now. But, but anyway, um, yeah, that launched me on my journey. And, uh, there was just in 2006, I was halfway through my PhD in physics. I tried to get Columbia University to switch to wind power. Nobody cared. Um, I, I talked to professors, I talked to undergrads, I talked to administrators. There was one undergrad who joined my little crusade. All of the undergraduate green groups at that time, they couldn't have cared less about climate change. They were more worried about plastic bags in the dining hall and, and they had their own projects.

Peter Kalmus (00:15:59):

So I couldn't muster even the undergraduate green groups in 2006 to prioritize climate change and mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, I've had a long journey. I don't, I don't think, Lindsay, you're really not asking about my personal journey so much. But, um, we can talk about that, but I'm very interested in that as well. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, we can talk, get to that a little bit later, but for now, I'll just say that, you know, in 2006, things were really frightening to me. Uh, I saw the path that we were on, and I thought that humanity would do the right thing. And I never imagined for a moment that we would be approaching 1.5 degrees Celsius of heating, uh, in 2023. You know, we're maybe 1.3 degrees right now. Things are getting crazy on planet Earth right now. Um, things are crazier, I think, than I thought they would be by now.

Peter Kalmus (00:16:42):

And even worse, people are doing a lot less than I thought they would at this point in the emergency. I thought when we had this level of heat, this level of sea level rise, this level of storms, this level of wildfire, that everyone would be like, oh. Like, we really gotta do something about this. But that does not seem to be the case. Uh, you know, we've got world leaders around the world, including the Biden administration to say nothing of the Republicans. I mean, Trump obviously said it was a hoax and got his followers to believe that it was a hoax, which is, uh, you know, arguably in retrospect will be seen as the most dangerous, the most damaging thing he did, you know, which is saying a lot because he did so many dangerous and, uh, damaging things.

Moby (00:17:24):

Okay, I'm gonna offer this as just a point of discussion, and I hope that both of you don't get furious with me for raising this just as a possible strategy. I'm gonna go back to my weird sobriety analogy, metaphor. And when I was thinking of getting sober, I went to see a psychiatrist and his advice to me was to do more cocaine. And I looked at him, I was like, what do I like, are, are, are you guilty of malpractice? Like, I'm here talking about addiction and your suggestion is that I do more cocaine. And he was this jolly old man, and he laughed and he said, yeah, if you do more cocaine, trust me, you'll get sober a lot faster. The point being like, if you keep drinking, you still got another good 10 years. If you start doing a lot more cocaine, you'll be sober in six months. 'cause it'll burn you out so fast, <laugh>. So one possible approach, make it worse, because the only thing that's really gonna wake up humanity to deal with it is actually making the problem worse. Like people in Texas and Florida and all over the world who can still pretend it's, it's a hoax or it's information much less so when where they live is categorically uninhabitable. So I'm just throwing that out there as a point of discussion. Like, so Moby the strategy of make things worse.

Peter Kalmus (00:18:36):

Moby, I would counter and say that there's no way the Biden administration could actually make things worse, faster than they're doing now. <laugh>, they're literally, uh, expanding drilling at unprecedented rates on federal lands, despite campaign promises. Uh, to the contrary, they're opening new pipelines, uh, liquid natural gas in the Arctic. They're opening new pipelines in West Virginia, the Mountain Valley pipeline, which, you know, Schumer and Manchin both got hundreds of thousands of dollars in essentially bribes to do. Um, so it's just like, I think they're going, they've been begging OPEC to increase production. I mean, um, I don't know how the world could be really going faster. The Inflation reduction Act, if you look at it, you know, the, the amount of of money earmarks for climate action over the next 10 years, it comes out to, uh, on an annual basis, roughly 6% of what the US spends on the military.

Peter Kalmus (00:19:27):

Which is weirdly kind of, uh, for me, a little bit hopeful because if we imagine if we spent 50% of what we spend on the military to have a livable planet, we would actually solve this problem so fast, uh, to, to say nothing of. If we spent the same amount or more, uh, than we spent on, on the military to have a livable planet for all of us and for future generations, we would solve this so fast. We just haven't gotten there yet. We haven't made it a priority. Um, the public hasn't made it a priority. The media hasn't made it a priority yet. Um, the media, uh, basically reports in a very disjointed way about climate change. They don't connect the dots. They don't say like, what's going to happen in the future? They'll, they'll report on, you know, a heat wave, but they won't say, oh, if we stay on this track of burning fossil fuels five years from now, it's going to be like this. 10 years from now, it's going to be like this. This is the coolest summer, literally for the rest of your lives. Right? Yeah.

Moby (00:20:20):

You tweeted something about that and the context it provided. I don't know if you were, if this was your tweet or you were retweeting someone else, but you said, don't think of this as the hottest summer in human history. Think of this as the coolest summer for the next 10,000 years. Well,

Peter Kalmus (00:20:35):

Maybe not 10,000 years, but definitely for the rest of our lives. And it depends on how much fossil fuels we burn, how long that heat is going to last, how long that tail is going to be, right. So there's a lot of different impacts from burning these fossil fuels. And I should say, by the way, Moby, especially since I'm talking to you, uh, maybe 75 or 80% of global heating is from burning fossil fuels. Most of the rest of it, maybe roughly 15% very hand wavy, uh, maybe plus or minus 5% is coming from the industrial animal agriculture industry. So that's a big part of it too. Those are the two industries we've really gotta target fossil fuels and animal agriculture if we want to have a planet that's not hellishly hot, too hot for us to inhabit most of. Yeah.

Moby (00:21:18):

Yeah. And I actually, you mentioned Al Gore and I do give him a lot of credit for being very consistent and like, really like being one of the early proponents of this and drawing people's attention to it. And also, I've hung out with him a lot of times as I assume you guys have as well, or am I just name dropping?

Peter Kalmus (00:21:36):

I've never met him, actually. Okay.

Moby (00:21:38):

The first time I met him, I asked him, I said, why in an inconvenient truth, both the book and the movie, did you not mention meat and dairy production? 'cause as you just mentioned, it's probably the third leading cause of the climate emergency. I, I

Peter Kalmus (00:21:53):

Would say second. Yeah.

Moby (00:21:54):

And I thought he was gonna give me this like mealy-mouthed politician answer. 'cause as we know, like politicians love giving mealy-mouth non-answers. And instead he was so specific and so direct, and he said, Moby, the reason I didn't mention meat and dairy production in an inconvenient truth is it's too inconvenient of a truth for most people. Yeah.

Peter Kalmus (00:22:15):

I, I, I know what he means, but I

Moby (00:22:17):

Loved how like he was so unco, like, he was so direct about it. And I was like, "wow, you're, I, I wish that wasn't the case, but thank you for being so, so direct and not trying to skirt the issue." Yeah.

Lindsay (00:22:27):

Um, I wonder when you try to talk to the average person, my, my dad who lives in Texas, who has Marjorie Taylor Greene in his ear saying, climate change isn't real. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and fossil fuels are good. Yes. There's alarm and there's people saying it's not real. So what I would love to know is how do you combat that on the most basic level of it is real, and this is why, what do you say to people in those moments?

Peter Kalmus (00:22:54):

Yeah, good question. So, um, you know, the short answer is I don't really spend my energy trying to convince the sort of what you could call the hard deniers or the conservative climate deniers who think that the science is wrong. Sure. And that it's just a hoax. There's another denial, which is, uh, potentially even more damaging, which is the neoliberal denial or the soft denial. So the people who say, yeah, okay, we accept the science, this is bad. But then when activists, uh, you know, throw soup at glass that's covering a painting, they clutch their pearls and they're like, holy crap, you can't damage art. And they get more off about that than they ever do about the fossil fuel industry. Yeah. They, they get more off about that than about how the fossil fuel industry has been literally lying and spreading disinformation and blocking action for decades.

Peter Kalmus (00:23:38):

And how we're losing coral reefs. We probably won't have coral reefs on planet earth after, or at least certainly not as we know them after mid-century, how we're losing the forest in the Sierra Nevada, how people are starting to leave the global south because it's getting too hot. How our food system is on heading towards basically, uh, multiple crop failures simultaneously, which could lead to massively increased levels of starvation, especially for the world's poor people. They don't get off about that stuff. They get off at climate activists who are desperately trying to wake people up. So that's neoliberal denial. And it's like what Martin Luther King said in his letter from Birmingham Jail. Right? It's actually the moderates, uh, the, the most confounding people are the, the ones who Luke warmly agree and who say, now's not the time. We'll handle that later.

Peter Kalmus (00:24:26):

There's higher priorities. And they tend to, you know, they sound like the serious people, right. And the, the real politics and the ones who get practical reality, but they keep kicking the can down the road and leading us deeper and deeper into irreversible planetary, uh, degradation and destruction of, uh, life support systems. When I say IRR irreversible, I mean, uh, practically irreversible on civilizational and human timescales, right? So, you know, that that whole art thing I thought was, uh, the art activism thing, the Van Gogh paintings. And, uh, more recently, you know, in the National Gallery, there are two activists who smeared paint on the glass base of a, a sculpture, right? So they, like, they're very careful not to actually damage the art. And yet you have all these democrats, these neoliberals that just, um, denounce 'em vociferously, uh, much louder than they denounce the fossil fuel industry.

Peter Kalmus (00:25:17):

And I, I think that's absolutely also denial. And so that's where I tend to focus my energy. I'm like, if you understand what's happening, if you get these facts, you have to become a climate activist yourself. Otherwise, you don't really get them. You're not letting them percolate into sort of your spiritual core, your emotional core. You're keeping them comfortably emotionally at arms distance, right? So that you don't have to give up any privilege, so you don't have to give up your frequent flyer miles and flying around the world all the time. And you're maybe in your private jets. Right. A lot of these people. Um, so that really bugs me.

Moby (00:25:53):

Okay. So, on one hand, when I was coming up with questions, I wanted to make sure that we talked about some optimistic things. Mm-hmm. And I guess we can get to that. But while we're, we're here in the justifiably doom and gloom aspect of the climate apocalypse, there's one aspect to it that I'd love to hear your take on, which is or are, and this is when I talk to a lot of environmentalists and climate activists, they're not aware of the feedback loops. Like they think that the climate is changing on a sort of logarithmic level. Like it's, you know, sort of like year by year getting hotter gradually. And when I start bringing up feedback loops, like the albedo effect or the melting of the permafrost, it sort of takes what we're dealing with, at least from my limited naive perspective and makes it so much worse. I I have yet to meet an environmentalist who knows what the albedo effect is.

Peter Kalmus (00:26:47):

Oh, that's depressing to hear that. Yeah. I

Moby (00:26:48):

Don't, is that the current, no, that's the Atlantic marital overturn current. Oh, that's amoc. And that's also terrifying. But the albedo effect from my, and Peter, please correct me if I'm completely wrong because I'm a college dropout and you have like 17 PhDs, but the albedo effect is when you go to the beach and you're walking on the white sand, it's relatively cool when you walk on the dark pavement, it's very hot. So as the ice caps melt as there's less white ice and snow, it reveals the dark ocean underneath making it even hotter faster, making basically like these, rather than ob reflecting all the heat into space, the earth is now absorbing that much more heat.

Peter Kalmus (00:27:26):

Yeah, that's right. Moby. And, and also changes in clouds can contribute to the albedo effect too. Right? So low marine clouds tend to reflect a lot of incoming solar radiation off the coast of California, for example, you've heard of June gloom, and if those low stratocumulus clouds, which they tend to respond to sea surface temperatures, so on a warmer planet there, uh, looks like there's probably gonna be less of them. And that also would be a, a another positive albedo effect. So yeah, you understand correctly. And the, the earth system is, it's a insanely complex system with so many interlocking parts. And our models tend to be, they, they tend to be, uh, uh, their models. So there's a simplified version of the earth system.

Moby (00:28:07):

I'm both terrified of the albedo effect and the climate apocalypse, but it's the first time that someone with multiple PhDs just one, and science and physics has said that I'm, that my analogy about the albedo effect was right. So I'm feeling both like terrified and a little smug.

Peter Kalmus (00:28:24):

We think we have a decent understanding of sort of like how the global average, uh, surface temperature is going to increase over coming decades. So we'll probably kind of get solidly past 1.5 degrees Celsius in the early 2030s. But we could be wrong. Like, we could be underestimating that those projected warmings. And I, I think our models haven't really, um, uh, resolved things like the heat domes, like the one in the Pacific Northwest. So there's, there's definitely things that we don't really understand about the atmospheric dynamics and how these different parts of the earth system are linked together. I'm afraid, uh, that, uh, so I'm not an expert in tropical forest, but I think a scientist who I respect a lot said recently to me at a conference that he feels he's a tropical forest expert. He feels that the, uh, Amazon has already passed its tipping pinpoint, uh, which just, uh, hit me like a bolt of lightning, um, because I've been realized that I've been hanging on to a shred of hope that maybe if we acted really fast and, and there's no evidence that we will act really fast. But I still hope that we will, uh, 'cause I think social systems are also super non-linear, and they could surprise us how, how quickly we actually respond. Like I said, if we actually tried, we could stop this really fast, but it looks like according to one of the scientists on this planet who I respect the most, uh, and who is an expert in the topic, which I'm not, uh, but I do believe experts typically that we've already probably lost the Amazon rainforest. And that is a, it just makes me feel so much grief.

Moby (00:29:50):

Is it worth mentioning that 90% of deforestation is a result of meat and dairy production?

Peter Kalmus (00:29:56):

Uh, it's definitely worth mentioning that. So that's part of the loss. But I think the, the thing that's going to finish it off is just global heating, uh, uh, which is drying things out and causing fires and causing it to start converting into Savannah. But yeah, it's a, it's a combination of the conversion and the fragmentation, uh, and the, the animal agriculture. So Al Gore's, right? It's very hard to sell, leaving animal agriculture. But if we were rational as a human species, uh, we would do that overnight. We would end animal agriculture for multiple reasons. But the main one is that we'd suddenly take a 15% chunk out of global heating, which would be huge, and we would stop, it'd be so much easier to feed everyone, uh, with plant-based, 'cause it's so inefficient to convert the plants into animals first, then eat those animals.

Peter Kalmus (00:30:47):

So it's just, uh, it's so insanely, I guess you could say, selfish of us as a species living in a planet in crisis, uh, as we are right now to not do that. But I know that the vast majority of people in the United States would strongly disagree with me on that. And it's, um, I think we have sort of a compassion and empathy, a selfishness crisis where, uh, so many of us just aren't able to think about others. We just tend to put our own desires first, even if it means other people are going to die. And, um, that's the part that I don't really know how we change fast. And I agree with what you said earlier, Moby. I think if something causes the social system to pass a tipping point where suddenly we start really dealing with this in a high priority way, we treat it like, uh, like a World War II Mobylization, what's probably going to do that is, is fear. You know, again, I, I sort of feel like an for saying this, but we, we have fear for a reason. It's supposed to protect us when we're in danger. And make no mistake, we are definitely in danger right now,

Lindsay (00:31:51):

Um, to keep going on that. You keep talking about shifting social structures and helping people to start to care and understand that their actions, what they consume, what they buy every day, have impacts, which people don't want to believe because it's very inconvenient. Like, how, how do you see that happening? Yeah,

Peter Kalmus (00:32:12):

Great question, Lindsay. So I think my, my tagline, I guess if I have a tagline, is that we need a billion climate activists. I just want climate activism to spread virally through the population. Um, so that the people, I, I think it's only gonna come from the grassroots, the rich elites who are in power right now have made it extremely clear that they're not going to voluntarily change. I talked to a couple fossil fuel executives, uh, a few years ago, and they just brazenly told me like, we'll go as fast as our customers want. Like, yeah. Like, you. You know, it's not, it's not on us. It's on like all of you guys who are using our products, even though their, their industry has, like, you can't, you can't repeat this too often. Everyone needs to know that the fossil fuel industry has been lying for decades systematically.

Peter Kalmus (00:32:58):

They've been colluding between the different corporations to create various nonprofits that spread misinformation and that lobby politicians to block action. Even Democrats like Chuck Schumer. So it's just this, this whole racket, right? Because for them, they, they're, they're looking at trillions of over a trillion dollars in profits every year, right? And then they, they can buy off Chuck Schumer for $287,000. It's insanely a good deal for them, right? And there were four fossil fuel CEOs who in 2021, uh, were questioned by Congress. I don't know if you guys remember that. It was the Chevron and the Exxon and the shell CEOs, and they were asked point blank by congressional representatives, will you stop spreading disinformation? Will you stop funding the American Petroleum Institute? Which, you know, spreads disinformation? And they would not agree to that. Uh, they brazenly said, no, we're gonna keep doing that.

Peter Kalmus (00:33:52):

We're gonna, they did a, a corporate speak, like legal speak, right? They basically filibuster the way out of the question, but it was clear what their intent was, which is to continue misinforming. So that's just to say that the only way we're gonna come out of this is through grassroots movement. I'm, I'm quite convinced of that. And the good news is it's getting, it's getting much, much stronger. Uh, like a couple years ago, um, some of the projects I'm doing would get lukewarm, like, eh, that's sort of interesting. And now people are eagerly saying yes to things and joining forces and networking. So, so there has been a, a real change over the last, uh, couple of years. It hasn't really translated into action yet, but I think it's, it's this potential that's building up. And I do think you, I wanna make it really clear to everyone that there's never going to be a point that we should stop fighting.

Peter Kalmus (00:34:42):

'cause it's just, we lose more and more every day that we continue burning fossil fuels. Um, but there's still a lot on this planet that we haven't lost yet. I mean, look at it compared to Mars, like what a crap place Mars is compared to Earth, even a injured earth, a degraded earth is still this miraculous oasis and the vast cold, uh, violent cosmos of space. And we, we clinging to this rock as if our lives depend on it, because they do. And we've lost our way as a species. We've stopped feeling gratitude for this planet, and we've stopped feeling the joy of being one species among many on this, uh, on this earth. And I think we have to find our way back to that. But I think we're only gonna do that after we get afraid enough of all that we're losing, that we actually stop fossil fuels, put these CEOs that have been lying in jail transition in a, in a very fast and, uh, uh, equitable way, that a way that protects the working class and, and the most vulnerable people, because we need that, right? We have, when we transition away from fossil fuels, we absolutely have to make, do it in a way that doesn't crush working class people. If they feel like they can't live, they're going to be against any, any such policies, right? They're gonna, we they have to be part of the transition and they have to support it.

Lindsay (00:36:01):

Um, you, you said, uh, people have to fight and people have to keep fighting and continue to fight, but what does that look like when you say that in this context? What is that fight? What, what does it entail in your eyes?

Peter Kalmus (00:36:12):

Uh, it's just everything that, uh, any particular person can think of doing. Uh, but especially joining up with other people, and especially taking risks. So I think, uh, effective activism in my experience, uh, is effective if you're taking some risks, because again, it's, it's all about basically breaking through this sort of manufactured silence, this, um, sense that, you know, it's a, it's a pretty enough day today, so I'm not gonna worry about climate change, or, you know, the scientists don't seem that worried. Uh, the, the world leaders don't seem that worried. So I've got a million other things to worry about today, so I'm not gonna worry about climate change. Uh, we have to break through that manufactured silence. And the way you do that is by, um, demonstrating that, you know, and communicating in an effective way that this is genuine, genuinely an emergency.

Peter Kalmus (00:37:01):

So once you understand that it's an emergency, you have to start changing your actions to, to act in accordance with that deep knowledge that you now have, that this is an emergency, and then that starts to spread from person to person. And that's what's happening right now, uh, through the movement. Like, we've got more climate activists doing civil disobedience than ever before in, in history. You know, we've always had frontline people, like for a long time, uh, indigenous people especially have been working as hard as they can to protect the earth, um, uh, because of the history that they've had, the, the brutal trauma that they've experienced for hundreds of years. And now more and more people are starting to finally join them. But we need more of that. And, uh, we need people to also be advocates in their places of work, for example, in their institutions.

Peter Kalmus (00:37:47):

Um, so many nonprofits, universities, professional societies, are basically holding things back by continuing to invest in fossil fuels by sort of waiting and seeing, uh, being followers instead of leaders. We need to push all of these institutions to be proactive. There's, there's just like this huge vacuum of leadership right now, uh, on climate change. Like, look at the, look at the so-called world leaders. Uh, there's, there's no one out there who's leading, uh, the way, maybe we had leaders in World War ii, for example. Um, they're all just, uh, they're trying to play it safe in the short term, which is incredibly dangerous for all of us in the long term.

Moby (00:38:26):

So to that end, when you look at the current state of climate activism, where do you find inspiration like you? Who are the, the leaders that you're actually inspired by? What are the organizations who you think are doing great work? Because I'd love to draw attention to like, the inspiring leaders, whether it's Greta or the in, or the organizations you believe in. Yeah.

Peter Kalmus (00:38:49):

Greta Greta's been arrested now, so, um, uh, which is fantastic. Yeah. Any, any activist who's, who's risking arrest, who's doing civil disobedience? Uh, those are my siblings. Um, those are the people on this planet. Uh, among the people on this planet who I love the most. Uh, they're incredibly dear to me. Um, uh, because they're so courageous. They're facing, uh, new laws that are being developed. And even in the Uni United Kingdom, even in some states here in the, in the United States that are, uh, punishing climate activists, basically criminalizing nonviolent protests. So yeah, just stop oil. In England, climate Defiance is a, as a brand new group here in the United States, uh, they've been tactically brilliant. Uh, they've been basically disrupting fundraisers and speeches from politicians like, like Chuck Schumer and others who are basically climate hypocrites and making them squirm. They shouldn't be a, you know, Biden shouldn't be allowed, for example, to self label himself a climate champion, which is exactly what he's doing repeatedly.

Peter Kalmus (00:39:50):

Now. Instead, the hypocrisy, uh, the expansion of fossil fuels should be called out, you know, as often as possible it should be. I hope it becomes a really big, uh, campaign issue for the 2024 election. Um, I'm not sure it will, but that's where we have to be. So civil disobedience, people taking risks, uh, people potentially losing their jobs even because they're doing the right thing and standing up to the grotesque hypocrisy of their institutions. I've got several friends who, who are in that category. And I am hoping that as the grassroots movement grows, and as climate catastrophes get more intense and more frequent, all of my brothers and sisters who are taking these risks and experiencing these costs in their lives, they will be seen as clearly being on the right side of history. And they will be seen as the heroes that they are and the heroines that they are. And, um, those of them who are in prison will be released <laugh>. 'cause things are getting, things are starting to get really quite real, you know? Um, but, but they're on the right side of history. The world leaders who are expanding fossil fuel fields and the corporate leaders who are lying and bribing, uh, for inaction, they are clearly on the wrong side of history. And, and I can't wait until the average person just fully realizes that.

Moby (00:41:13):

And so, I have a, a question, and maybe this is also a contentious thing in the world of climate activism. What are your thoughts on geo-engineering, like, uh, building giant solar shields?

Peter Kalmus (00:41:24):

Yeah, good question. So, extremely dangerous, um, heartbreaking that we're getting so close to that point. Um, the one geoengineering idea that I think is actually practically feasible is basically emitting sulfate pollution in the upper atmosphere by, by airplanes. Um, so these little particles, uh, of pollution can reflect sunlight, these little aerosol particles. Uh, and that would be relatively cheap, you know, in ministry for the future, a recent novel by Kim Stanley Robinson. There was a, just a mega heat wave in India. And by the way, um, I think it's, at this point, it's only a question of when there's going to be a heat wave that kills, uh, more than a million people. Not a question of if that happens, maybe that'll be a big wake up call. But anyway, a heat wave like that happens in India, and India unilaterally decides to do stratospheric aerosol geoengineering.

Peter Kalmus (00:42:20):

Um, so that one is relatively cheap, it's feasible, but basically it just masks the problem. It doesn't deal with the underlying cause, which again, you know, is fossil fuels and animal agriculture, right? Until you end those two things, uh, it will just keep getting worse and worse, and we will lock in more irreversible damage. But you can mask it by reflecting some of the incoming, uh, sunlight with these aerosol particles that you emit high up in the atmosphere. But if you ever stop doing that, you'll experience what's called termination shock. And then suddenly, in a matter of months, you'll get just a huge spike in temperature. All the, all that incoming sunlight that you've been blocking will pour into the earth, and you'll get a very quick spike in, in, uh, global temperatures, which would be catastrophic. So once you do that, it's kind of the devil's bargain.

Peter Kalmus (00:43:09):

You're gonna change precipitation patterns, so you'll have some countries be losers in that sense. You'll maybe increase drought, change the patterns of agriculture that have traditionally held, and then if you, if you ever stop, you're going to have this huge termination shock. And then the third problem with it is politicians will almost certainly, uh, use it as an ex a way to relieve pressure on them to actually do something meaningful, um, which is, uh, ending the fossil fuel industry on an emergency mode basis. That's what we need to do. Everything else is all this other stuff about soil, carbon and, uh, carbon capture. And, um, you know, this and like all these other solutions are just like beating around the bush compared to ending the fossil fuel industry. That's the only thing that matters. And look at what the fossil fuel industry's managed to do.

Peter Kalmus (00:43:57):

They've even taken over the cop process, right? So Cop 28, uh, later this year is going to be led by a fossil fuel executive. And it's ba basically been completely infiltrated by, uh, the fossil fuel industry. For the last two years, that's been the largest delegate at the United Nations meetings for ending climate change. So like the fox is really in the hen house, and, um, it's just so out in the open, but somehow the media doesn't report it with urgency, and then people don't really realize what's happening. And, um, this is the problem with this kind of corporate oligarchy that we have right now, uh, this neoliberal capitalism is that they've, it's maybe worse than the robber barons that we learned about in history class because they've learned how to control the politicians and the political system, and they've learned how to control the media. And so what do we, the people, um, what do, what does the grassroots movement really have left, like social media? I, I mean, Musk bought Twitter, so it's just, uh, if the media was reporting with urgency and, uh, clearly pointing out that fossil fuel executives are probably the biggest criminals, uh, in human history, that I think the climate movement would grow much, much more quickly. But they're not doing that.

Lindsay (00:45:11):

I feel like there's a thing that I notice, like I'll see, 'cause you're talking when you mention the media and reporting on it, but every time I see the media reporting, they treat climate change and doing things that are better for the planet, almost as some, something cute. Like cats wearing clothes, <laugh>, like, like they're like, and here's something nice you can do for the planet. You can compost. Look at this compost. Like, you know what I mean? Well,

Moby (00:45:35):

Kinda like the end of inconvenient truth, what Peter, what you were saying, it's like you present this catastrophic apocalyptic scenario and then you're like, swap out your light bulbs. It's like, oh yeah. Wow. If I, if I,

Peter Kalmus (00:45:47):

Yeah, a surprising thing about me, like people would probably not expect me to say this, but I don't give a if you recycle. It's not bad to recycle, but don't think of it as a climate solution. It's a, it's a corporate SOP to make you feel like you're doing something when you're really not. And so then the corporations can keep on taking their profit.

Moby (00:46:06):

It's one thing I wanted to bring up, which is what I call the, we are the world phenomena. If you remember when they had, we Are the World with Michael Jackson and team, uh, and they had these huge concerts also, like the, um, the, do they know it's Christmas, Bob Geldoff, and basically after We Are The World, and Do they know It's Christmas? Um, people thought that world hunger had been solved, and as a result, all the NGOs working on World Hunger, they had like one year where they received tons of donations and then nothing. Because your average person was like, well, I did my bit. I watched the show and I gave $10 to a 900 number. And I worry with climate activism, and I'm probably guilty of this as well, is like, you think to yourself like, oh, I drive an electric car and I keep the temperature at a reasonable level in the winter, in the summer, and I try to walk places so clearly I'm doing my part. Yeah. And the problem solved. There's that danger that like, the smallest effort is actually having huge consequences

Peter Kalmus (00:47:07):

When

Moby (00:47:08):

It doesn't seem like that's the case, right?

Lindsay (00:47:09):

It's like not using straws because of turtle

Peter Kalmus (00:47:11):

Noses, the straw thing kind of

Lindsay (00:47:12):

Nuts, but not, but then still eating fish. Yeah.

Peter Kalmus (00:47:14):

<laugh>. And it's not like those, those things aren't bad things to do, but again, it's just like, it's the corporations controlling the story and controlling the narrative. And what we need to do is end those corporations. We have to end the fossil fuel corporation, uh, corporations and them. Um, they, they could have been allies. They could have, they could have chosen, they could have chosen to tell the truth, and they could have chosen to say like, you know what? Our products are destroying the planet and we have to phase them out as quickly as possible, and we're gonna become energy corporations and not fossil fuel corporations. They did not do that. Everyone needs to know that everyone should be furious at these corporations and the executives and the lobbyists that are behind them because they made a conscious choice to take our planet into the, to the brink of catastrophe and beyond for the sake of their profits, even though they were already had more money than they knew what to do with the narcissism, the ego, the, just like the stupidity.

Peter Kalmus (00:48:08):

People need to understand how stupid these people are. People think that because they're rich, they must be smart. Nothing could be further from the truth. There's literally nothing dumber than destroying the, the planet, the spaceship that you live on that's keeping you alive. It's, it's ridiculously dumb, especially when you don't need to. Um, because there's so many, uh, we, we could organize society without fossil fuels, but these corporations aren't let, uh, they're making sure we don't do this because it's such a, a gravy train for them to keep doing this. It's as dumb as that. Like it's so dumb at the root of it. And somehow we have to rest the power away from them, because like I said earlier, they've made it very clear that, uh, that they're not going to voluntarily be part of the solution. Um, so yeah, that's, if you're concerned about this, yeah, don't, don't just, you know, drive an electric car and do all that good stuff, that's the least of it. You have to join up with others. You have to become an activist. You have to take risks. You have to stick your neck out, speak out, uh, do things that make you a little uncomfortable at work. Um, stand up to institutions and ultimately, uh, risk arrest. And then probably the movement's going to even go past that as people realize what a life or death thing this actually is.

Moby (00:49:23):

I mean, one thing it reminds me of is the industries that we're talking about. They're all incredibly old, crappy industries. And if we look at human history, there's this constant process of disruption, you know, where like the old industry that's like, that's messy, that's inefficient, gets ideally replaced by something better. And this reminds me a little bit, like, imagine it's like the early 20th century, and imagine like the people making wax cylinders for music are confronted with MP threes and they squash the MP three industry. So everyone keeps buying wax cylinders, or like horse-drawn carriage industry destroys the autoMobyle industry, which maybe they should have, but it's, I, I sometimes wish that the Democrats or the progressives would sort of recognize there's the carrot and the stick mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And the stick is very clear, is like the world is an inch away from complete catastrophe and collapse.

Moby (00:50:18):

In fact, we're experiencing right now. But the carrot would be let's create industries that are based on future technology, that are efficient, that, that won't destroy the planet, at least to the extent that these current industries are. 'cause think about it, like oil and coal and gas and meat and bacon. Like these are old garbage industries. And I feel like there could be a selling point, and maybe even, I hate to say it, like to incentivize people in the world of finance to say like, look, why are you still living in the past? Like in the future is clean energy. The future is clean protein. The future is not these old, terrible industries, just like the future is not cigarettes and compact discs. The future is not horse-drawn carriages.

Peter Kalmus (00:51:06):

So Moby, my first arrest, uh, April 6th of last year, of 2022, um, I was actually,

Moby (00:51:12):

Was it JP Morgan, right? Yeah.

Peter Kalmus (00:51:14):

I was protesting that, that money pipeline, the fact that, you know, JP Morgan Chase, they fund, they do more to fund and support the expansion of the fossil fuel industry than any other institution on the planet. And without that financial support, without that funding, fossil fuel industry wouldn't be able to build all their, their new pipelines and whatnot. Um, so, so yeah, it's in, it's incredibly important. Um, I think it's this horrible short term outlook because we live in this, um, profit obsessed capitalism. This, this like most reductive version of capitalism that you can possibly imagine, where literally nothing matters, uh, except the next profit, uh, the quarters, the, the, you know, the revenues for the next quarter, right? And shareholder profits. So in that system, it's like the earth can go to hell. Um, you know, people around the world, vulnerable people, people in the global south, they can go to hell in this form of extractive capitalism, which is kind of the root cause, right? So it's, we need to go to some more socialistic way of organizing society, which basically means we have to start looking out for each other basically, instead of just like taking as much as we possibly can, which is sort of a sociopathic way to organize a society. And when you think about it, right, everyone in it for themselves, I don't care, care if you die. Yeah.

Moby (00:52:30):

And one very odd paradox about that, that I'm sure we have all experienced firsthand is that, so the rich people, they ruin the environment to make a ton of money to buy a country house. So clearly they like the environment, they're just ha So it's so paradoxical. Like, okay, so you're gonna cut down the forest to make money so you can buy a house in a forest. It's such a weird paradox. But the other odd paradox is they're miserable. Like they're destroying the planet and creating all this misery and this hardship. And every wealthy person I've ever met is on antidepressants and anti anxieties. They're cheating on their spouses. They're just, there's so much unhappiness among the billionaire class, among the millionaire class. And so it is this terrible thing, like we're, we're destroying the planet to create wealth for people who are miserable when they're wealthy. And

Peter Kalmus (00:53:23):

So, so I think with this's, probably a good, a good segue into kind of maybe talking about some of the more spiritual aspects of this crisis, because, um, I think they've just gotten so addicted to their own egos, um, and they're so ignorant they can't see that that cause is suffering. And, you know, if you do something nice for somebody else, you get these endorphins, you feel wonderful when you do that. Like, that's the, the easiest way to feel like really good and happy is basically to just go around and do nice things for other people. And when the opposite of that, when you are just like, so, uh, obsessed with having more for yourself, and, and let's be clear, like they don't love nature and a nice environment. They, they love nature and a nice environment for themselves and like everyone else can be damned, right?

Peter Kalmus (00:54:09):

Um, 'cause they just want everything for themselves. And the more, uh, they see other people suffering, the more they kind of feel special, which is sort of what their egos want. And then look at like, it's, it's like private, multiple private jets aren't enough for them now. They're like making their own space companies, right? So it's like they, they wanna enclose the whole universe. It's like this, they're, they're like, speaking of gravitation, they're like black holes of ego. There's never going to be enough money. There's never going to be enough power. Uh, there's never going to be enough suffering of others for their egos. And so it's their, basically their egos have been unchecked.

Lindsay (00:54:47):

So, so this makes me think because I, I see, I see a world where billionaires are buying yachts and going to space, but I also see a world where some people feel so desperate because they know that if their wife gets cancer, then they're looking at $500,000 that they're gonna have to pay out of pocket because they couldn't afford the insurance to begin with. So yeah. If a fuel company offers, if a fossil fuel related company offers them a job, right? They're gonna take it and they're gonna work their off because they have bills to pay. Because we're living in a society where human beings are not supported, where no millennial can buy a house where everyone is just grasping at straws to survive. So they'll take whatever they're given just to be able to,

Peter Kalmus (00:55:28):

That's where the billionaires want us. Uh, that's, that's why we're so helpless. That's, that's a big part of why it's so hard to build a grassroots movement. Um, you know, it's a, it is the biggest David and Goliath story, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> like, uh, these like poor activists who are living a day-to-day basis right. And can barely make ends meet. And they're going up against, uh, historically the most powerful mm-hmm. Corporations and people, wealthiest people the planet has ever seen. It's just, um, it's really grotesque. Like

Lindsay (00:55:54):

Since the Catholic church or something. <laugh>, but worse.

Peter Kalmus (00:55:57):

Yeah. And, and again, this, this is why I, I said earlier, we, we have to make sure that the energy transition has a capitalism transition along with it, which is to say, protects the working class. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So it has to be equitable. That's the only way to do it. So like, look at gasoline, right? So gasoline is a far bigger issue in the United States than global heating. And the, and the literally the destruction of the only planet we know in the universe that has life. So I think the Biden administration, they, the reason they begged to OPEC to increase production, and the reason they've like been setting records, uh, beating even Trump in terms of the new drilling that they've been doing, is 'cause they're desperate to keep gas prices down. 'cause they feel like they'll lose elections. Um, that, that they won't be in power anymore if, uh, gas prices get too high. Um, meanwhile, the, the fossil fuel executives that provide that gasoline have been making record profits from those, uh, you know, from higher gasoline prices and just laughing all their way to the bank. Um, and what that, that the solution, 'cause they

Lindsay (00:56:58):

Want Republicans in office because they get a whole lot more. Yeah.

Peter Kalmus (00:57:00):

Yeah. The solution couldn't be more clear, right? You have to have policies that start ramping down the fossil fuel industry. So you have to start restricting supply because supply of fossil fuel is what's killing our planet. But you have to do it in a way that protects the working class. It's not enough just to wrap down the supply. If you do that, you get working class revolt, they'll put in, you know, a Republican who starts drilling some more and then we're, right? And fossil fuel executives will get richer. So you can't just squeeze the supply. You also have to have price controls, for example, maybe nationalizing the fossil fuel industry, controlling and r rationing the price to make sure working class people can still get to their jobs. And then have policies to increase public transportation, uh, to kind of get transportation away from gasoline vehicles altogether, uh, which takes some time.

Peter Kalmus (00:57:48):

But meanwhile, you need, you know, you need working class to have affordable gasoline. And guess how you do that? You tax the billionaire class, or you can do a carbon fee and dividend mm-hmm. <affirmative> where everyone pays into, uh, this kitty, uh, based on how much fossil fuel you use. Because guess what? Rich people like Bill Gates, his carbon impact and fossil fuel use is what, like tens of thousands of times more than the average person's maybe, you know, like he's just constantly in his private jet. So that'll be pay those rich people would pay more in than than you would distribute it equitably to everyone. So that's just one dumb version of a policy. Uh, but basically all, all of those policies would, would have the ultimate effect of reallocating wealth away from these, uh, capitalistic black holes, which we call billionaires and the ultra rich and back towards the working class people who can barely survive right now.

Peter Kalmus (00:58:40):

Um, so yeah, so, so solving global heating, uh, is in inextricably related to solving this problem of grotesque wealth inequality and extractive capitalism, right? It's not just me being a leftist. Um, that's the only practical way to get out of this. Otherwise you get, you know, a yellow jacket revolts like you had in France when they, they put a, uh, tax on gasoline. And I wish we had a little more of that here in the United States, because it's like in the United States, they give us like streaming video and then like everyone just kind of like, they just come off the streets and watch videos and they're placated. You know, that's, that's sort of what it feels like. And then the billionaires can continue running amok and like raping and pillaging the entire planet. So see, I wish we had a little bit more of that sort of class concern and protest here in the United States. 'cause um, I think that's what we need to get out of this mess, to be honest. Oh, you're

Moby (00:59:32):

Absolutely right.

Lindsay (00:59:32):

Yeah. It's like we're, we're all the kid with the iPad at the table. Yeah. <laugh>. They're like, just watch this and the adults are gonna talk <laugh>.

Peter Kalmus (00:59:41):

W w Yeah. Well, well to speak, speaking of adults, we, we all have to realize that we have to be the adults that basically no one's coming to save us, right? We're on this planet earth and it is in peril right now. And because of that, we're all also in peril. And we have to stand up and be adults and stand up to these idiotic, rich people and save what can still be saved. I, I can't, I don't know how to say it anymore. Clearly this will happen eventually. We will stand up and take a stand. Um, but, but I hope it happens sooner rather than later, because like I said earlier, every day we wait, we lose more irreversibly. So come on, people fight <laugh> fight. I think that's

Moby (01:00:18):

A wonderful place to end on. Yeah.

Peter Kalmus (01:00:20):

Yeah.

Lindsay (01:00:21):

God. People fight. Let's go, let's go. I guess. Uh,

Peter Kalmus (01:00:24):

We can, we can do this. I, I know we can do this, but we gotta band together. We gotta do it now. And we gotta somehow break out of this, this sort of like, uh, we're, we're, I feel like we're sort of anesthetized by, by kind of material, uh, stuff or something. You know,

Lindsay (01:00:39):

I'd love to hear from you, Peter, just to kind of end on a positive note. Um, so people don't have to go take a nap <laugh>, um, because they're a sadness nap. Am I the only one that has to do that? Oh, I just be, I take, I take a daily sadness nap. Okay. Good. <laugh>. Yeah. Of what are you feeling? What, what is making you feel hopeful? Are there any innovations that are coming through? Is there anything that is making you feel like, you know, the, there's just calls for optimism Exactly. Light at the end of the tunnel almost. Yeah.

Peter Kalmus (01:01:08):

There's, there's two things, and I've already mentioned them both. So, uh, people hoping that there's gonna be like a big revelation might be a little disappointed, <laugh>. But the two things are that we barely started to try. Um, and if we really started to try coherently as a society, uh, we would, I, I'm convinced we would solve this very, very quickly. We would surprise ourselves at how we'd be like, oh, that was easier than we thought. We put the CEOs in jail. We ended the fossil fuel industry. We lived a little bit more simply for a while. We transitioned to renewables, we ended animal agriculture. We would solve this so fast. We've barely started to try and we're still divided. We're still squabbling, we're, we're still being divided by the, uh, elite rich class, right? Who like, have us fighting over cultural issues. The working class people, whether they're conservative or liberal, they should band together and realize who the true enemy is, which, which are the rich elites.

Peter Kalmus (01:01:59):

And then the rich elites don't, they don't have allegiance to, uh, they, they have allegiance to one thing, right? Which is their own egos. So that's the first thing that gives me hope we haven't started to try yet, which is a weird kind of hope, right? 'cause there's a chance that we won't start to try. But, but I'd like to think that we will. Um, and the second thing that gives me hope are the, the beautiful, courageous activists who are taking risks, who are out there in the streets, who are disrupting Chuck Schumer's, uh, campaign events, who are risking arrest, who are risking prison time, who are just these selfless, courageous, beautiful, just fiery souls. And I, I, I should have said this when I was talking about my first arrest, it was one of the best things I've ever done in my whole life.

Peter Kalmus (01:02:43):

To, to finally feel like I was a, a sibling to all of those beautiful people out there was just a, a very, very liberating feeling. And, um, if you can swing it, and I know it's, it's hard. Um, and, and it's risky, and, uh, some people have a lot more risk than others. But if you feel like you can swing it, I, I highly encourage you to get involved with, um, nonviolent civil disobedience. Uh, that's, I think that's the spearhead of the movement right now. And if we have, uh, large, large numbers of people doing that, think we'll really move the needle. So

Moby (01:03:15):

Get your chains, get yourself a lock, <laugh>,

Peter Kalmus (01:03:17):

Get creative, get very creative, do stuff that no one's done before. Yeah,

Moby (01:03:21):

I guess prison is the new black <laugh>.

Moby (01:03:25):

Before we sign off, I just wanted to say one thing that I personally find encouraging is the history of humans fixing problems, usually that humans have created. You know, I mean, it's worth remembering. A hundred years ago in the United States, women couldn't vote. Mm-hmm. You know, 15 years ago, same-sex people couldn't get married. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, 15 years ago, people were smoking on airplanes. And Peter, to your point where sometimes change happens mm-hmm. <affirmative> at lightning speed, like when I was growing up, the Soviet Union was just a thing. We thought it was always going to be there. Then lo and behold, the Berlin wall is down. So there is, to your point, it's the opposite of death. By a thousand cuts, there might be healing by a thousand non cuts like healing. Like all of a sudden, maybe we have like this great awakening where people stop using animals for food, they stop using fossil fuels. We replace all of the energy production with weather. Who knows, maybe suddenly cold fusion will become viable. Like it's possible. And I'm holding out hope for this. And I, maybe I'm just like the, who's the opposite of Cassandra?

Peter Kalmus (01:04:28):

That's a good question. Is

Moby (01:04:29):

That the opposite? Sort of like, so maybe I'm being the opposite of Cassandra by saying like, maybe there's this chance that 10 years from now we will all meet up and be like, oh, remember how scared we were mm-hmm. <affirmative> and we fixed it.

Peter Kalmus (01:04:42):

That's, that's because we worked really

Moby (01:04:44):

Hard. That's

Peter Kalmus (01:04:44):

Precisely.

Moby (01:04:45):

We worked hard. And like, lo and behold,

Peter Kalmus (01:04:46):

That's, that's my dream too. That's exactly my dream. I hope I get to see that in my lifetime. And I think that is the lesson. If, if the cosmos is trying to teach us a lesson through global heating and biodiversity loss, that's what it is. It's saying grow the up humans. And I hope we do, because it's, it's going to be the most beautiful feeling. I think we'll be sad at what we lost and that it took us as long as it did. But it's going to be, it's going to be amazing as well to get to that level of maturity. So I, I truly hope that I live to see that happen.

Lindsay (01:05:18):

And we'll be happier too, because we'll be more connected with our planet. We'll breathe deeper. We'll know our children will live in a world that's not going to burn up. I think it'll be such a huge sense of relief once we get to the other side of it. Um, Peter, can you take a moment to just tell anyone listening where they can find you or any books that you've written or documentaries maybe you've made, um, what they are and where they can find them and you

Peter Kalmus (01:05:43):

Personally? Yeah. So I am Climate Human on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok. And I have a book which was published in 2017. So, uh, it's, it's a little outta date, but it's got a lot of good stuff in there too. Uh, it's called Being the Change Live Well and Spark a Revolution.

Moby (01:06:00):

Well, great. This is, I mean, you know, it's funny, Peter, maybe I shouldn't ad admit this, but like Lindsay and I were both really nervous. Not just because this is the first remote podcast we've done, but also because we revere you and the work you're doing and the inspiration you're setting. So this has been both a nerve wracking experience, but such an honor having you on the, on the show.

Lindsay (01:06:21):

I was like, God, I hope I don't talk about cats and clothes on this podcast. And I did it and I failed <laugh>.

Peter Kalmus (01:06:26):

Sorry you guys. Well, thank you so much for having me. It, it's been a great conversation.

Moby (01:06:41):

There's this question, and I don't want to be overarching, but like, why start a podcast? Like why make the effort to have a podcast? And one of the reasons is to talk to people like Peter Kalmus to talk about climate change, to talk about the things that people can do in their own lives or politically or on a corporate level to address climate change. And of course, one of my great frustrations among journalists, among environmentalists, among philanthropists, among even climate activists and scientists, is the unwillingness to look at the role of meat and dairy production in climate change. Like, I can't tell you the number of times I've read an article in the New Yorker or The Atlantic or the wherever about climate change, and they don't mention animal agriculture. They don't mention meat and dairy production. And it makes me crazy. 'cause we cannot, in a serious, impactful way, address climate change without addressing meat and dairy production. So I just wanted to say thank you to Peter Kalmus for being one of the few climate scientists who loudly and unapologetically talks about how dire the situation is with the climate, but also the role of meat and dairy production and climate change.

Lindsay (01:07:53):

It's a beautiful thing because it's very easy to just not buy meat and dairy for yourself. It's such an easy thing that you can do that is a form of activism for climate change. I, it's amazing to me that you can just go buy a different thing and still feel great.

Moby (01:08:09):

I mean, of course I love getting on my soap box about this. And I have gotten on my soap box about veganism and meat and dairy many, many times. But it is the Swiss Army knife of activism. You know, by giving up meat and dairy, you reduce your climate impact, you reduce the use of antibiotics, you protect against rainforest, deforestation, you protect against cancer, diabetes, heart disease, obesity, et cetera, et cetera. So it's like, and you save animals. It's just so interesting that people who ostensibly care about, and I don't wanna be critical, but like, it's just so odd when you talk to people and they're like, they care about animals. They care about climate change, they care about deforestation, they care about human health, they care about workers' rights, but they still continue to buy meat and dairy, which contributes to all of those problems that people supposedly care about. It's just, so the cognitive dissonance is baffling to me, truly

Lindsay (01:09:06):

Same.

Moby (01:09:06):

So long-winded way of saying, thank you Peter Kalmus, and please, if we don't address climate change, every other thing we care about will potentially be destroyed. And I know, I wish there was a friendlier, lighter way to look at it, but there just isn't. Mm-hmm. On that note, on that sad, potentially dark, depressing note, is that too depressing? Is that too dark? Well,

Lindsay (01:09:29):

Here's, here's what we are taking from this is that you can do things. You can read Peter Kalmus's book, connect with him, follow him on social media, stop eating meat, fly less. Try to do all of these things that can lighten your footprint, but also support politicians that support green endeavors.

Moby (01:09:48):

Yeah. And regarding this, one last thing with politicians and corporations, as we've talked about, like they work for us. The reason politicians ignore climate change is 'cause not that many of their constituents care about climate change. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the reason corporations ignore climate change is because no one is really speaking up about climate change. So it's our job to be the loud activist voices that make politicians respond, that make corporations respond because they will, as long as we are willing to speak up. So

Lindsay (01:10:19):

Speak up. Um, I wanna say thank you to Jonathan Nesvadba, who edits this podcast masterfully. Um, and I also wanna say thank you to human content who distributes this podcast for us in a very kind and thorough

Moby (01:10:33):

Way. And thank you for listening. And the very last thing is we want to do a podcast. Lindy and I were talking about money and we realized that, that a lot of people have tons of questions about money, whether it's personal finances, global finances. What is a SPAC, what is, um, did I just use an acronym that made you uncomfortable?

Lindsay (01:10:57):

Yeah, it sounds like a, a snack and a span had baby

Moby (01:11:00):

<laugh> <laugh>. So if you have any questions about money, please send them in because we want to do an episode that talks about money, which is like this uncomfortable thing that no one wants to talk about. But we realize a lot of people have questions and hopefully we will be able to address and help answer some.