Moby (00:00:20):

Okay. Before we go to today's guest, I have some news that I'm sort of excited about.

Lindsay (00:00:26):

Okay.

Moby (00:00:27):

After quite a long time of not DJing, I'm gonna start DJing again.

Lindsay (00:00:31):

Okay. But

Moby (00:00:32):

In a very specific way, time and place.

Lindsay (00:00:36):

Okay. So

Moby (00:00:37):

The first DJ event I'll be doing will be on October 29th at a little bar in Hollywood called Gold Diggers. Mm-Hmm.

Lindsay (00:00:46):

<Affirmative>.

Moby (00:00:46):

And I'll be DJing with Raul Campos from K C R W, an old good old friend of mine. But here's where I hopefully gets interesting. I'll be DJing on October 29th at 2:00 PM until 6:00 PM

Lindsay (00:00:57):

Party Animal.

Moby (00:00:58):

So it's a Sunday afternoon. It's sort of in the tradition of Sunday afternoon disco tea parties. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, there was this, and still goes on where there was like a long tradition of after, after parties that would happen on Sundays for people who'd been up all night. In this case, I assume most people will go, who go won't have been up all night from the night before. <Laugh>. I just love the idea of doing something in the middle of the day. So you walk in like it's a bright sunny day and you walk inside and there's this underground dance music event happening.

Lindsay (00:01:29):

I love it, but

Moby (00:01:30):

There's more. Ready? Yeah. Okay. So the more <laugh>, the more is it's only $5.

Lindsay (00:01:37):

Love that. Because

Moby (00:01:38):

It just seems like we live in this world where people charge so much money for tickets and like going out to a concert in some cases is like a week salary for people. So Raul and I are DJing $5 to get in. That's it. It's

Lindsay (00:01:51):

A low price, $5.

Moby (00:01:53):

And here's where hopefully it gets even better.

Lindsay (00:01:54):

Oh my God.

Moby (00:01:55):

All the money that comes in the door, all the people giving their $5 is gonna go to a charity Started by our next guest

Lindsay (00:02:03):

By Gwenna Hunter.

Moby (00:02:05):

So Gwenna Hunter, who we're gonna talk to in just a minute, she's this super inspiring animal rights activist and vegan who has one of the only vegan food banks in Los Angeles. And I love what she's doing and her commitment to it and her approach to it. So all the money that comes in on October 29th when Raul Campos and I are DJing is gonna go to Gwenna Hunter's vegan food Bank. So the quick recap from what I just said, October 29th, 2:00 PM to 6:00 PM me DJing with Raul Campos, $5 to get in at Gold Diggers in East Hollywood. And oh, the only other thing I would mention, sorry for just rambling on, but boy oh boy, I'm excited and I've had coffee is musically, it's gonna be a very eclectic approach to dance music.

Lindsay (00:02:53):

Like what?

Moby (00:02:54):

So some house music, some souls, some R and B, some dancehall reggae, some old funk, some disco and post disco. So very not just one dimensional dance music, like a really broad eclectic approach to dance music. That

Lindsay (00:03:12):

Sounds so fun. Also,

Moby (00:03:13):

Historically eclectic like songs from two weeks ago and songs from 50 years ago.

Lindsay (00:03:18):

I love that. That sounds like an amazing time, especially for an afternoon. I feel like it's such a nice approach to know that you're gonna get variety. You just came from brunch, your tummy's a little full, you wanna dance it off and you wanna have that like, oh, maybe a little bit of soul. We'll get a different group out onto the dance floor right now.

Moby (00:03:37):

Yes. I love your enthusiasm and I am grateful for it because I'm really excited to do this. Hopefully it works out. And also Gwenna who we're about to talk to, she'll be there. And in between Raul's DJ set and my DJ set, she's gonna come out and talk to the audience. And maybe if people feel inspired, they can donate money in addition to the $5 it costs to get in.

Lindsay (00:03:57):

And I hope that they do, because honestly, Gwenna who, who we will talk to, who you will hear this conversation in a few moments, Gwenna is one of the most beautiful humans. She has this deep spiritual approach to a compassionate way of living. And it's so inspiring and what she's done with her life, which is start this vegan food bank in Los Angeles. I mean, it's moving. She's a fantastic human being and supporting vegans of LA is a really freaking cool thing to do. Mo.

Moby (00:04:28):

Yeah. So how about we go talk to Gwenna now? Yeah.

Lindsay (00:04:30):

I'm so excited for everyone to meet her. <Laugh>.

Moby (00:04:33):

Okay. Let's go talk to Gwenna. Hi Gwenna. Hi

Lindsay (00:04:46):

Gwenna. Hello,

Moby (00:04:47):

<Laugh>. So before we started

Gwenna (00:04:49):

Recording, you

Moby (00:04:50):

Guys were having all sorts of very interesting, very esoteric mm-hmm.

Lindsay (00:04:54):

<Affirmative>

Moby (00:04:55):

Conversations. And I don't want to stop the conversation, but also selfishly, I want to know more about where you come from. And so can I ask just some very basic biographical questions? Yes. Which seems like a disservice. 'cause I love how esoteric, and

Gwenna (00:05:11):

We can go back.

New Speaker (00:05:12):

And nuance the conversation is

Lindsay (00:05:13):

I feel like it will be available when we're ready for it again. <Laugh>.

Gwenna (00:05:16):

Yeah, I'm charged up. I'm, I'll bring it back. <Laugh>.

Moby (00:05:18):

Okay. So just simply, I love knowing about people. Like where were you born, where did you grow up? What were things like when you were growing up? If you can walk us through childhood up until, let's say around 20 or thereabouts.

Gwenna (00:05:31):

Okay. so I was actually born in a little teeny eeny meeny, meeny town called Greensboro, Alabama. Very rural. You can probably walk through it in about 25 minutes. Everybody's either related or date. Like it is just one of those towns, <laugh>. And that's where my mom grew up, very kind of my grandparents and I appreciate it so much. Now they've passed, but I didn't appreciate it as a kid, kid. But they recycled, they grew their own food, their own fruits, vegetables. They did have some animals. And they lived like off the grid and growing up I couldn't stand it, but now it's like, oh, I get it. They were the real environmentalists back then. So, fast forward maybe a year or two. And my mom is in Cleveland, Ohio, and that's where I was raised in Cleveland, Ohio until about 2003. I grew up with my mom. I had a stepdad that was paranoid schizophrenic. That was interesting. I think that helped me, it create so much awareness because I was always like on alert because as a child, deep down I understood that something was off. And so I could always feel when it was going to trigger. And so when I would sense that, oh, something's about to trigger this other aspect, it would make me shift my energy. So I was always on alert. So, can

Moby (00:06:55):

I interrupt for one second?

Gwenna (00:06:56):

Yes. Because

Moby (00:06:56):

I grew up around mentally ill, some mentally ill people. And I don't know if you ever had this experience where I would be walking home from school and I would be a quarter mile away from my house and I'd be like, oh, something's wrong. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>,

Gwenna (00:07:10):

Like, you

Moby (00:07:10):

Developed this sort of like

Gwenna (00:07:12):

Yes.

Moby (00:07:12):

Self-Protective Yes. Radar. You're like, okay, I'm not walk. Like I, I don't remember ever walking into my house being surprised at what was going on. Yeah.

Gwenna (00:07:22):

Like a hyper awareness,

Moby (00:07:23):

Just kind of like, you'd sense this vibration from hundreds of yards or even like further away, like uhoh. Yeah. Someone is decompensating, someone's unstable. Yes. Someone's angry. There's a fight going on, there's a something going on. So I don't know if you ever had that experience.

Gwenna (00:07:38):

Yeah. 'cause you were probably psychic and in tuned, and so you knew something and you knew how to tap into that energy. That's how I was too. Like, I would know, you know, it would just even be something as simple as like, okay, he's, he's a, he's overexerting himself. He's sweating. I would know it's gonna come on shortly. But yeah, I walked home from school, you know, back in the, I grew up in the seventies, so it's like we walked like three miles, like really did, we did walk like a lot <laugh>. So the closer I would get to home, and I think it's because the magnetic energy, the force field, you start to pick up like, okay, there's something going on at my house, or this is this. So yeah, I know exactly what you mean. And, and so yeah, 'cause I always, I, my solace was dream.

Gwenna (00:08:23):

So like, I got a lot of my information, even as I remember dreams when I was four years old, I would get a lot of information about dreams. I would see like dark demonic figures in the house. Like all types of like, weird stuff that I would get. But anyhow, that was until I was like about 12. And then they divorced. And then that's around the time I started getting into like, reading about like near death experiences. My mom had shared a story with me about her seeing a, a dead relative when she was a kid. And I was like, I knew there was something like, I was like just waiting for somebody to share something. And so that just really got me into that. So I was always on this like searching for what the truth is. Like, I was always like, I'm gonna figure you out. Remember Ms. Butterworth? Mm-hmm.

Moby (00:09:05):

<Affirmative>,

Gwenna (00:09:06):

I thought she was real. So I would be like, you can go ahead and talk. Like, I would talk to like <laugh>, you know, it would just be me and her. And I'm like, it's okay. It's just me and you. You can do this. So I would like talk

Moby (00:09:15):

To be fair cartoon Lindsay with Ms. Butterworth before your time?

Gwenna (00:09:18):

No, I was very familiar. <Laugh> like, I mean, I definitely created my own relationships with the many cartoon characters. But

Moby (00:09:26):

Like Ms. Butterworth seemed so welcoming and

Gwenna (00:09:29):

Kind and like,

Moby (00:09:30):

I was like, oh, I wanna be, I want, I wanna be related to Mrs. Butter's

Lindsay (00:09:34):

Butter world. Yeah. That syrup was just, I, god knows what was in it. It was probably all corn syrup.

New Speaker (00:09:39):

You thought it was all sugar. I loved it, so, oh my god, I loved it. Yeah.

Moby (00:09:42):

I remember the first time I had real maple syrup <laugh>, I was horrified. I was like, this is not maple syrup. This I want Mrs. Butterworth. I want log cabin. I want something. Not

Gwenna (00:09:53):

Log cabin

Moby (00:09:54):

<Laugh>. Yeah. I just want something that tastes sweet. Like maple syrup. Syrup. Right. You need

Gwenna (00:10:00):

That diabetes

Moby (00:10:01):

<Laugh>. Yeah. Oh, I love going to IHOP and just pouring all the syrups over those stacks of disgusting cakes. <Laugh>. So sorry. We di That's okay. We digress. <Laugh>. Yeah.

Gwenna (00:10:13):

So yeah, I would look at life like kind of from that lens. I was always ready for the supernatural to like pop off at any time. And I remember watching I think it was Damien or something, it was some movie and the kid was like, telekinetic or whatever. And so ire, I still want that to be honest with you, <laugh>. And so like, I would try to like, make things move with my mind and like, I was just really into all this, like really supernatural stuff. So fast forward to an adult. Yeah. I'm growing up in Cleveland, Ohio. And I left probably in 2003. I was working for a really popular urban radio station at the time, doing marketing and sales and writing commercials and stuff like that. And loved it. And I was like, there were people that I went to kindergarten with that I worked with.

Gwenna (00:11:01):

I was like, I'm just so tired of seeing like the same people all the time. I want to see another part of the world and end up getting a job offer in Miami, Florida. Moved out there and it was like such a culture shock. It was like I went from black, white and a sprinkle of other to everybody. Mm-Hmm. And I didn't know how to handle it. It was almost kind of stressful to me because I was seeking other, like, you know, black people and I would see somebody black and then they speak Spanish, or I see somebody black and they're speaking French. I'm like, well, where the black people? Like, I was just like looking for like, you know, a connection or whatever. And I had a hard time embracing like the culture because it was just so overwhelming. And people kept asking me, what are you?

Gwenna (00:11:45):

And I'm like, I'm black. And they're like, what? No, but what are you? And I was like, I've never had anybody ask me that before. And I'm like, this is up. I don't know. <Laugh>. You know. And I had never even really explored the question. And so moving to Miami, Florida made me dig deeper. And I went there. I always say, I went there, a girl and left there a woman. That's when I felt like I started like activating. I felt really psychic when I was living there. I felt very intuitive. I don't know if it's a combination of the sun and the ocean and all the different elements, but it really activated my, spiritual senses. But I wasn't vegan there yet. I was just, you know, going through life's journeys and paths. And I went from Miami to, `Charlotte, North Carolina after five years.

Gwenna (00:12:36):

And I lived in Charlotte, North Carolina for five years. And I did a stint in Dallas, Texas for a year with a job. And then I did Atlanta, Georgia for a quick minute. Came to Los Angeles to visit and end up never leaving. I wanted to leave, but I kept getting this strong voice telling me, not yet, you're supposed to be here. And it was so strong. And during that time I was going through like poverty. Like I went from abundance to poverty in a very short period of time. And I couldn't wait to leave. But something just kept saying, don't leave. You're supposed to be here. And so I knew I needed to trust. 'cause Anytime I hear that voice, it's never wrong. So February of 2016 is when my life took a whole new direction. And it was from a dream that I had.

Gwenna (00:13:24):

So in the dream, I'm flying in the sky and I see this really beautiful green pasture and this really beautiful cow in the pasture. And I look down and she looks up at me. And when she looks at me it was almost like there were like these two like tunnels. And I felt like I went through it. And when I did, we merged and became one. And I had all of her consciousness and I was the cow. So we merged and became one. I always wonder if she became me, but I know I became her for sure. And in the experience, like her life, like flashed before me, and I possessed every aspect of her childbirth children, how she felt about humans. Like everything she had experienced as her own being. I experienced it too. And so when I came out of the dream, I was like crying because I was like, oh my god, cows love.

Gwenna (00:14:16):

Because that was like the most profound thing that I felt was her love and her nurturing. Like, it was very pure. And I'm like, oh my god, cows love and we eat them. It never dawned on me in all of my, like searching and being spiritual and met. It's all this other. Like, it never even crossed my mind that a cow or a pig or a chicken had awareness. I just was like, okay, their body's on feet and even though they move and give birth, like, I never even questioned it. And at the time I was vegetarian, but not for any ethical reasons. One thing happened during my journey is I couldn't eat cows anymore. Like, I would try to eat, I was eating like corn beef sandwiches or steaks or stuff like that. And I would have the most violent reaction in my body.

Gwenna (00:15:04):

Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And so that I think was like the first, like start like, you, you gonna be saving us. You can't be eating us. You know? But I didn't know what was going on at the time. My body just wouldn't take it. And so I'm crying. I'm just like, oh my God. As much as I'm a believer, I also a like allow myself to be a skeptic too. Like, okay, what just happened here? Like, is this real? 'cause You know, that's a huge awakening to have like coming outta your sleep that animals are conscious and like, it was just, it was a lot for me to process. So I was just like, did this really happen? Did I just eat something weird? Was this real <laugh>? And as I'm like laying in the bed awake, I feel like all of a sudden I felt like this warm felt like a heater.

Gwenna (00:15:45):

Like there was like a really soft heater that somebody put like right over my chest and I'm looking and I'm like, what the heck? And then I put my hand on it, and when I put my hand on it, I was like paralyzed with like the most supreme peace. It was warm, but it wasn't like sitting under a lamp or like a heater warm. It was like this unconditional love warm. And it was quiet and it was soft and it was safe. And I felt like I could have just checked out and like, I'd have been like by earth, like, I'm going wherever this is, I'll hang out here. Like, nice knowing you all. Like if I'd had that option, I would've taken it because that's how beautiful it felt. And maybe it lasted for like, maybe like five seconds and when it stopped I was, and I could, I could feel like a tingle on me.

Gwenna (00:16:31):

And I was like, okay, that was the cow giving me a piece of her, like letting me know this was real. And then because of that experience, like within the next like 24 to 48 hours, I came across Erin Janus's video. Dairy Is F'ing Scary. And when I saw that, I was like, are you really kidding me? Because I thought farmer sits in his blue jean overall sits on the stump, he milks her, she says, move gives her milk. I thought it was a mutual beneficial experience. But when I saw what was going on and I saw the machines hooked up to her, her teeths, and I saw her running after her calf, when they take her child her in the, and they're calling those, those rape racks. And I saw like all this stuff. I didn't think this poor cow. I thought like this poor woman to me, she was like a, another part of the, she was a female, she was a woman.

Gwenna (00:17:22):

And I was like, this is the same blueprint that was used for slavery. Same exact blueprint because taking your children from you not giving you, there was no separation in my mind. And I'm glad it happened like that because you know, sometimes we separate and we're like, oh, don't say this and don't say that. And I've been a part of all that stuff. But the truth is this, that blueprint, it works, you know, convincing the human population that this person isn't worthy. This person came to this planet to be here for you. They're put here for you to do what you want. You can take their child. It's okay. You can do what you want with their body, their labor. You commod them. Like it's the same blueprint. Mm-Hmm.

Moby (00:18:05):

<Affirmative> and

Gwenna (00:18:05):

Like argue with me on, it's the same exact blueprint.

Moby (00:18:08):

I mean, hearing you say it like I agree with you as a cisgendered white man who's also a white Anglo-Saxon Protestant, like <laugh>. When people talk about the Holocaust, I'm just gonna sit here and listen.

Gwenna (00:18:18):

Yeah. When

Moby (00:18:19):

People talk

Gwenna (00:18:19):

About

Moby (00:18:19):

Slavery, I'm like, you know what? I don't know what that experience would be like. Yeah. I'm gonna sit here and listen. But like the logic you're using, you know, like it just makes so much sense.

Gwenna (00:18:29):

I wanna address you being a white, cisgender Protestant male <laugh> and not being able to say these things. And I just wanted to say, you know, in case you know what people are, how they may feel listening to this, that's because there's, the triggers are still so very sensitive mm-hmm.

Moby (00:18:45):

<Affirmative>.

Gwenna (00:18:45):

And I believe at some point, I don't know this lifetime or next, but we'll get to a point where we can talk freely where a white cisgender male can say this and the triggers aren't there. But because of the sensitivity and trauma and unhealed wounds and work that needs to be done, I didn't even share that sub, that part of it for a while. When I was first in the mood, I didn't even share about my dream the first two years that this is why I went vegan because I saw certain people discount spiritual experiences and mm-hmm.

Moby (00:19:16):

<Affirmative>. And then

Gwenna (00:19:16):

I would hear people say, oh, you can't compare this. Like even black people, I would hear, you know, don't do the comparison, don't do that. But I'm like, this is my truth. Yeah. And whatever's my truth is, even if it's a

Lindsay (00:19:27):

Little bit

Gwenna (00:19:28):

Ahead of the curve, it's my truth. And it took me a while to like stand in the power of that and to be honest and to start sharing my own story because I didn't wanna come, I didn't wanna get canceled Yeah.

Moby (00:19:38):

Come

Gwenna (00:19:38):

Up against,

Lindsay (00:19:39):

You

Gwenna (00:19:40):

Know, all this stuff. But now I'm kind of starting not to give a <laugh>.

Moby (00:19:43):

Well that's one of the reasons we were really excited to talk to you further. 'cause When we first met you, the spiritual component of your experience is so powerful. I mean, we, I, we love talking to activists. We love talking to int intelligent people. We love talking to compassionate people. But your, the spiritual dimension of your experience is really fascinating. So I'm glad, I'm glad that you're not keeping your light under a bushel. Mm.

Lindsay (00:20:07):

And also how connected you are to the emotional experience of your activism. I think a lot of people have have to keep it separate because the emotional side of it is so hard. And I know I have to turn that side off because I get so sad, so mad, so just overwhelmed sometimes. Yeah. And you manage to keep it all together where you can have your emotions about it and still stay driven and focused, but

Gwenna (00:20:32):

Not all the time. There's sometimes I get emotional. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, there's,

Moby (00:20:35):

I

Gwenna (00:20:36):

Remember having a, a conversation at an event where I spoke at and I was, I forget what the topic was, but I was explaining like how I give, 'cause I've had to go through different journeys of how I talk to, to people about animal activism and rights and this that and the other without getting cussed out and kicked outta places and things like that. And what I was really trying to tell people was that, you know, you can go vegan because of logic. Like people, it connects people on different reasons. For me, the spiritual part, like knocked me to the floor. You know, if somebody would've gave me a book to read or something, it may not have done much. Maybe if I would've saw a video, maybe that would've helped. But if someone gave me some statistics or some science behind it, that may not have penetrated me, but it penetrated me through what's active in my spirit.

Gwenna (00:21:22):

You know, when this happened, I was like, all I gotta do is just tell people my dream, all I gotta do is just tell people mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, oh they love, that's it. Like, I'm like, I'm about to fix this whole thing right now, <laugh> by just telling people that animals love their children. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> and that they're conscious. And that was further from the truth. And so what I've understood is that it's kind of like an awakening or an activation. And so some people may get activated by hearing you talk about it. Some people are, you know, logical, they data, they want to see the numbers. Okay, then that makes sense to me. I'll go vegan. Some people wanna hear about the health aspect mm-hmm.

Speaker 4 (00:21:56):

<Affirmative>, because

Gwenna (00:21:56):

That may relate to them more and that may cause an activation. So it's just based on whatever is alive in that person. More active is how you penetrate that. And so that helped me to not take it personal, because I went through that, you know, being judgmental, being a mean vegan for a little bit. Because I was just so off at the fact that I had been lied to and trusted the schools to telling me I need to get my protein from steak and not this and that <laugh>. And then I'm finding all this stuff and I'm like, who in the hell is running this ship? Who's creating these lines? Like, so I started just like having all these different and just like my top being blown off and learning that the meat and dairy industry and they fund the public schools and this. And I'm like, wait. So yeah, I was off for like the first four months mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, I was posting slaughter videos on Facebook, like, this must stop and all this other stuff. And then I realized I was alienating people mm-hmm. <Affirmative>.

Gwenna (00:22:48):

And I'm like, okay, I wanna be effective. Let me calm it down. <Laugh>. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, let me tone it down. And I'm, I'm more effective with love anyhow. The anger makes me exhausted and it's distracting. And then you, you attract people that wanna argue with you because they see that you're easy target and they can get some attention from you. And so I realized like, that's not the route for me. I'm more of a lover. So let me go the, the love route. But I remember speaking at an event to all animal rights activists at this event, and I was talking about using compassion in your conversations when you're speaking with strangers, like a way to do it without it being about race and color. One of the guys was like love is not gonna fix this. And he's like, he was telling me like, you gotta use you gotta hit people where it hurts.

Gwenna (00:23:37):

You gotta hit 'em hard and you gotta this and you gotta use logic. A lot of people that you see a lot of celebrities that go vegan because of logic or it's popular and then they turn around and they're like, they're, they're back to eating animals again. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But when you get somebody in the heart, when you help that part open up and that part expands, I feel like you have a, a vegan for life. You know, you have somebody that's in it for the win. Anyway, after this conversation, so many vegans and most of them were white, were coming up to me. They were like, thank you for saying that. I wanna be spiritual and I wanna talk about love, but I, the group that I'm around, they'll get upset. Or people don't, like, I was shocked by how many people were like secretly coming up to me saying, I feel the same way, but I don't feel safe talking about love around other animal rights activists. And I'm like, this is absolutely crazy because love, the lack of love is why we're in this position to begin with. Mm-Hmm.

Moby (00:24:34):

You reminded me of Ellie who runs Gentle Barn.

Lindsay (00:24:37):

Okay. Ellie Lacks.

Moby (00:24:38):

So the first time I went to Gentle Barn, she did something so strategic that sort of proved your point. There was, it was a Saturday afternoon, there were all these people waiting in line to get in. And some guy in line was making jokes 'cause you could see the cows. And he was like, he was like, Hmm. Burgers. And he looked over and saw some pigs. He was like, he's like, I'm gonna, you know, like it makes me think of hot dogs. I wanted to like yell at him and maybe even like push, get in a shoving match in the parking lot. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, I go so mad at this guy. And Ellie walked over and said to him and smiled and said, oh sir, I'm sorry that that's all you see when you look at a cow. Like what I see is like a mother, you know mm-hmm. <Affirmative> who's capable of love, but I'm sorry that you can't see that. Mm.

Gwenna (00:25:23):

And

Moby (00:25:23):

This guy was transformed.

Gwenna (00:25:26):

Wow. Wow.

Moby (00:25:27):

Like he was like, instantly you could tell like she had ninja style <laugh>, like

Gwenna (00:25:32):

She disarmed him. <Laugh>. Yeah.

Moby (00:25:34):

Like absolutely. I wanted to go up and like, you know, again, being an angry white guy from Connecticut, <laugh>, like, I wanna go over and like get in his face and be like, how dare you? You know, like, you're the problem. In which case he would've gotten defensive. We wouldn't have gotten in a fight. 'cause I'm a big sissy <laugh>. But like nonetheless she proved to me like, oh, responding to hate with love isn't just a greeting card. It's strategy. Yes. And it's effective strategy. You know, I mean, look at Martin Luther King Jr. Or Gandhi. Like you respond to violence with love, with compassion, with understanding. You don't lie down and let people necessarily hurt you, ideally. But your point really Yeah. Reminded me of like the people who can do that are the, the saints.

Gwenna (00:26:16):

But also

Lindsay (00:26:17):

It sees that his behavior, that guy's behavior on that day was an internal problem with him. He has some unresolved anger, some that has turned into toxicity or some trauma that has turned into, that's how he protects himself from the scary world Yeah. Around him. Yeah. And one little switch of perspective Yes. Can heal something. Yes. That's maybe closer to the surface than anyone would care to believe it.

Moby (00:26:41):

It's like, it's like, it's like spiritual chiropractic

Gwenna (00:26:44):

Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Yeah, I think so.

Moby (00:26:45):

You know, like, like an adjustment that all of a sudden everything changes as a result of it. Mm-Hmm.

Gwenna (00:26:49):

<Affirmative>. Yeah.

Lindsay (00:26:49):

But it's different with everyone. Like the spiritual side of it, I, once a long time ago did an energy healing course and two people came out of it unable to eat meat after that because it, it connected them with some, they became so sensitive to feelings. And they told me that during the course of that thing they had tried to eat meat and it made them feel sick because they tasted, they could feel or were more connected with that animal's pain and suffering. Wow.

Gwenna (00:27:20):

Two

Lindsay (00:27:20):

People from that program.

Gwenna (00:27:21):

You need to continue doing that type of work.

Lindsay (00:27:23):

Yeah. It was beautiful.

Moby (00:27:25):

It does make me think like, I mean it's, and I'm really thrilled that you're here and we're talking about this that we'll call it like the non-quantifiable spiritual aspect of existence. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And what's fascinating is the quantum realm is all this, you know, you were talking earlier about like the power of words and self-talk to actually transform you. So in the quantum realm that happens

Gwenna (00:27:49):

Yes.

Moby (00:27:49):

Observing light, yes. You

Gwenna (00:27:51):

Can

Moby (00:27:51):

Determine whether it's a particle or a wave. Yes.

Gwenna (00:27:53):

Like

Moby (00:27:53):

There is Yes.

Gwenna (00:27:54):

The

Moby (00:27:54):

Power of thought, the power of words. But it's so interesting that like we don't trust, like when two plus two doesn't equal four, people immediately point their finger and say, you're a witch, we need to burn her. Yeah.

Gwenna (00:28:07):

<Laugh>,

Moby (00:28:08):

You know?

Gwenna (00:28:08):

Yes. Yes. Oh my God. Or

Lindsay (00:28:09):

You're crazy

Gwenna (00:28:10):

And

Lindsay (00:28:10):

We don't trust you. Instead of saying, maybe I can open up my mind a little bit. That's right.

Gwenna (00:28:15):

That's right.

Lindsay (00:28:16):

Or maybe more thing more than one thing can be true.

Gwenna (00:28:18):

That right there, the, that's something I've

Lindsay (00:28:21):

Been

Gwenna (00:28:22):

Into a lot lately is like, we're always forced to like make a choice. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, it has to be A or B. And then you're like, okay, this, that. But both can be true at the same time. Yeah. And I'm learning that with so many different things. And it's like with the anger, you know, there, there's still an angry vegan in here. Like she's, she's in there mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and she wants to sometimes fight and cuss people out and stuff like that. But I manage her because I know that that's not going to, like, I'm not trying to win anything. Yeah. And so like, I've had to learn over the years how to have conversations with people. First talk I ever gave, I was working for vegan outreach and I was at a library in Watts and and we were

Lindsay (00:29:02):

Feeding people and it was

Gwenna (00:29:03):

Like my first time getting ready to talk and I was already like shaking, having like internal anxiety and I'm just like, oh my God. And they were already looking at me like, what you about to talk about <laugh>? And I was terrified. And of course my worst fear came true. 'cause I'm talking about animal rights, which I did it that way. And you're in a community of people that, you know, struggling to pay the bills, keep the lights on, eat, and you're talking about the rights of animals. They don't wanna hear this. You know, they're like, what the hell do I wanna hear about that for? I just got arrested for something crazy. And you know, they don't wanna hear that. So I got, I got cursed out and the guy went off on me and I handled it and, and brought it back in.

Gwenna (00:29:42):

But I was terrified after that. And so I had to learn how to have these conversations. And so one of the things that I like to say when I'm talking to people of any background is it's a very universal conversation. I usually like to start off and ask people, has anyone ever experienced any form of trauma or suffering in their life? And, you know, if you're an adult, most people have experienced some type of suffering or some type of trauma in their life. Has anyone lost autonomy of their body? Has anyone ever been abused? Has anyone ever been taken advantage of? Has anyone, you know, been mentally or physically abused? And so it kind of puts people in a different type of state mm-hmm. <Affirmative>.

Gwenna (00:30:18):

And then, you know, I let people know too that to help disarm people. 'cause I usually ask people like what they know about vegans. Well, they're judgy and preachy and it, like, there's always these judgements about us because sometimes we do go into places a little preachy and judgy and so to kind of disarm people or just to help them surrender their hearts just a little bit, you know, I'll remind them like, yeah, I ate all of it too. I loved it. You know, just to kind of let people know like, I'm a real person and I was just like you, I wasn't born vegan. And I'll tell them like, you know, with these animals, like we eat, like the way we like consume, like we eat their arms and we eat their legs and we eat their butts and we eat their breasts. Like, can't we actually eat somebody's breasts?

Gwenna (00:31:00):

We put somebody's breasts on a plate and we eat it and we're told that this is healthy. We eat their necks. And then we go inside their bodies and then we eat their organs and we eat their livers and we eat their hearts, and then we take their ribs out of their body and then we barbecue their ribs and put sauce on 'em. I'm like, that's crazy. Right. You know, and people are looking at me, they're like, oh my God, this is like completely like the way you're looking. Like it's completely disgusting. But it's like, no one can ever argue with me because I'm not, I'm just saying what we do. And then I'm like, and then we, after we're done, you know, eating their butts and legs and feet and hands and all that stuff and eating their hearts and liver and ribs, then we take the skin off their body and then we like wear 'em.

Gwenna (00:31:44):

We make coats out of 'em. We make shoes and purses. And I'm like, if I didn't know any better, I feel like we were on a, some type of, you know, this, some type of cult, like some type of blood cult. And then people start like looking at each other and they're like, oh my God, this is actually disgusting. Because now it's, it, it kind of helps wake you up to what we're actually doing on this planet. And it's like, if I wasn't from here and I came with this planet, I'm like, they do what?

Moby (00:32:09):

There is a theory that there's tons of intelligent space fairing life in the universe. And they took one look at earth and they're like, oh, stay away from that Uhhuh

Gwenna (00:32:18):

<Laugh>. It's

Moby (00:32:19):

Like they're, they'll lock you in a cage and they'll eat you. Yes. Like,

Gwenna (00:32:22):

Yes. So

Moby (00:32:23):

Like that the aliens every now and then check in on us. Like, have they figured this out? Right. That maybe like torturing and killing innocent beings and eating them and wearing their skin is not the best way to live. Yeah.

Gwenna (00:32:34):

So

Moby (00:32:35):

There might be I

Gwenna (00:32:35):

Do a drive by Earth like, Nope,

Moby (00:32:37):

<Laugh>. Yeah, yeah. Exactly.

Gwenna (00:32:38):

Like, no thanks. They

Moby (00:32:39):

Like take a look at our solar system. They're like, well the rest of it seems interesting. But that one planet where they torture and kill innocent beings and eat them and wear them, let's give that a miss.

Gwenna (00:32:47):

Exactly.

Lindsay (00:32:48):

Where they cut down their beautiful old growth forests and rainforests so that they can have more blood and skins to wear. And they kill each other

Gwenna (00:32:55):

In wars. They actually think

Lindsay (00:32:57):

They're

Gwenna (00:32:57):

Enemies. Mm-Hmm. Yeah.

Moby (00:32:59):

Yeah.

Lindsay (00:32:59):

They kill

Moby (00:32:59):

Each other based on, based on the way oftentimes the beliefs that they have about the benign loving architect of the universe. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, it's like killing someone because you have a different idea. But

Lindsay (00:33:11):

It's also to forgive a little. It's all we've ever known. It's the world we were born into. It's the world our parents were born into and their parents before. And I think it's such a, a, a hefty load to say let's redo it all. But I think that it's happening in little pieces. Like when I went vegan in Texas in 2005, people were like, veian, what

Moby (00:33:38):

Is she? <Laugh>,

Lindsay (00:33:39):

What is it? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So you can have chicken.

Moby (00:33:42):

Are you from the, are you from the planet veggie?

Lindsay (00:33:44):

Yeah. Like, they didn't know. And now I would say everyone has an a near intimate awareness Yeah. With what it is. So I feel like even in my lifetime, in a chunk of my lifetime, I have, we have all seen change. Yes. Happen. Yeah. But it doesn't make it feel any better because then, you know, you have meaningful conversations like this with people and then you see them like laughing and giggling over a, over a burger and it's like, mm. Yeah. But you know that there's other options at least. And that's improvement.

Moby (00:34:17):

He reminded me there is that, and I was having this conversation, I, I've probably name dropped him before, but with, with Cory Booker after he was elected, is the question of like, 'cause we've lived through huge changes mm-hmm.

Lindsay (00:34:29):

<Affirmative>, you

Moby (00:34:29):

Know, if we were having this conversation 40 years ago, well granted Lindsay, you would not have been born. This is true. But at that point, the Soviet Union was there, people smoked on airplanes, same sex couples couldn't get married. There were no black senators, there were no black governors. There were no, yeah.

Lindsay (00:34:46):

Different

Gwenna (00:34:47):

Worlds. Everything

Moby (00:34:47):

Was completely different. And so now, like we've seen radical, huge change. Like one day the Soviet Union wasn't there anymore. One day people couldn't smoke on airplanes one day. Same-Sex couples could get married. One day we had a black president. So it's the question, when does this change? When does when the way we eat, the way we treat innocent beings, like when is that change going to happen? Where now we're like, oh sure. Same sex couples. I mean, unless you're some lunatic republican who's

Lindsay (00:35:16):

Trying to overturn that currently. Yeah. Mm-Hmm.

Moby (00:35:18):

<Affirmative>. But like, like when are we going to sort of like look at using animals for food and fashion, the way we look at smoking on airplanes? Yeah.

Lindsay (00:35:27):

Like,

Moby (00:35:28):

It might still exist, but boy, it's weird and barbaric and I can't believe people used to do that. Yep.

Lindsay (00:35:32):

And I will say, my mother knows what attachment theory is now. I

Gwenna (00:35:36):

Feel like, like there's a

Moby (00:35:37):

Revolution. Well, she's also got you who she talks to every day for like

Gwenna (00:35:41):

<Laugh>. But I do feel like because of my generation and, and especially Gen Z, there is like, people are starting to care more about themselves. And I have a deep belief that until humans can figure their own out, animals are super boned. Like until humans can learn to. Was

Moby (00:35:58):

That a pun?

Gwenna (00:35:59):

Yes.

Moby (00:35:59):

Okay. <Laugh>

Gwenna (00:36:00):

<Laugh>, like animals can't thrive. You know, oppressed humans can't thrive until we all can figure out how to treat ourselves better and be more compassionate internally. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> so that that can compassion can then turn out is, and also how to take care of ourselves in a way so we can be worried about other people. I think a lot of people are so day to day, how am I going, where am I going to sleep? How, how am I going to eat? Yeah. To be concerned about an animal when they don't know how they're gonna survive the next day is too much to ask. Yeah.

Moby (00:36:32):

So

Gwenna (00:36:32):

As we can find more comfort and ease in our lives as humans, I think then we can extend it to animals as well. I

Moby (00:36:40):

Completely agree with that. I guess this is about, quite a while ago, I went to an animal rights event and David Carter, the 300 Pound Vegan was speaking and he got in front of this huge audience of basically like white animal rights activists. And he said, look, he said, look, I gotta tell you I, I'm the only black person here. And that's weird. Like mm-hmm. You know, like, he's like, you know, like, like why is the movement so white? And people are like, yeah, that's a really good question. And then I feel like it's changed. Have you noticed that? And what do you think? Oh

Gwenna (00:37:18):

God. Have I noticed? So when I first started out, I created community called Vegans of LA and I put it on Facebook and started posting stuff and it started growing. And, but it was mostly white women initially. And I didn't know any black vegans, like in real life, just like somebody that lived in Maryland or in another state. But I didn't know any in real life. And I remember as I started posting things like, you know, I would feel compelled to post things about animals and from black people, I would get, oh, this is some white. Or wired, you must care more about people than like, the typical boring stuff that people always say like, oh, you care more about, because I think people weren't sure who ran the page, but I posted mostly things for like black people. Recipes and different influencers and things like that. And so sometime I would get, like, I would feel exhausted from taking the hits and it'd be like, oh God, do I wanna post today about, you know, what's in my heart? And sometime I would cower and not do it 'cause I'm like, I don't feel like taking the hits today. Mm-Hmm.

Gwenna (00:38:24):

And it was just like, golly, why are we lacking so much compassion when it comes to animals? But if I post anything like a recipe or something about health, people would be into it. So I had to realize that people just haven't, at that time, I felt like just haven't expanded their hearts. Because I know when I was growing up, you didn't see dogs in a person's house. They considered that nasty. Dogs are usually tied up to trees. They were given scraps from the table. So there wasn't like, how would I see it now? It was, it was totally different when I was growing up, how

Moby (00:38:56):

This was in the deep south or this

Gwenna (00:38:58):

Is like in Cleveland.

Moby (00:38:59):

Okay.

Gwenna (00:38:59):

In the hood. And so yeah, animals were like usually get left outside or, you know, chained to a tree and you know, given their food they're, let off for a little bit. But talked to very sternly. So I never really saw that, like animals sleeping in the bed with you, them kissing on you. Like those things were kind of like taboo. Like, you don't do that. And so I think a lot of other black people grew up, you know, very similar. But I started noticing like probably around like 2019 or so, black people speaking up for animals or agreeing with something. I'm like, oh, the shift is happening. Like now I could post something about animal and I'm not getting, like now I'm getting cheers instead of all the booze. At first, in the beginning it was like, I, I felt like I was on an island.

Gwenna (00:39:43):

I'm like, my goodness. Like where are the people that actually, well it's health or is this, it's like, but you can do all of it. You can actually love an animal and you can love a human too. You don't have to choose. It's not a choice. You don't have to pick one over the other. And so yeah, seeing that journey and now it's like, I see so many, especially when I go on social media, so many vegans of color that are talking about animals and are, that came into the movement because of animals and that are in it for animals health, the planet, the environment. And so yeah, just seeing the evolution. But I know when I first got involved in like animal rights and volunteering and everything, there were these two worlds I was in. So, you know, here in la the white vegan community kind of like scooped me up and taught me thy ways and <laugh>, you know, speciesism and things I had never even heard of. And all the fricking rules. And you don't eat honey, you don't say pet, you don't do like, it was just like, woo goodness, like all these fricking rules. It was like so many different things that I was like learning. But I wouldn't have learned that in the black vegan community. But in the black vegan community, once I got involved with that, there was to me a little bit more acceptance and more patience of like the journey. Mm-Hmm.

Moby (00:40:54):

<Affirmative>. Whereas

Gwenna (00:40:55):

I would see people in the white vegan community at that time, if somebody made a mistake or was in a group and said, oh, I, I just saw I ate some chicken wings last night. What should like, oh, you did this. Well, like, people would just like pound on them. Or if somebody had a question about honey, you see 500 comments. It's like, why are you the 500 person making the comment? Like, you don't need to go in there and say anything. And so it felt like with white people, I could be vulnerable about animals with black people. I could make mistakes or I could be honest about this, that and the other without getting condemned. So it was like these two worlds where one part I felt accepted, the other part I felt rejected. This part I felt rejected. This side I felt accepted. So I had to like, within myself, you know, create my own <laugh> community acceptance. But the journey was rough in the beginning. But yeah. Now I see the movement. And, and not sure if you know this, but this is probably for like the third straight year could be longer that African Americans specifically are the fastest growing population to go vegan.

Moby (00:41:56):

Oh, without question. I mean, I, I started seeing it when I owned Little Pine.

Gwenna (00:42:00):

Mm. Yeah.

Moby (00:42:01):

Because it was just sort of a given for the longest time that you would go to a vegan restaurant and it would just be, it would be very white. It was gender mixed, which was nice. You know, very, very welcoming, very inclusive. But like veganism was largely a Caucasian thing. And I would say from my perspective, it was around 2015, 2016, I started noticing this wonderful change. And there was one day at Little Pine when I owned it, where like the majority of people in the restaurant were people of color. And I just thought, wow, you would never have seen this. And I went, I went to Real Food Daily one day, and it was the vast majority of people in the restaurant were people of color, like 80%, 20%. And I'm just like, oh. So finally, like, yeah,

Gwenna (00:42:51):

The

Moby (00:42:51):

Shift has happened. Granted, we're in Los Angeles, it might not be happening elsewhere, but I like being so inspired again, like, and I say this qualifying it being an inbred white guy from Connecticut, <laugh>, but like, being so inspired by the, the energy and the passion and the perspective that people of color have, you know? Yeah. I mean like John Lewis, badass,

Gwenna (00:43:15):

Vegan.

Moby (00:43:15):

Yeah. Like his perspective, his energy is, so there's a, just like a sort of like a joy and fearlessness mm-hmm.

Gwenna (00:43:24):

<Affirmative>, it's

Lindsay (00:43:25):

Very contagious.

Gwenna (00:43:26):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah.

Moby (00:43:27):

Like a lot of us white people are just not very good at being joyful or fearless <laugh>. Like, we're all sort of a like either like angry or apologizing.

Gwenna (00:43:35):

Yeah. Which both can be annoying. Yeah. <Laugh>. Yeah, definitely <laugh>. Both can be annoying. It's interesting because you said angry or apologizing. It just made me think of a experience. I had created this group at the time, it's not very active now, but I had created a group called Vegans for Black Lives Matter, right in the height of George Floyd. And I didn't even know why I created the group because I don't like, I really don't want a group. I don't wanna be bothered with people's energy and emotions and creating a group and managing that. But it came to me like a divine, like pinging to do it. And so I'm like, okay, I already, every time I get this divine pinging, I know to just trust it. So I created the group and wasn't gonna really do anything with it for like a couple weeks, but then next day there were like 500 people in the group.

Gwenna (00:44:19):

The next day it was like a thousand. And next thing I know, there's like, I think at the time, at that time it was like ended up being like over 4,000 people in the group, pretty much all vegans. And because of all the hostility that was going on between like with George Floyd and all of that, there was so much, and it was mostly white people in the group. There was so much anger and sadness and apologizing and rage. And I'm very like, what you, we call empathic so I can feel something through the phone. I can read it if somebody text it and feel it. So I'm like taking in all this stuff. And it was just so much just so much energy and emotion and so much apologizing. And the apologizing was more toxic than the rage. Mm. It was like, please stop apologizing. Just step up, empower yourself. So I just wanted to share that because when you said those two words together, it brought me back to when I, when I was when the group was in its height and how toxic over apologizing can be for a situation. So I just wanted to share that

Lindsay (00:45:28):

Something I noticed that you keep bringing up is that you are, you are very driven to start communities, start groups, start these movements. Because when that was going on, it would've never occurred to me to say, I'm gonna start a group for this in my niche. You know? But you seem so driven to do that. A what do you think drives you to do it? And B what are some of the other groups that you started some of your favorites?

Gwenna (00:45:56):

Yeah. So when I started the group Vegans for Black Lives Matter, I, I really can't like give you a beautiful answer because I really was in opposition of creating the group. I don't know if it's like an ancestor or a guide or my higher self or just a part of me that's activating because this was meant to be. But one of the purposes that I realized for the group was like, we all needed a place to contain our anger

Gwenna (00:46:19):

And to share our pain and our rage. And this was a safe and also unsafe place to do that. And so I realize now the purpose of why that was necessary, because so many hard conversations were being had in the groups and really ugly conversations, people cussing each other out. I was getting cussed out, kicking people out the group, getting people yelling at me, mad at me, white women in my inbox telling me I'm racist for doing this. Like, all types of like really hard conversations. And then for me, I had been someone that had been like suppressing my feelings over police brutality or bad treatment of black people. It's like, I don't wanna see it. So I would like see a quick snippet of it on the news and I click off or I see it on my timeline and I click off. 'cause I'm like, I do not want to feel that. But it was still in me. So having the group, I had to like be honest with myself and like allow myself to like, feel and read the article, watch the whole video process, the feelings. And so that was probably like a really empowering and also depressing year because I cried a lot that year.

Speaker 5 (00:47:30):

Mm-Hmm.

Gwenna (00:47:30):

But I let myself do it because I knew that I needed to like process the pain and the energy and stop suppressing and ignoring stuff and actually go head on and face it. And I think that's probably why so many other people in the group, because they needed to do the same. So it was a place for us to just kind of like deal with our emotions and our energy. And then also, you know, also dealing with what's going on with the animals. You know, because when you really think about that horror story, think about what's happening to an animal right now at a slaughterhouse. It's like, okay, I'm thinking about animals being slaughtered, they're going through this. Then police, like, it was a lot mm-hmm. <Laugh>, it was a very, very heavy year. So I've had to learn how to like process this. Even now, like if I go through my timeline, if I see some warning, I'm like, Nope, I'm not about to watch that.

Gwenna (00:48:19):

Yeah. You know, even if it's animals or whatever, I, I pick and choose when I wanna like have all that stuff. But you know, as an activist most, most of us that I've experienced, that I've gotten to know, we know what it's like to deal with abuse or trauma or drama or some form of pain. And so that's why we connect so easily with this type of movement and with the animals. And you know, for me too, it's not just the animals too. It's also like you're gonna liberate the animals, but how are you gonna do that when, when humans are have not been liberated? But in a sense, I also say that we are liberated. So I gotta figure out how to say this without being canceled. 'cause I don't know if you're gonna highlight this or not. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. But, so there's certain words that I've outgrown using for humans, especially for black people.

Gwenna (00:49:12):

'Cause I notice, like in this movement, it's very popular to be put in these different boxes and then put into another box and then another box in another box. Meaning like black woman, if you're trans, if you are disabled, if like all these different boxes, if you're oppressed, which is probably one of the most popular boxes, and I don't, particularly for myself, if you choose that description, I have no argument with you. But for Gwenna, I, I do not want to ever be described as oppressed, nor do I wanna be described as marginalized. Nor do I wanna be described as a minority key word minor. And because words matter. And to me, so it's like if you are like, we are in oppressive system, there are things in place where oppression is created, there's obstacles, there's roadblocks to prevent certain people from winning. But to me, the person that's doing that, they're oppressed.

Gwenna (00:50:07):

There's no reason for me to call myself oppressed. And so I'm not even sure why I'm even going with this. But you know, once I came to this realization, it was like another level of awakening. Like, wait a minute, why am I letting people call me oppress? So like I have, I started a vegan food bank last May, and when people ask to like, write about the food bank or tell a story about it, I let them know. Do not describe to people that come to the food bank as oppressed. Do not describe them as marginalized. Free food is empowering. It's your birthright. First of all, everybody should be entitled to free food. There should be free food resource centers all over the planet, all over zip club, especially in Los Angeles. So free food shouldn't be a sad thing to where we have to say, oh, these poor people standing in line and blah, blah, blah.

Gwenna (00:50:52):

It's like, no, I, I do not allow people to do that if it's under my control. But again, it's like words matter. Like when you strip away all the illusions, all the, all the uniforms, all the badges, all the titles, all the robes. We're all here as regular people on the planet. But we've allowed certain systems in place and we've allowed certain people to take control and do this and, and rule over and play these different games. But the thing is, we're all one, like, we're all on the same planet together. Like, what's the coincidence in that? Like, we're all here together. There's so many studies that say like, the first person came from Africa and from that we're all freaking one, there really is no separation. The separation, and you being you and you being you, and you being you. You know, that's just part of the game and part of the illusion.

Gwenna (00:51:45):

But we are one family. We're one team. And I personally believe that planetary unity, which is plug for my new nonprofit <laugh>, <laugh> is possible in this lifetime. I didn't think that before. I think, oh, it's gonna take probably like 10 generations for planetary unity. But all it takes is just a shift in mindset and unity doesn't mean that you all love each other and like each other and all that, but it means that you come together for a common cause like we do as vegans. Like we know in the vegan world, we do not all like each other. Like we have our drama in this movement, but we do agree on one thing that we shouldn't be eating animals. That's unity. So if we do more of that in different areas and come together, no one can put us under these programs and illusions. But also too, I also believe that some of these struggles are part of the game. So I wanna share one little quick experience that I had. This was under Aya, and I found myself at a slaughterhouse. And at the slaughterhouse. So

Moby (00:52:44):

This is a, a visualization?

Gwenna (00:52:45):

Yeah.

Moby (00:52:46):

Okay.

Gwenna (00:52:46):

Yeah. Under, under the plant medicine, Aya. And under it, I, I'm at the slaughterhouse and there's pigs and there's cows and they're all standing in line and I could tap in. I knew that they knew that they were next to be slaughtered. Like they have full awareness. So I started yelling. I'm like, just don't reincarnate, don't come back here. Like, that was my solution. I'm like, just don't come back. Don't come back to the planet. We keep eating, you harming, you hurting. You just don't come back to the planet that should solve it. And this pig spoke up and he said, we'll, keep coming back until you all figure it out and get it right. We love you that much. And I instantly understood the bigger picture of it all. We're all here to help each other evolve. Even the animals. He even has it. Like, he came here knowing, you know,

Gwenna (00:53:34):

Yeah. You know, like <laugh>, like we come here with our plan and purpose. So do they. Okay.

Moby (00:53:39):

So you reminded me that's such a beautiful story for some reason you were talking about earlier and we've, we've covered a lot of ground. But you were talking about a sort of, maybe an experience you had where you had this understanding of like there might not, the idea of good and evil. Oh

Gwenna (00:53:53):

Yeah. My awakening, I had

Moby (00:53:55):

Like an awakening and it made me think of something that's very culturally misunderstood, is I'm really, even though I'm not a a religious person, I love the beginning of the Bible. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know,

Gwenna (00:54:07):

Genesis, which

Moby (00:54:08):

Is also, it said in the beginning of the Bible, which seemingly a lot of religious people ignore, God tells people to be vegan. You know, it's on the first page of the Bible, <laugh>, there's a prescription from God, what we're supposed to eat. Mm-Hmm.

Gwenna (00:54:20):

<Affirmative> plants. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, what does he say?

Moby (00:54:22):

Yeah. It actually, on the first page of the Bible, it says like, and I give you every seed bearing plant as your food.

Gwenna (00:54:27):

Yes.

Moby (00:54:28):

Kind of right there on first page. Yeah. But one fascinating thing is this idea that there was a snake and he tempted eve with an apple.

Gwenna (00:54:37):

It's

Moby (00:54:37):

Actually not what happened. What Eve and Adam, again, on a figurative metaphoric level, they ate of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. They ate separation.

Gwenna (00:54:49):

You know,

Moby (00:54:49):

They ate division. If you look at it metaphorically, and I find this so interesting, God didn't kick Adam and eve out. Adam and Eve left. And God didn't say like, how dare you, you did a terrible thing. He is like, okay, guess what? Now that you have embodied separation, you have to leave connection with the divine. Everything else is connected with divine animals, insects, trees. They're still living in a state of grace. And we are not. And that helps me to understand the weirdness of humans. 'cause You look at us like our behavior doesn't make any sense.

Gwenna (00:55:23):

Yeah.

Moby (00:55:23):

You know, that we kill each other, we kill ourselves, we kill the only home we have, we poison ourselves. We're like, we're so disconnected from the divine. Whatever that might be. It's so interesting. People think of this like, oh, well, yeah, Eve was weak, so she ate an apple. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, I was like, oh no, no. It was humans who have separated themselves from the divine. Yeah.

Gwenna (00:55:43):

But people love that story because, you know, especially men, it empowers them to blame us for all the. And <laugh>. Yeah, exactly. It's your fault. You ate the apple <laugh>. There's

Moby (00:55:52):

One other, just, just as a tangent, a really interesting aspect of the creation story. One, it follows exactly the story of the evolution of the universe. You know, in the beginning there was nothing and there was a big bang. God created light, whoever God is, whatever light is. And then basically the origin of life in the creation story is exactly what followed on the planet. Things in the ocean, then things on land, and then lastly humans. Yeah.

Gwenna (00:56:20):

So

Moby (00:56:21):

That's quite interesting. But there's one other aspect is God is defined as a multiple entity. When God creates humans, he says, oh, they're like us describing God as a multiple being as opposed to monotheism. It's just this one interesting line. Yeah. I'm like, oh, that's kind of interesting that God identifies as a multi-part being

Gwenna (00:56:42):

Missed. That one

Moby (00:56:43):

Along with God prescribing a vegan diet. So we might edit that part out. 'cause I'm just rambling like a crazy person.

Gwenna (00:56:49):

No, I, but something really

Lindsay (00:56:50):

Interesting is, I keep saying the word

Gwenna (00:56:51):

Compassion, and it's the word I always think about that we are,

Lindsay (00:56:53):

We are lacking

Gwenna (00:56:54):

Compassion. But I think

Lindsay (00:56:55):

What you are, what you are saying, and

Gwenna (00:56:57):

Maybe the better word

Lindsay (00:56:58):

Is connection.

Gwenna (00:57:00):

Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, we've become so

Lindsay (00:57:01):

Disconnected from

Gwenna (00:57:02):

How a

Lindsay (00:57:03):

Pig feels,

Gwenna (00:57:03):

How a cow feels, how the dog

Lindsay (00:57:05):

On the

Gwenna (00:57:05):

Chain feels. How, how

Moby (00:57:08):

Our neighbor feels,

Gwenna (00:57:08):

How our neighbor feels. How

Lindsay (00:57:09):

The person right now

Gwenna (00:57:10):

In

Lindsay (00:57:11):

Ukraine

Gwenna (00:57:11):

Feels Yeah. Like how we are so how the Russian

Moby (00:57:14):

Soldier feels. How exactly.

Gwenna (00:57:15):

Yeah, that's right. Like, we are

Lindsay (00:57:16):

So disconnected from it

Gwenna (00:57:19):

Because I think

Lindsay (00:57:20):

Part of our brain feels like we have to,

Gwenna (00:57:21):

Because just keeping this body feels like a lot of work. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But I think it's, it's kind of added nuance to my term of we lack

Lindsay (00:57:30):

Compassion

Gwenna (00:57:31):

Because I also think that we, we don't have the same

Lindsay (00:57:34):

Connection. That's a

Moby (00:57:35):

Great point.

Gwenna (00:57:36):

Yeah. And

Lindsay (00:57:37):

What about

Gwenna (00:57:37):

This, what if, you know, all of us are God, like, you know, it's like you take a glass of water and then like that's a cup of water, but then you stick your hand and you go sprinkle, sprinkle, sprinkle, sprinkle, sprinkle, <laugh>. They're all little separate water drops. Doing their own thing, having their own lives. But they're still part of the whole mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, which is what I believe to be. And even in the Bible, and I'm not a big Bible person either, but there's two scriptures that says, have I not told you that you were gods? It tells you. And even Jesus says, you'll do greater things than, than I will. But then instead of doing that, we worship a being and put our victimhood into it. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And yeah, it's a whole calamity, but <laugh>, it's a calamity.

Moby (00:58:20):

There's a lot of, there's a lot of religious calamity in there.

Gwenna (00:58:24):

<Laugh>. A lot, a lot.

Moby (00:58:34):

In terms of authors, teachers, leaders, who have you been inspired by?

Gwenna (00:58:39):

Hmm. I will say as far as like a book is concerned, that changed the trajectory of my thinking is a gentleman, I think is Neale Donald Walsch. And he created these series of books called Conversations with God. It helped me come out of a deep programming that even though I wasn't religious, I dibbled, I dibbled and dabbled a little bit. Everything I've tried to, you know, on my search. But I still had a very religious programming. And this like, okay, that's God, he's judging me. He's mad at me. Oh, you made this happen in my life. Oh, this happened. You did it. You must been mad at me. That's why that happened, happened. Like being in a constant state of victimhood and never taking responsibility for anything in my reality that I didn't wanna take responsibility for. I was living in Florida going through probably the first time I actually really dis experienced like real depression.

Gwenna (00:59:36):

And it's crazy 'cause I had been so judgmental of people who would say, oh, I'm depressed, or I'm going through depression. In my mind I'm like, oh, that's just a choice. Like, I, I didn't understand it like that. Like I had gone through like depressing stuff, but I had never stayed in it long because I had so many distractions this time. Like I'm in a city by myself, not knowing anybody, and I'm no friends. And job wasn't going well, and nothing was going right. And I started experiencing like real depression. I'm like, oh God, that's what this is. I'm like, holy. But I lived across the street from a library and a beach, like literally 30 steps. And I'm at the library, so I'm like, let me go in the library and read some books. And this book stuck out like a sore thumb.

Gwenna (01:00:18):

And in it, he's talking, he's channeling something, like he's channeling God and he's writing down all these conversations. And in it, God is having like, like he's hilarious. I'm like, I, I know God was funny. You know, like God is hilarious. Saying like really crazy stuff and all this acceptance. And I'm like, is this really you now? This is where I'm at at this point in my, in my journey. I'm like, is this is God funny? You know? And I'm like having all these thoughts. And so it helped me kind of transition out of that judgmental deity and helped me tap into something deeper within myself, which, you know, obviously is leading me to where I'm at now, which will lead me to a deeper place later. But that was one of the most profound books that changed my life. And another one was Saved by the Light by Betty j Edie.

Gwenna (01:01:07):

And she had a probably, they say, they say her near death experience, one of the most profound because of every detail she remembered. And that book was life changing for me as well, because of her experiences. There were things that I had experienced in my dreams talking to roses. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> or water being conscious and alive and seeing colors I had never seen on the planet before. And so she's talking about all this stuff and I'm just like, oh my God. And it ended up leading me to like, I ended up having this experience during this deep depression. And I remember I went to the store with someone and there was like an octopus, like a wasn't huge, but it was medium sized, like octopus behind the counter that was for sale. And I was just like, Ugh, that is like so gross. Even though I was eating squid at the time, but I was just, Ugh, that's so gross.

Gwenna (01:01:58):

And I said, octopuses are so ugly. Like, why would God make an octopus? Like, they just look so weird. They got all these tentacles and what is the purpose of an octopus? So that night I had probably the best dream I've ever had in my life. So in the dream, I feel like I'm like in Egypt or Rome or something, there's these pillars and I'm following this woman and she turns around and she's me. She has on like white and very angelic. And she's telepathically telling me just to trust her and follow her. So I follow her to this really big like open water type pool. And in it, there's this octopus that his head was like the size of like this room. Mm-Hmm.

Moby (01:02:38):

<Affirmative>.

Gwenna (01:02:38):

And he is looking at me like he knows me. And I'm like, I dunno, you. And, and I'm terrified and I'm looking at her like, girl, are you trying to kill me? And she's like, just trust it. He just wants to come near you. So I get in the water and the octopus opens up his tentacles and there's like, felt like it was millions of 'em. And when he touched me, I was filled with like ecstasy. And that's not even the right word. I don't have the language to describe what it felt like. I remember in the dream like levitating and seeing all these colors that I had never seen before. And it was like fire and fireworks and colors. And I felt it at my hair and in my cells. And it was the most intense love. It was pure love. But it was so powerful.

Gwenna (01:03:21):

I felt like if I would've stayed that dream another second, I would've died from ecstasy. It felt that good. And when I came out of the dream, I could still feel it. It wasn't like I woke up, it was like I was buzzing and tingles and chimes and bells. Like I could feel it. It was still on my body. And it felt so good. And I was like, God, if this is what it feels like this level of existence and give it to everybody so we can just all snap out of it. Like, just don't give it to me. And what ended up happening, like I started making a bargain. Like the next day I was like, okay, God, if you give me this feeling like once a day, I won't have sex. I won't talk to a man. Like I won't do anything <laugh>.

Gwenna (01:04:01):

Just give it to me like once a day. <Laugh>. And I was like literally like a drug addict. Like I was like begging for the experience again. And it caused me to go into like depression, which is what this woman experienced too. After her near death experience. She went into a depression because she wanted to go back and she wanted to feel all that love and that connection. And I wanted to go back and feel the love and the connection. And I was doing all these bar, I'm like, okay, once a month, like, okay, you won't give it to me once week. <Laugh> give it to me once a month and whatever you tell me to do, I would, but you know, that's not how life works. But my mind at the time just was mm-hmm. <Affirmative> trying to bargain with whatever <laugh>. So anyway, that book changed my life because I related to that experience, like going into depression because I wanted to feel that intense, powerful love again. So I know that was a long answer, <laugh>. That's great. Thank you.

Moby (01:04:51):

We've talked about veganism Lindsay, what's your favorite food? And Gwenna, I'm gonna ask you this question as well. Like, just, just like enjoy for a minute telling me about your favorite meal, your favorite food.

Gwenna (01:05:05):

Okay. I, I have a, I love food so much. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, I love it. I'm obsessed with it. But right now all I can think about is the food I ate last night, <laugh>, because it was so good. And I dreamed about the food I had.

Lindsay (01:05:17):

And it was lovely. I went to, there's this place near my house that has Mexican food that's vegan. And I went with our friend Asher Brown, who runs Pollution Studios. And we got every single taco that they had <laugh> and we cut them in half and we did a taco

Moby (01:05:35):

Question. Do you mean every taco they had? So like the,

Lindsay (01:05:38):

They only had six tacos

Moby (01:05:40):

Of six types types of tacos. Okay. I thought you were saying that they had like,

Lindsay (01:05:43):

Oh no, we ordered every taco they had in the entire restaurant. No, no, no. We ordered one. They

Moby (01:05:47):

Like, they backed the dump truck of tacos up to the restaurant and like, beep. Yeah.

Lindsay (01:05:52):

And I was just like, yes. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. No, we tried one of every of their vegan tacos and the taquitos and we cut them all in half and they were so delicious. <Laugh>, I don't even know what they were made out of. I think there was one jackfruit thing. There was one like impossible thing. There was one I don't even know, but oh my God, they were all so good.

Moby (01:06:15):

Okay.

Lindsay (01:06:15):

And that's all, that's the only food I can think about right now. 'cause I'm still in, in in taco jubilation.

Moby (01:06:22):

I'm enjoying your story. But it also makes me sad because it's making me hungry. <Laugh>. I'm like,

Gwenna (01:06:26):

I'm visualizing it.

Moby (01:06:27):

I realize that should have come with like a trigger warning. It's like, like now why, why, why are there no tacos here right now? <Laugh>. I know.

Gwenna (01:06:34):

I know.

Moby (01:06:36):

Okay.

Gwenna (01:06:37):

I would say my favorite food, there's

Lindsay (01:06:39):

Two,

Gwenna (01:06:39):

It's hard to describe. Well, one is mushrooms,

Lindsay (01:06:43):

Batterham, bacon, 'em,

Gwenna (01:06:45):

Saute them.

Lindsay (01:06:46):

If I

Gwenna (01:06:46):

Had to be like, stranded with like one food, it would be mushrooms.

Lindsay (01:06:50):

And

Gwenna (01:06:50):

Then grits.

Lindsay (01:06:51):

I can't eat 'em all

Gwenna (01:06:52):

The time 'cause they give me like heartburn and stuff. But every so

Lindsay (01:06:55):

Often,

Gwenna (01:06:55):

Some grits with some some butter and salt. I don't do the sweet, but yeah. Butter. When

Moby (01:07:01):

You say butter, like vegan butter. Yeah,

Lindsay (01:07:02):

Of course.

Gwenna (01:07:03):

Butter. Just,

Moby (01:07:04):

Just wanna make sure I don't, I don't, I don't want you to get canceled by all of a sudden the vegans are like,

Lindsay (01:07:09):

Shes butter.

Moby (01:07:10):

It's like vegan butter charge. Yeah. <Laugh>, like Miyoko's butter or something.

Lindsay (01:07:15):

Yes. Which is the best. That's the best.

Gwenna (01:07:17):

That is the best. Butter.

Lindsay (01:07:19):

Miyoko's butter gave me hope in vegan dairy products. Yeah. Because I, because vegan dairy products sometimes aren't

Gwenna (01:07:27):

Oh yeah.

Lindsay (01:07:27):

The best. But Miyoko's is so delicious. It's better than regular butter. It's better than dairy butter. Yes, it is. It has such a

Gwenna (01:07:33):

Nice

Lindsay (01:07:34):

Flavor. Oh my god, it's so good. Her cheeses have like this pungent, like,

Gwenna (01:07:37):

Like people that

Lindsay (01:07:38):

Eat dairy

Gwenna (01:07:39):

Cheese, they can enjoy because it has that pungent sourness

Lindsay (01:07:43):

To

Gwenna (01:07:43):

It that people really like. Ooh. Yeah.

Lindsay (01:07:45):

It's great. So

Gwenna (01:07:45):

Yeah. And I like to sometimes put cheese in my grits when I'm, when I'm having them.

Moby (01:07:50):

Okay. So, so mushrooms in all of their forms and grits.

Lindsay (01:07:54):

Yes. <laugh>. Okay. What about you? What's your favorite thing? Soups.

Moby (01:07:59):

Okay. He's

Lindsay (01:07:59):

A man of many soups. <Laugh>.

Moby (01:08:01):

My at present, my favorite thing is conci pasta. Like, it looks like little, little

Lindsay (01:08:08):

Shells, little

Moby (01:08:09):

Shelly scoop things. Yeah. with a saute Tempe. And then I, I add, there's this kimchi that I love. Mm.

Gwenna (01:08:18):

I love

Moby (01:08:18):

Kimchi where it's like dican, carrots, cabbage, cayenne,

Gwenna (01:08:23):

Ginger,

Moby (01:08:24):

Kimchi. And then I add that olive oil, a little bit of toasted sesame seed. Ooh. Black sesame seeds. Oh,

Gwenna (01:08:30):

You know how to do it right? Yeah.

Moby (01:08:31):

And that is that, I gotta say the, it might sound strange like pasta with Tempe kimchi and toasted black sesame seeds and olive oil. But it's, it's very good

Gwenna (01:08:40):

The flavors. 'cause You got that, that kimchi just Mm. Let's make mama water now just saying kimchi. I know. This conversation's making me so hungry. I have to change the subject because I'm getting too hungry. Okay.

Moby (01:08:49):

So done.

Gwenna (01:08:50):

Okay. So I just have one

Lindsay (01:08:51):

Final like, wrap up question mm-hmm. Ish. So you've started some communities and ways that people can get active. Would you mind just kind of telling people how they can get involved with all the work that you're doing? Whether it's if they live in Los Angeles or if they live anywhere?

Gwenna (01:09:09):

Yeah. So my, my closest project that's close to my heart right now is the vegans of LA Food Bank. And that was started last May. Actually we just hit our one year anniversary and we serve like, up to in the, the main food bank, like a little over 400 people in like two hours. Wow. And it's a beautiful thing because again, like I said, we believe that food is a human right. And I know when I first came to Los Angeles, I said, I went from abundance to poverty. I remember having $5 one week to eat

Lindsay (01:09:42):

With.

Gwenna (01:09:43):

And that was the scariest feeling I've ever had. 'cause I felt like I was just gonna be pushed off the edge of the planet because it felt like no hope. You know, if you can't provide your basic needs, it does diminish how you kind of manifest your reality in a sense. Yeah. It, it really does. So if you can't feed yourself, it's like, how am I going to get this job? How am I gonna really feel empowered if I can't even cover my own basic needs? And so the food bank is there for that reason to help people cover their basic needs. Because again, I don't believe that you should have to earn the privilege of eating healthy food. There should be free food access all over the world. Like I said, the planet already comes with it, so we should be able to provide that for one another. So that is every third Thursday of the month that we have the food bank from eight to 10. So if people wanna get involved, they can reach out to me at vegans of Los Angeles underscore or check out vegans of la.com. Donate, or you can come and volunteer. We always need people to come and volunteer and help. You

Moby (01:10:47):

Said eight to 10 in the morning or eight

Gwenna (01:10:48):

To 10 in the morning. Okay. Yes. Eight to 10 in the morning. And in those two hours, like I said, we get over 400 people in that time. And like I said, it's really amazing because there's so much gratitude. I don't know if all food banks are like this, but I know the one that we, we do, it's absolutely amazing. It's just bu to see. Good morning. Thank you. God bless you. God bless you. Thank you so much. Like the gratitude, because we try to make sure there's a nice amount of abundance. We have produce we get donations from sometimes G T F O is vegan Omni Foods donates. We've gotten stuff from just egg Khalifa Chobani. And then we have like grains and nuts and walnuts and almonds and rice and beans. And so by the time a person gets to the end of the line, they're pretty loaded up. Mm-Hmm.

Moby (01:11:37):

<Affirmative>.

Gwenna (01:11:38):

And I get high off of it because it's like, it helps heal the trauma in me from when I was going through my food insecurity. So to see people come and they're like, can't wait to get something and they leave with all this stuff, I'm like, oh, you're going to eat good for the next couple of weeks. So it, it, it, I get a, like I said, I get a high off of it. Did I answer your question, <laugh>? Yeah. So,

Lindsay (01:11:58):

And what your, did you say what your socials are?

Gwenna (01:12:00):

Yeah. So VegansofLosAngeles for the food bank underscore @vegansoflosangeles_, if you wanna just hang out with me on my personal @Gwenna1, but yeah, those are my socials.

Lindsay (01:12:12):

Amazing. Okay. That sounds so fun. That's

Gwenna (01:12:15):

<Crosstalk>. It is fun. We have a good time. It's very healing. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>,

Moby (01:12:18):

Like

Gwenna (01:12:18):

If you need to like a boost, you're feeling a little bit down. And I'm not saying this because it's like you're going there and you're like, oh, I'm more, I'm, I'm in a better position than them. It's not like that. It feels good

Lindsay (01:12:30):

To be of service, to give of It's very healing, to be of service.

Gwenna (01:12:34):

Yes. It feels good. You're not going there feeling sorry for anybody. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, we don't need that energy. You're not going there thinking, oh, these poor people. That's not it. The, the richness is the gratitude and the appreciation and the hope. So yeah. If you need a little boost in your own energy, come for that reason because you'll, you'll leave feeling really good.

Lindsay (01:12:54):

Yeah. That's beautiful.

Moby (01:12:56):

Well, one, thank you for being here. Thank you. Two, thank you for being such a remarkable voice for animals and for humans and for the divine. Like we love your perspective, your openness about emotion and spirituality, your compassion. Honestly, just thank you so much for being you and for doing everything Yeah. That you do. Your

Lindsay (01:13:22):

Fearlessness is incredibly meaningful. Thank you.

Gwenna (01:13:26):

And thanks for having me. I really, I was looking forward to this, so thank you so much.

Moby (01:13:42):

Well, that was wonderful.

Lindsay (01:13:44):

I mean, I'm just, I wanna just cry and also giggle.

Moby (01:13:47):

One of the things I love about Gwenna's approach to animal rights and veganism and activism is the spiritual component. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> the sort of like the well-rounded spiritual component of, of course she's very smart and it's academic and it's informed by evidence, but it also just feels emotional. And I'm trying to say this in a way that doesn't sound critical of other people, but it just seems like if you have a spiritual life, spirituality, no matter what the type of spirituality should involve compassion for everyone and everything. Yeah.

Lindsay (01:14:24):

And

Moby (01:14:25):

I've DJ'ed and gone to yoga retreats and one thing that I found very disturbing is sometimes at the yoga retreat, there'll be meditation. And the meditation will involve everyone chanting, may all beings be free from suffering. Mm-Hmm.

Lindsay (01:14:39):

<Affirmative>, and

Moby (01:14:39):

Then a lot of those people go and eat meat. Yeah.

Lindsay (01:14:41):

And

Moby (01:14:41):

I'm really like, I, I don't, it's so hard to not be judgmental, but how can you, at 5:00 PM not you, but how can someone at 5:00 PM chant may all beings be free from suffering and then at 5:30 PM go eat the dead bodies of beings who have suffered. Like, it's just so I can't wrap my head around that, just that, that glaring, dichotomous inconsistency.

Lindsay (01:15:05):

Yeah. Same. And I also have this, something I really love about Gwenna is how she lets her emotions be so present in her activism. I think a lot of people think that for their activism to be meaningful, they have to show bottom lines. They have to convince people that it just makes the most logical sense that it's best for the animals or best for the environment, best for human beings. But she is so connected to the emotional side of it, which is just being really, really sad.

Moby (01:15:34):

Yeah.

Lindsay (01:15:35):

That the animals suffer the way that they do. And I think that I sometimes can't go into that because it always is kind of like a running theme in animal rights is just like the horrific tragedy and like the large scale and possibly large tragedy of how many animals are killed every single day for food. That I honestly can't let myself get emotional about it all the time. Yeah. But I think she's reminded me that part of being an activist, no matter what version of activism you are engaging in, but especially in animal activism, connecting to the emotional side of it can not only be a beautiful release, but also be the thing that keeps you going when you start to lose an energy or loose steam or, or loose focus.

Moby (01:16:22):

I completely agree. And there's, there's an authenticity there. Mm-Hmm.

Lindsay (01:16:25):

<Affirmative>, you

Moby (01:16:26):

Know, I'm not saying that the rest of us are disingenuous, but I almost feel like the vulnerability of sadness, the vulnerability of mourning for some people, me especially, it's harder to connect with that in public. It's easier to connect with cynicism or data or mm-hmm. <Affirmative> anger. But that the gentle vulnerability of letting yourself grieve openly, I find to be very primal and beautiful and inspiring. Mm-Hmm.

Lindsay (01:16:54):

<Affirmative>. And

Moby (01:16:54):

Also just our quick recap at the end, little reminder, <laugh>, I'll be doing my first DJ event in a very long time with the money going to Gwenna and her organization.

Lindsay (01:17:06):

Yes. And

Moby (01:17:07):

I'm just gonna give a quick little recap of that. October 29th, Raul Campos I DJing at Gold Diggers at 2:00 PM on a Sunday afternoon in

Lindsay (01:17:15):

Los Angeles.

Moby (01:17:16):

$5 to get in with all the money going to Gwynne's Food Bank and she'll be there speaking. Do you wanna say goodbye? And, and thank you.

Lindsay (01:17:25):

I do, I wanna say, I wanna say Gwynne's information will be in the show notes of this podcast that you're listening to. So check that out. She's at VegansOfLA.com. That's where a bunch of information about the food bank will be. And then I wanna thank Jonathan Nesvadba for editing this podcast like a, like a masterful angel. And I also wanna thank human content for putting this podcast out into the world and into your ears.

Moby (01:17:54):

And we'll see you on October 29th and we'll talk to you hopefully before then as well.

Lindsay (01:17:59):

Yeah.