Moby (00:00:06):

Well, hi, and welcome to another episode of Moby Pod. I am Moby and I'm here with Lindsay. Hi, Lindsay.

Lindsay (00:00:15):

Hi, I'm Lindsay, and this is also Bagel here.

Moby (00:00:17):

So Bagel, is bagel gonna say? Hello?

Bagel (00:00:21):

Hi, Moby. <laugh> <laugh>.

Moby (00:00:23):

Hi, bagel <laugh>. So, today is a special episode because it's my 15 year sober anniversary. And in today's episode we cover a, a ridiculous amount of ground about sobriety, spirituality, the human condition, existentialism, vulnerability.

Lindsay (00:00:45):

We're gonna hear a lot from Moby about his journey in addiction into sobriety and the effects that it's had on his life and his spiritual self. We're gonna talk a lot about the spiritual aspects of sobriety, of sobriety from substances, but also emotional sobriety. We're gonna talk about what a higher power means to us, and we're going to talk about chipmunks dressed up like Elvis in a sequin suit. So we're, there's not a lot, we're not covering,

Moby (00:01:17):

It seemed like that last part, the chipmunks, disco dancing chipmunks in Elvis costumes. If you're confused by that, hopefully by the end of the episode it will make perfect sense to you what, what we're talking about. And it won't, it'll might still seem very weird, but hopefully less confusing.

Lindsay (00:01:35):

You may even be inspired by it at the end. And I am <laugh>,

Moby (00:01:40):

I am going to play my addiction song, extreme Ways that was written as I was beginning to bottom out as an addict. So we're gonna sit here and I'll play the acoustic version of it, which hopefully won't make everyone too uncomfortable, most likely, given the fact that everything makes me uncomfortable, I'll be made most uncomfortable by it.

Lindsay (00:02:01):

But ideally, by the time we get to the song, you will have a new sense of what it means to sit with your uncomfortable feelings and you will have a deep, uh, emotional, spiritual experience with it.

Moby (00:02:14):

Okay, so let's get started. Oh, and we are gonna be talking about some really intense things during this episode of Moby Pod. So if you are triggered by descriptions and stories of drug use and addiction, and even suicidal ideation, you might wanna think twice before listening to this episode because we're going to touch on all of those things.

Lindsay (00:02:46):

Moby, I hear you have a very special anniversary slash birthday of sorts coming up.

Moby (00:02:53):

Yes. In fact, it's not even coming up. It is today, which is today have 15 years of sobriety.

Lindsay (00:03:03):

Wow. We

Moby (00:03:04):

15 years. That's

Lindsay (00:03:06):

So, that's so many years.

Moby (00:03:07):

I remember when I first got sober, for real, I met my first sponsor and he had I think 13 months. And I thought he was an old timer. I was like, he's been sober for 13 months. Like, that's how, how in the world could anyone stay sober that long? Mm-hmm. I would hear about people with five years sober and I was like, oh my God. Like, they're like, like wizard legends. When

Lindsay (00:03:28):

You first got sober, did you think that your sobriety would be something short term?

Moby (00:03:34):

Well, okay, I've gotten sober many times. I see. This is just hopefully the last time <laugh> and the, the real time. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> like the other times were more consequence driven. This was actually like the recognition that I was a full-blown alcoholic and this was the only alternative left to me, apart from, well, I guess the other alternative would've been staying out there and drinking and dying an early death and going to jail.

Lindsay (00:04:02):

I'm really glad that didn't happen and that you did this. You don't,

Moby (00:04:05):

As am I. So yeah. When I got sober for real, I, I didn't have a clue as to what to expect. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Like, I just, I really had no idea. The only thing I will say is I thought that sobriety was going to be markedly different than it actually ended up being.

Lindsay (00:04:20):

You thought it was gonna be hard and you were going to be like biting the belt the entire time,

Moby (00:04:24):

You know? Yes. But also qualitatively. Hmm.

Lindsay (00:04:27):

So

Moby (00:04:28):

Should I, what do you think? Should I, should I tell you my journey?

Lindsay (00:04:32):

Well, yeah. So in my limited experience in 12 step programs, I know that sharing your experience, strength and hope is a big deal. And meetings often start out that way. So maybe you can give us a, a 15 minute share. That's

Moby (00:04:47):

Interesting. Um, I've never done a share for one person and then thousands and thousands of people virtually. Uh, it

Lindsay (00:04:53):

Seems like a small meeting, but it's actually probably your biggest, um, that's true. So does that sound fun to you or Yeah. At least sound like something you're interested

Moby (00:05:01):

In doing. It, it sounds, I mean, I think selfishly whenever I share at meetings, when I tell my story, I, I hope to be of service to other people, <laugh>. But I also, there's something about telling your story that just gives you insights into your story and gives you insights into who you are. So selfishly I kind of would like to tell my story again, hoping to be of service, but hoping that I might learn something as well. Yeah.

Lindsay (00:05:27):

And I have to say, I love listening to people's shares because you get to see people showing that change is possible and you, when you see it over and over again, it's like the cumulative effect of like, oh my god, change is a thing. Um, so yeah. Do you, so in these meetings often they will have what they call a spiritual timekeeper, where, I'll keep time for you. Do you want me to do that or do you wanna just let it hang a little loose?

Moby (00:05:51):

Yeah, let, let's be formal and you can sort of be the spiritual timekeeper. Also, one thing I wanted to mention is there's a recurring issue about anonymity, which is, as we know, half of Alcoholics Anonymous is the word anonymous. Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (00:06:04):

<affirmative>.

Moby (00:06:05):

And there's this recurring question about what does anonymity mean? Because obviously what we're doing right now, I'm not being anonymous, you know, like I'm the opposite of anonymous. Like me, Moby, I'm sharing publicly about being an alcoholic,

Lindsay (00:06:17):

Alcoholic's, public

Moby (00:06:19):

<laugh>. And I know some people take issue with that. And my perspective is that other people historically who've shared publicly about their addiction, I've really been grateful for that.

Lindsay (00:06:35):

Hmm. You

Moby (00:06:35):

Know, like Anthony Hopkins has shared very publicly and has, has told his story in, in a public capacity in a way that I loved hearing. So there are lots of examples like that where people have shared their story publicly and I'm grateful for it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I personally in my life, don't feel the need to be anonymous. I don't criticize the concept of anonymity. And if someone else wants to be anonymous, I certainly would respect that. Like, I would never, ever in a million years try and out someone for being an addict if they weren't comfortable sharing that. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

Lindsay (00:07:08):

So

Moby (00:07:08):

For anyone listening, if you're mad that I'm sharing because it's not anonymous, well that's your issue and not mine. 'cause the central tenet of 12 step programs is to thine own self be true. So if someone gets mad at you for what you're doing, like that's their business. It's not mine.

Lindsay (00:07:23):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

Moby (00:07:23):

But I will say I respect the tradition of anonymity. I just don't know that it applies to me in this case.

Lindsay (00:07:30):

And I will say for some people, knowing that they're gonna go into a room and be able to share things that they may not want anyone else to hear. Um, knowing that they will be anonymous and that whatever they share will be kept to that room and never spoken of again, I think is where a lot of healing happens. Where people feel like they can finally talk about their experience and try to make changes in their lives. So,

Moby (00:07:52):

Oh yeah. Anonymity in meetings. What I say in a closed meeting is anonymous. Right.

Lindsay (00:07:58):

What

Moby (00:07:59):

Anyone says in a closed meeting is anonymous, like I respect, that's to me in Violet. But if someone wants to share an a non-anonymous way, I believe personally it's my right to do so.

Lindsay (00:08:11):

Your story is your story. Yeah. And what you choose to do with it is entirely up to you. We are talking about a program that does require anonymity, but you are only talking about this program in as much as it has supported you on the journey that you're talking about today.

Moby (00:08:27):

And also, I would like to say anyone listening is probably like scratching their head. Like, why are these two going on so long? Okay. Wow.

Lindsay (00:08:36):

<laugh> I,

Moby (00:08:37):

By the way, I think we both had like separately bad night sleep. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> me because I just am prone to insomnia. And can you tell everyone, before I tell my story of experience, shame and hope <laugh>, um, why you had a bad night's sleep?

Lindsay (00:08:53):

I, yes, I had a bad, well, first of all, I had a bad night's sleep because I was accidentally exposed to some horses yesterday. And so I was having terrible allergic reactions all night. But also bagel woke me up at 3:00 AM because she had to go outside and poop, which was really nice and respectful that she didn't wanna do it inside. And she woke me up that I took her outside and when we came back in, she got poop all over my bed. <laugh>,

Moby (00:09:16):

Poor bagel, poor Lindsay. So, so bagel accidentally got poop on her bed. 'cause she does have long fur that sometimes the poop attaches itself to <laugh>. And so then you had to like make your bed at three o'clock in the morning? I did. Okay. Well, I'm sorry. So we're, so we're both a little sleepy, which makes me invent words like longly, <laugh>. Um, okay. So here goes, first off, I'm Moby, I'm an alcoholic.

Lindsay (00:09:40):

Hi Moby.

Moby (00:09:41):

Thanks. And I imagine the alcoholics listening all just involuntarily said, hi, Moby <laugh>. So my, my story, I think as weird as this might sound, it starts before I was born. 'cause I believe there is definitely a hereditary component to addiction. You know, in my family, half my family are wasps. By wasps I mean white Anglo-Saxon Protestant. The other half are Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews. The wasps in my family all have problems with drinking. The Jewish people in my family do not.

Lindsay (00:10:15):

Mm-hmm. Like,

Moby (00:10:16):

It's just, so there's such a hereditary link there. So my father was an alcoholic. My grandfather was probably an alcoholic. The other people on my mom's side of the family, lots of addiction, lots of alcoholism. And then I also had prenatal trauma, you know, trauma before I was born. 'cause my mom was a heavy cigarette smoker. Um, while she was pregnant with me, she and my dad were fighting constantly. So clearly I was exposed to a lot of cortisol in the womb. And then my mom was very violently attacked in Riverside Park in New York when she was pregnant with me. And she was, she was wa she was like seven months pregnant with me. And she was walking in Riverside Park and a man attacked her and tried to stab me, tried to kill me. It sounds like the beginning of something like Damien, the Omen type story, like <laugh>.

Moby (00:11:10):

So she said a man ran up to her with a long knife and started attacking her, and specifically was trying to stab her womb. Whoa. And she said those stories of like people having superhuman strength, like he was a lot bigger than her. He was a lot stronger than her. And she fought him off. Like, she told me this story where she, as he was aggressively trying to stab me in the womb, she grabbed his arm and they stood for what she said was like a minute where she just like, he wouldn't let go and she wouldn't let go. And they just stared at each other in the eye. And apparently he was saying like, you know, like, I have, you know, like, I have to kill your baby. And eventually he dropped the knife and ran away. So obviously that was very traumatic for her.

Moby (00:11:55):

But just imagine how much cortisol, an adrenaline was going through her system that then went to me. So I was born anxious with a hereditary predisposition towards addiction. Then the first couple years of my life, my father killed himself drunk. My mother surrounded herself with drug addicts and alcoholics. Like, I was just exposed to constant addiction, you know, and it was different, the different types of addiction. Like there were my grand, my grandfather who worked on Wall Street, his level of addiction was golf and gin and tonics. So it was very respectable addiction. But when he and his friends met up, they would have, they would get blind drunk. But it was wealthy people getting blind, drunk on gin and tonics. Mm.

Speaker 3 (00:12:39):

It

Moby (00:12:39):

Somehow seemed respectful,

Speaker 3 (00:12:41):

Civilized.

Moby (00:12:43):

I don't remember being around a, I don't think I met a sober adult until I was maybe 19 years old. You know, every time I met my mom's friends, they were drunk, high addicted, hungover, every, you know, my, my grandparents, my aunts and uncles, everybody was always high or drunk on something. So this took my already anxious self and made me even more scared. Uh, luckily I had animals and then later books and music like those, that was my refuge. Like animals, books, music and nature to an extent. But adults were terrifying. Culture was terrifying. Everything was terrifying. And so I just carried this not of worry and anxiety with me so much. So I wasn't even aware of it. It's just like, it was just who I was. And then when I was, I think 10 years old, I was at a New Year's Eve party and my friend Andy, who became a heroin addict a few years later, 'cause that's what happened in Affluent Suburbs, his mom gave us champagne at a New Year's Eve party. And I had three glasses of champagne. And for the first time in my life, I experienced happiness and calm. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I'd never really experienced that neurochemical feeling of wellbeing. And I remember just so distinctly being in his bunk bed, like he was in the upper bunk bed, or I was in, I was in one of the bunk beds with Battlestar Galactica sheets. And I remember thinking to myself, I never want to not feel this way at age 10. And what followed from that was three years of weird alcohol and drug abuse

Speaker 3 (00:14:26):

From

Moby (00:14:26):

Age 10 to 13 or 14, where, um, my friend Dave and I would steal drugs from his sister, who was very mentally ill. Uh, I would steal drugs from my mom and her boyfriends. And stealing, stealing alcohol was the easy one. 'cause every family had a liquor cabinet. And you just go in the liquor cabinet. And my trick at age 11 and 12 was to go to the back of the back of the liquor cabinet, the stuff they didn't want that had dust on it. And you just took that. And it was usually the garbage stuff like Crème de Menthe and 151 Rum. Like the stuff that someone would buy once for a cocktail and then put in the back of the liquor cabinet would be dusty. You'd take half the bottle, put water back in and end up with what we called rocket fuel, which was like a mix of all the alcohols.

Moby (00:15:12):

It was disgusting, but it worked. And you would get drunk very, very quickly combined with the pills we were stealing from our parents and the, the marijuana and hash I was stealing from my mom and her boyfriend. So by age 13, I was a mess. And then my, this is my only claim to sobriety fame is on my, my first sobriety date. I was 14 years old. I had had a night out with my friend Dave. And he got so drunk and so high that he passed out. And we had to call the EMTs to intubate him. So I remember, so I can see it so clearly even now, like in the hallway, in the downstairs of his house with the EMTs over h hovering over him, intubating him at two or three in the morning. And I was blind, drunk and high. And his parents were like terrified and screaming.

Moby (00:16:05):

'cause they thought their 12, 13 year old son's gonna die. And I remember I went home, his, his dad drove me home and my mom was like, what happened? And I just started crying and I told her everything. And that was my first sobriety date. That didn't last very long because then I guess I was 15 or 16, started drinking again. I didn't do that many drugs. It was mainly just alcohol. I loved alcohol, you know, drugs were great, but alcohol was my drug of choice. So I spent, you know, let's say 15 until about, uh, 25 or 26 just drinking excessively. Then I started working, I started DJing in a bar, which meant free alcohol. And I was young and I could, you could drink like a crazy person. You know, you'd go out and have, you know, 10 drinks, 12 drinks, 14 drinks, be blind drunk and DJing and having sex with strangers in bathrooms and throwing up on people and getting punched in the face and not remembering it.

Moby (00:17:08):

Like just the usual chaos that came along with teenage into young adult addiction. Then fast forward to about 26, I got sober without a program because I realized I had this moment of clarity. I was like, oh, every fight I've been in, I've been drunk. Every terrible thing I've seen. I was drunk and other people are drunk. My dad killed himself drunk. I was like, wow, alcohol is bad. And somehow I got sober and stayed sober for about seven years, which is weird. I didn't have a program. I just decided to get sober. Stayed sober for seven years. I was also a very uptight Christian at that point. So that lasted until 1995. And then 1995, I was 30 years old and I started drinking again. And I remember the first drink I had in San Francisco in 1995. It was like being returned to heaven slash the womb.

Moby (00:18:03):

Like all of a sudden after seven or eight years of sobriety, I was a drunk again. And it was great. And I embraced it with a vengeance. And I just drank. And I, I lived my life consisted of drinking and working. I would go out and I would drink and I would work and that's it. And I would just drink and work, work on music and drink. And I went out at, at the only time I wouldn't go out was when I was too hungover to go out. Then 1999 rolls around and I discover ecstasy, which is weird 'cause everyone else has been doing it for a very long time. And boy, oh boy, I discovered ecstasy and fell in love with it. The way everyone falls in love with ecstasy and combining ecstasy with alcohol. I felt like I'd find, I had figured it out, like this was the key to life and happiness. Um, I remember at one point having an internal theological debate with God. And I just thought to myself, God, if you loved us, why? Why don't we always just feel this way? We feel when we're on ecstasy and drinking <laugh>. You know, like, like why, why is there ever sadness? If, you know, shouldn't a benign God just make us feel deliriously happy 24 hours a day, we might not get much done and we're, our species probably wouldn't survive, but at least we'd be happy. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 4 (00:19:23):

<affirmative>.

Moby (00:19:23):

So this was 1999 into 2000 drinking, taking tons of ecstasy. And I was also becoming very famous and touring constantly. Going to red carpet events, going to very fancy things, getting drunk with movie stars and rock stars and politicians and UN members, et cetera. Then we fast forward a little bit to 2003 and I discovered cocaine. I'd always avoided cocaine. And I, like many people, fell in love with cocaine. So the combination of alcohol and cocaine, I embraced it. It, it again, it, it was like punishing myself in the most beautiful way. And my drinking just started getting darker and worse. Where I was drinking 15 drinks a night, 20 drinks a night, 25 drinks a night. I know that seems like a lot, but at the time it wasn't. I didn't black out that much. I was more just like a very social drinker.

Moby (00:20:24):

Doing a lot of cocaine, buying cocaine in strange places. Then I started dabbling with opiates as well. And then became what is colloquially in AA known as a garbage head, meaning I would do anything that was put in front of me. If there was a designer drug, I would take that combined with alcohol, combined with cocaine, combined with G H B, combined with P C P combined. Like whatever was put in front of me, I would do, um, my friend, I don't wanna name her name, but a friend. And I found a bag of drugs behind a toilet in a dive bar on a rainy Sunday night in the lower East Side. We didn't know what the drugs were, but we made a deal with ourselves. We're gonna do all of them. We didn't know if it was fentanyl. We didn't know if it was heroin.

Moby (00:21:06):

We didn't know if it was cocaine. Turned out it was just very bad cocaine. But we were like, you know what, if we die, what a way to go out. We're gonna do this bag of drugs that we found behind the crappiest toilet, you can imagine in a dive bar. So it got very dark and darker and darker. And I started having suicidal fantasies. I started having suicide attempts, but it never dawned on me to quit drinking. And I was like, well, maybe I could drink less. So I started drinking wine 'cause I never liked wine. Um, I started trying to smoke marijuana again 'cause I didn't like smoking marijuana. So my approach to addiction was, well, if I drink and do drugs that I don't enjoy that way at least I can keep drinking and doing drugs kept going. The the, the depression got worse, the anxiety got worse, the suicidal thoughts got worse.

Moby (00:21:49):

When I heard about other people dying, I envied them. Like Heath Ledger lived around the corner from me. And when he died I was jealous. And I was like, wow, what did, like, I was like, what more do I have to do? Like how, how can I die? You know? I would be so disappointed every morning I woke up that I wasn't dead. To be fair, I was waking up at five in the afternoon, but I would get into the shower at five in the afternoon, hung over and I would stand there and I would just say the word over and over again. Disappointed that I hadn't died in my sleep. 'cause at this point, like an average night, and I know this sounds crazy, was 20 drinks, two or $300 worth of cocaine, whatever other drugs were paid for or handed to me the weird ones too.

Moby (00:22:31):

Like Angel, Dustin, g h b, bad ones. And then to sleep at nine in the morning, I would gobble Xanax and Vicodin. And I kept thinking like, what, what am I doing wrong? Not what am I doing wrong and poisoning myself, but what am I doing wrong that I'm still alive? 'cause all I wanted was to die. I kept every morning so disappointed, like, why am I still alive? Like people around me were dying left and right. And I was like, what? Like I'm a little scrawny guy. How come I'm still alive? Okay. So I tried to get sober by the way, because this is our podcast. We might, are you gonna let me go a little long?

Lindsay (00:23:08):

I'll allow it.

Moby (00:23:09):

Okay. Thank you. As

Lindsay (00:23:09):

It is your podcast.

Moby (00:23:11):

No, I'll, I'll try and truncate it and keep it relatively brief. No,

Lindsay (00:23:14):

This is riveting.

Moby (00:23:15):

You sure?

Lindsay (00:23:16):

Yeah. We're at the, the winter of the soul right now. Okay. Which

Moby (00:23:19):

Is,

Lindsay (00:23:20):

This is good part. This is end of second act.

Moby (00:23:22):

Yeah. So we're <laugh> <laugh>. So we're in the, the darkest night of the soul. Yeah, yeah.

Lindsay (00:23:27):

You know,

Moby (00:23:27):

This is like the year before I got sober. I think somewhere deep in my brain, my brain knew that I was gonna either get sober or die. And so it went out with a vengeance. I mean it, the, the drinking got worse. The drug taking got worse, the degeneracy got worse, the despair got worse, the depression, the anxiety, everything got so bad. Friends started looking at me with genuine concern. People started staging quasi interventions with me. People I worked with started quitting 'cause they just couldn't deal with it anymore. And then finally after years and years of just darkness, it just kept getting darker. October, 2008, I walked into an AA meeting and I raised my hand and I said, I'm ob and I'm an alcoholic. And I just sat there crying 'cause I knew I was done. And it wasn't even any big dramatic ending. Like I hadn't had like the mother of all nights, I'd had just had like a typical stupid night out, which for me involved 20 drinks and $300 worth of cocaine and whatever drugs were thrown in my face. But I got to that point that Aerosmith described as being sick of ti sick and tired of being sick and tired. Mm-hmm.

Moby (00:24:42):

And I just couldn't see any other way out. So I walked into this meeting, which turns out it was like one of the original AA meetings in New York that had been going on for decades and decades and decades. And it was a very weird meeting 'cause it took place. The one I went to took place in the yoga studio in a Hindu temple. But it was pop, it was in the East Village. So it was populated by unhoused people, hardcore drug addicts, CEOs, rock stars, movie stars, but also like the, the most diverse group of people. Like I've never been in a more diverse place than this meeting. You know, like you'd be sitting next to like a senator would be sitting next to you on one side and an unhoused person sitting next to you on the other side, a movie star sitting in front of you and literally a sideshow freak from Coney Island sitting behind you.

Moby (00:25:35):

And everybody supported everybody. And it was so remarkable. And I immediately started doing step work, you know, 'cause finally I could do the first step, which is the only one you have to do, right? Which is, you know, admitted I was an alcoholic and I was powerless over my addiction. And finally I looked at all the evidence and I was like, oh boy, finally I can say I'm an alcoholic and I'm powerless. Which then led to the second step. Um, the, the second step is sort of like turning things over. And the third step, you know, made the decision to turn our life and our will over to the care of God as we understood God. Like we could talk about this for years. For me, this is the most interesting step 'cause you're turning your life and your will over to the care of God as you understood God.

Moby (00:26:20):

And I wrestled with this for a long time 'cause I was like, I don't understand God. And I realized the God of my understanding is a God that I cannot possibly understand. I don't know who God is. I don't know what God is. And a universe that's 15 billion years old, how could you know God? But I have this humbly held naive belief that we can approach whoever, whatever God is, that we can potentially have a relationship with God even if we don't understand or know what God is. And that God weirdly whatever, again, I don't know who or what God is, but that God is interested in us and wants to help somehow. So that was the way I did the third step. And then four, five and six and seven and eight into nine. I know people listening are like, what are, what are these numbers you're talking about?

Moby (00:27:07):

I'm trying to rush things along a little bit. But basically we'll call those the, the self-awareness and the recognition of resentments and harms steps. And I had held on to all these shameful secrets, you know, fears like secrets about being abused when I was a child. Just shameful stuff that I was so ashamed of. And I went through them all with my sponsor and I realized, oh, he had the same stuff. And I started talking to other people and realized all the stuff I was ashamed of was common to all of us. Why are we ashamed of these vulnerabilities? You know, we should be ashamed of the bad things we do sometimes, but more often than not, shame is around vulnerability and supposed weakness. And the weirdness of that struck me. But also the wonderful solidarity that comes when you realize things that you're ashamed of are shared by everyone.

Moby (00:28:05):

And that hiding them is what causes terrible stuff. You know, pretending that you're not vulnerable, pretending that you don't have these shortcomings. Like that's the problem. At least it was for me. So then I got to the ninth step, which is when you make amends to people for the wrongs that you've done to them, which I had quite a lot of those to do. And it, it's so powerful. Words can't describe how powerful it is when you get to that point where you're doing it. Like, it's like if God is a chiropractor, that's when you go to God and you get readjusted. Like all of a sudden everything changes. But then we get to 10, 11 and 12 of the steps. 12 being the 12th step. And those are, we'll call, we'll call 'em like the maintenance steps. Like the idea is like you're sober now.

Moby (00:28:52):

You have a better sense of self, you have a better sense of the world around you. So 10, 11, 12 is sort of like maintenance through Yeah. Being of service and trying to help other people. And 10th step is very much about keeping track of the way in which these issues might recur. You know, like with anything like with illness, there's always the fear that it's gonna come back. There's gonna be a relapse. So now I've had 15 years of being a recovering alcoholic in a 12 step program. And the last thing I'll say, 12 steps work for me. They work for a lot of people. It doesn't mean it works for everyone. You know, I have some friends who've been sober for decades who hate 12 step programs who, you know, never would go to a 12 step meeting and they're sober, they're fine. So if the 12 steps work for you, by all means great.

Moby (00:29:46):

That's a wonderful thing. And I, I think that there's so much benefit that can be gained there. But if you think you have a problem with addiction and you don't want to go to 12 step meetings, just figure out another way to do it. There are lots of ways to address and achieve sobriety. Uh, the last thing I'll say last things. One of the very important ones is, as I mentioned earlier in the 12 step ethos, is to thine own self be true. Which means what other people's opinions, you can't disregard them, but you also don't have to live by them. You know, if someone in a 12 step meeting tells you to do something, you can ignore them. You know, if you have a sponsor who tells you to do something you think is wrong, you don't have to do it. Like, there's no commands, there's no, there are no bosses, there are no authorities there. 12 step programs. It's a collection of dysfunctional equals anyone who pretends otherwise hasn't figured it out yet. 'cause there are lots of people in 12 step programs who are real quick to judge and tell you what you should do. Ignore 'em. If you don't like what they say, move on. Just keep moving forward. And to th own self be true.

Lindsay (00:31:06):

That was very forthcoming. I think a lot of people would self edit around things that they did that they are not necessarily proud of. I mean, I think that's one of the wonders of the program. Being able to admit those things is such a, such a powerful thing. And be able to like, talk about them and have ownership around them and have them be something that you did but you just don't do anymore. So

Moby (00:31:30):

Hearing you talk just now, it reminded me, one of the things I'm grateful for, first of all, I'm grateful that I'm an alcoholic. I'm grateful that I'm an addict because it's changed my way of thinking. It's given me humility that I didn't have before. It's given me perspective that I didn't have before. Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (00:31:47):

<affirmative>.

Moby (00:31:47):

I mean there is, the sort of Ulysses aspect of it is like, you can't get to a good place unless you have a really arduous journey. You know, Lord of the Rings would be a really boring book if like the Hobbits had stayed in Hobbiton,

Lindsay (00:32:01):

You know? Yeah.

Moby (00:32:01):

Like, you have to go out and you have to be

Lindsay (00:32:03):

Hobbiton.

Moby (00:32:04):

Isn't that where they live? The Shire?

Lindsay (00:32:05):

The Shire, the

Moby (00:32:06):

Shire. Hobbiton I believe is their town. The Shire would be their area.

Lindsay (00:32:09):

Oh, okay. I think I hadn't heard habit and it made me laugh really

Moby (00:32:12):

Hard. I could be just inventing that <laugh>. Um, but yeah, it's that like no one wants to go through adversity. Adversity sucks. But it's, it's one of the only great teachers we have. So like going through that terrible journey, the dark night as you call it, like the winter of the soul, it was awful filled with so much sadness and despair, but necessary. You know, otherwise you end up in a very, like, you end up consumed by bitterness. You end up consumed by sickness. You end up consumed by all these things. And like, I'm just, I couldn't have figured this out on my own. So here's one thing I wanted to mention is, okay, so I'm, I'm going all over the, I'm taking every off ramp, uh, <laugh> one thing that I'm grateful for, that I have an addiction that requires abstinence, meaning I can't drink. There's some addictions like Narcotics Anonymous, et cetera.

Lindsay (00:33:09):

Overeaters, well

Moby (00:33:10):

Overeaters are

Lindsay (00:33:11):

A different one under earners.

Moby (00:33:12):

So, so those are the maintenance addictions. I don't know how people handle those. Like with, with alcohol, it's like, okay, black and white, I cannot drink mm-hmm. <affirmative> drugs. I cannot do drugs. Like it's this binary thing. I, I've tried doing moderation. I can't do it. I have to have a complete abstinate approach to alcohol and drugs. The people like Overeaters Anonymous, you can't have an abstine approach towards food. Mm-hmm. You have to, you have to learn how to eat with sanity. People who spend people who like

Lindsay (00:33:44):

Gambling. Well, I guess gambling is an abstinence thing.

Moby (00:33:46):

Gambling. You can do abstinence. Yeah. But like, or like people who are addicted to love and sex and most likely they don't practice abstinence. I and I, my heart goes out to the people who have to figure out how to manage their compulsion but not give it up.

Lindsay (00:34:00):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,

Moby (00:34:01):

I, I, I don't think I would have the strength to do that. Like, I'm lucky that my addiction required a hard, fast, abstinent cutoff. Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (00:34:10):

<affirmative>.

Moby (00:34:10):

So one thing I want would like to talk about is the weird what what I've come to learn what 12 step sobriety actually is. 'cause it's not sobriety.

Lindsay (00:34:23):

What is it?

Moby (00:34:24):

And this is what I didn't, it took me a long time to understand this. And this is just my perspective. Someone disagrees, God bless. But when I got sober, 'cause you asked me at the beginning, like, when you get sober, do you just think it was gonna be like this hard short journey? I thought sobriety involved, giving up alcohol, giving up drugs, and sitting in rooms with sad people who also had given up alcohol and drugs. I didn't know anything more than that. Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (00:34:49):

<affirmative>.

Moby (00:34:49):

And it's so self-evident when you look at the 12 steps, only one of the steps mentions drinking. The first one. Everything else is about a spiritual practice. Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (00:34:58):

<affirmative>.

Moby (00:34:58):

And I remember early days of sobriety, some old bottomed out Bowery bomb. It was like two things. Kid probably said Kid <laugh>. Uh, he was very, you know, like in his seventies, I was in my forties, he said two things. This is a spiritual program and don't quit before the miracle happens. And I just remember thinking like, you're wrong and you're wrong. Like it's, I was like, it's not a spiritual program and what miracle can possibly happen by giving up fun. Like I've, I've given up alcohol and drugs to stay alive, but like, it's definitely not gonna be fun. It's, I not not gonna learn anything. He was 100% right. It is the most intense spiritual program I've ever gone through. And the miracle happens when you get to that point. When you realize that the miracle that this old Bowery bum was talking about is a real thing. It's mind boggling.

Lindsay (00:36:06):

Something i I try to bring into my life that I think of often is the concept of what is emotional sobriety. Because I think connecting to the spiritual, um, part of yourself I think is valuable. But understanding within yourself what your version of sobriety feels like and what that looks like emotionally. Like I heard someone talking earlier about how, how their sobriety has taught them to slow down. They realize that in their addiction they just wanted to move fast and not think and go, go go. And how their sobriety has taught them to take a breath, to sit with feelings, to learn that when something makes you wanna go really fast or or when it feels like these incredible highs and terrible lows, whether it's a substance, whether it's a feeling, whether it's a person, whether it's a place, whether it's any activity. If you start to feel high highs and low lows, there's emotional sobriety might be missing in your life and you should take steps to find it.

Moby (00:37:08):

Absolutely. And I, I would broadly say there are two aspects to that mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it's almost like an illness where oftentimes, like for example, let's say you break your ankle while you're running, first thing you have to do is fix your ankle. Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (00:37:25):

<affirmative>. The

Moby (00:37:25):

Second is to figure out what happened to make it break.

Lindsay (00:37:28):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

Moby (00:37:29):

So what you're describing is very essential. It's the sort of, we'll call it like the behavioral aspect of it. Because if there's one thing humans dislike, but a addicts super dislike is uncomfortable thoughts. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> uncomfortable feelings. You drink or do drugs or engage in compulsion because it's a way of controlling things. It's a way of trying to control your feelings, controlling your uncomfortable emotions. Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (00:37:53):

<affirmative>.

Moby (00:37:54):

And so addressing that on a practical level is very important. Like, what can you do? What can anyone do to be less victimized by their need to control their feelings? There's an old AA expression, which is feelings are not facts. I remember the first time I heard it, I was like, that's garbage. Of course they're facts. And then I slowly realized, no, they're not, they're feelings. Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (00:38:17):

<affirmative>,

Moby (00:38:18):

They're reactions, not responses. You know, when someone cuts you off in a parking lot and you wanna throw a bowling ball at their head, that's not a rational response. That's a compulsion, that's a reaction. And the 12, 12 step programs are wonderful 'cause they both look at the behavior, but they also look at what's underneath it. Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (00:38:39):

<affirmative>.

Moby (00:38:39):

And the underneath is the most fascinating part with any illness. You know, like if, if someone is battling obesity, of course you need to deal with the obesity. But then the underlying issues of what led to the obesity, not blaming, not criticizing, but just saying like, how can we prevent it in the future? Like, what are the underlying causes? And that's what 11.8% of the 12 steps are designed for if done right and done thoroughly.

Lindsay (00:39:05):

Yeah. I feel like under every intense reaction is a just soft little baby animal who's scared or hurting. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I think a lot of people feel a lot more comfortable with the aggressive reaction of throwing the bowling ball and a lot less comfortable with acknowledging the soft baby animal who's scared. Oh,

Moby (00:39:29):

You're

Lindsay (00:39:29):

Inside of you. I'm

Moby (00:39:30):

A hundred percent. That's an incredibly insightful wise thing to say. And just look at our culture. Like we glorify all of these defensive expressions. You know, we like, look at our sports. It's all aggression, it's competition. Look at our, our heroes. They are angry rappers, angry rockers, sexy, uninterested, pop stars. Our politicians are all yelling at each other. It's defensiveness, it's bitterness, it's anger, it's vitriol, it's cynicism, it's, and then even the other less obvious aspects of that are depression.

Lindsay (00:40:09):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>

Moby (00:40:09):

And

Lindsay (00:40:10):

Isolation.

Moby (00:40:11):

Isolation and nihilism. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> like these are just as defensive as the anger and the vitriol and the defensiveness, et cetera. They're

Lindsay (00:40:21):

Reactions. They're not necessarily, they're not a part of you. Yeah.

Moby (00:40:25):

They're

Lindsay (00:40:25):

A reaction that comes from some part of you.

Moby (00:40:28):

And it's funny 'cause I was doing this TV show about 10 years ago. I was acting, 'cause you know, I'm, I'm an actor

Lindsay (00:40:34):

Obviously.

Moby (00:40:35):

So we were shooting in a kindergarten and on the wall of the kindergarten where all these messages and lessons that were taught to us when we were young that so many people have forgotten. It was like, use your words, not your fists. Do you need a timeout? Just all this great advice. And I was like, why don't adults get told this stuff <laugh>? But that question that you addressed is like, what's really going on underneath the anger? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,

Lindsay (00:41:01):

What's

Moby (00:41:01):

Going on underneath the despair, what's going on underneath the cynicism, the bitterness. And it's, we should all be taught this from day one. Like ideally school, this would be a class every day you're in school. It should be that question of like, how do you identify and connect with what's really going on with you? You know, it

Lindsay (00:41:22):

Builds a framework of, okay, I'm having a reaction. Can I be more of an observer of my own self in this moment? And look a little bit deeper than the the violent or impulsive reaction that I'm having right now. I think what it does is say, this is what I do when I have a reaction. I don't act on it. I think about it and I try to actually maybe acknowledge a deeper part of myself and heal something that has been hurting for a long time. Like using a trigger as an opportunity to heal.

Moby (00:41:57):

And you had to become aware of the vulnerability mm-hmm.

Lindsay (00:42:00):

<affirmative> to

Moby (00:42:00):

Become aware of what really, there's one, two recurring aspects to the 12 step program that most people would think have nothing to do with sobriety, fear and control. And what we're talking about, at least in my life, and from my perspective, whenever we ask that question, what's really going on? The question is, what am I afraid of? What am I trying to control? Control is oftentimes just a result of fear. We're not even aware of it. One thing that really helped me to get sober and stay sober was to realize that I was terrible at controlling things. You know, when I tried to control things, I ended up alone and suicidal, filled with despair and, and resentment and fury. And I was like, okay. So that's what control led me, you know, where, where control led me. And when you realize you're terrible at controlling things, it helps you to sort of maybe be less attached to the need to control.

Moby (00:42:58):

But then the question is, where is it coming from? You know, that need to control. And you might say like, well, without control, like, who's gonna look after me? You know, how am I gonna succeed? How am I gonna feed myself? It's like, well, you can still look after yourself and feed yourself without being compulsively, you know, compelled to control things. And control from my perspective comes from individual fear. We live in a scary world and, and vulnerability. We're taught at an early age to, to ignore the vulnerability, to cover up the vulnerability, to pretend it's not there. But I will say, and this is one thing I was excited to talk about, is the existential aspect of it is that vulnerability we're talking about on individual level. And I don't know if this is gonna make sense to anybody, so if it doesn't, I apologize. But on an as individuals, we're scared. We have a lot of vulnerability. We have tons of fear and self-doubt. It's just that's the human condition. Unless you are a psychopath, you know, lucky them, they're not, they're not troubled by vulnerability. And self-doubt must

Lindsay (00:44:04):

Be nice.

Moby (00:44:04):

But on a species level, the vulnerability that we experience as primates, you know, even though like most of us lead relatively healthy lives, meaning we're not getting attacked by hippos every day. Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (00:44:19):

<affirmative>.

Moby (00:44:19):

But we're only alive for a few decades in a universe that's 15 billion years old, you know, we know that we get old, we know that we get sick. We know that everything around us dies and turns into dust. We know these things. That's terrifying. On one hand, we're trying to control a world that is made out of dust mm-hmm.

Lindsay (00:44:40):

<affirmative>. And

Moby (00:44:40):

We deep down we know that like the world as we perceive it at some point will turn into dust. And that creates, I would almost call it like hereditary species wide fear and vulnerability. So

Lindsay (00:44:55):

I'm looking up something that you said to me the other day that I kept in my notes and I've been reading it every morning. Uh

Moby (00:45:00):

Oh. What did I probably plagiarized it.

Lindsay (00:45:02):

No, I don't think that you did. <laugh>. Can I read it? Is that okay?

Moby (00:45:05):

Sure.

Lindsay (00:45:06):

So you said, you said the human condition prevents us from having anything even resembling omniscience. But our lack of omniscience terrifies us and makes us gravitate toward anything that gives us structure and control for alcoholics. That's alcohol, for gambling addicts, it's gambling for love, addicts, it's love, et cetera. We assume that the world is this hostile, terrible place and that the only thing that will make it good is being able to control almost every part of it. But trying to control it through substances or anger or resentment or arrogance is a fool's errand because the universe is unknowable and uncontrollable. So the first step is giving up control, followed by the second and third. And then the fourth step is looking at all the ways in which we try to control things. And then we make amends for the way we hurt people by trying to control things. And then we recognize that being of service and trying to connect with the divine is the only thing that makes sense. And it's good that ultimately the universe is a loving, benign place. And that if we work to maintain our connection with it, we will live good lives, even if they are hard or complicated.

Moby (00:46:11):

Wow. That's the longest text I've ever sent in my entire life.

Lindsay (00:46:13):

It was a chunk, but I honestly, I loved it so much and I felt so moved by it when I read it because there's something so nonsensical in the brain to think that everything is chaos and out of our control. And I think it's such a hard thing to fathom.

Moby (00:46:31):

We've talked about this with some of our brain doctor friends, our neuroscientist friends mm-hmm. <affirmative>, our therapist friends, uh, thinking of like Albert Ellis, who was the father of rational emotive therapy that I think became cognitive behavioral therapy is the difference between preference and compulsion. Like for example, if your kid's getting straight A's, that's great. Going out to dinner with your boyfriend or girlfriend or significant other, great waking up at five 30 and exercising great if their preferences mm-hmm. <affirmative> with the understanding that like, you don't need these things, but the compulsion is where we go wrong. Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (00:47:08):

<affirmative>, you

Moby (00:47:09):

Know, someone who says like, wow, they're really looking forward to going out and having a couple drinks and maybe even doing drugs with their friends. Like sure. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. When you say to yourself, this is the only way I can be happy and I need this, that when it becomes a compulsion

Lindsay (00:47:23):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,

Moby (00:47:23):

That's when, you know, like waking up and doing yoga, great. That's wonderful. Feeling like you have to do it. And if you don't do it, you're the biggest piece of garbage that's ever existed. That's a compulsion, that's rigidity. So it's a very tricky line. And I think with all of us, we all understand if we take a step back things in our lives where we have a gentle preference as opposed to a compulsion. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like for example, if there was a piece of chocolate cake on the table here, I'd be like, yeah, I'd love to eat that. And if you said you can't eat it, I'd be like, okay. I wouldn't really care. Whereas if I was still drinking and you said, here's a a beer, hold it and don't drink it, I would punch myself in the face. Yeah.

Lindsay (00:48:02):

I never

Moby (00:48:02):

Wanted to hurt other people. It was all was hurting myself. <laugh>. So, and the the existential aspect that you're alluding to of that feeling, and it's, there's such a hereditary component to it, because so many of our ancestors did live in an unbelievably hostile world. Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (00:48:21):

<affirmative>, you know,

Moby (00:48:21):

A world where they didn't live very long, they were hungry, they were cold, they were being attacked by giant rabbits or whatever, attack people back then, the world was terrifying. Those are our ancestors. We inherited that fear, but we're almost like people who like inherited war, but the war has ended. Like we're so ready to fight. And I'm like, what? We're just fighting ourselves like we're the cause we're, we're now the cause of the war. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> we're the cause of the problem. And obviously there is the context of the universe and one of the hardest concepts for me to make peace with, but that I actually do believe is that the universe is gonna sound like such hippie nonsense. But I believe it is, the universe is a loving place. The universe is so deeply concerned with our wellbeing, it's just that its concerns might not look like ours.

Lindsay (00:49:11):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you

Moby (00:49:12):

Know, like if someone doesn't get a promotion at work, they might be like, why does the universe hate me? It's like, well maybe that's not, what's the universe, that's not the universe's priority. So I know that might sound like privileged hippie Southern California nonsense to say that the universe is loving and benign, but I truly believe like, in such a, a deep, weird way. I believe that.

Lindsay (00:49:35):

Well, that's kind of like you saying that you think you believe your higher power is loving and benign. Wouldn't you say that?

Moby (00:49:42):

I'm, I'm like, I don't know who my higher power is. I don't know what my higher power is. I don't know where it lives. I don't think it has a name, but I look at the tiny bits of evidence like

Lindsay (00:49:54):

Butterflies, <laugh>,

Moby (00:49:57):

I do butterflies are amazing. Um, if you look at them too closely, they're kind of creepy looking. Like if I

Lindsay (00:50:02):

Love them.

Moby (00:50:03):

Like, it's kinda like ladybugs. Like if you look at them from a distance, oh, they're adorable. Look 'em up close. They're like terrifying bugs

Lindsay (00:50:08):

<laugh>.

Moby (00:50:09):

I wish them nothing but the best. And I love them. But they both are kind of scary when you look at them up close.

Lindsay (00:50:14):

Yeah, maybe. But I loved them. So

Moby (00:50:17):

My one example I always think of is our immune systems and on our, on our podcast journey, have I talked about my weird experience on Amtrak going from New York to Philadelphia?

Lindsay (00:50:32):

I can't remember.

Moby (00:50:33):

I was relatively newly sober and I was going from New York to Philadelphia on the train. It was a morning train. So the, the car I was in was filled with businessmen eating garbage, like Amtrak scrambled eggs with bacon and diet coke, and like hunched over their phones and angry and scowling and, and outside the window I was like, I could see all this industrial wasteland of northern New Jersey, like falling down bridges and pollution. And then I looked a little closer and we were going through a marsh, and I had this moment, I was like, oh my God. Like this is some of the most toxic landscape on the planet and nature's trying to thrive. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> like nature's trying to live like this on a cellular level. Nature's trying to heal this. And I looked at all these businessmen shoveling garbage eggs and bacon and diet coke into their mouths. And I thought nature's even trying to heal them, they're feeding themselves poison and nature's trying to protect them. And the weirdest thing happened. I started crying just like consumed with like, okay, I'm getting choked up now. Like that's, that's my benign universe. That's the, the immune system works 24 hours a day from before you're born to keep us alive, even though all we do is torture ourselves and, and harm ourselves. That's my evidence of a loving, benign universe.

Lindsay (00:51:55):

That's really good evidence.

Moby (00:52:08):

One thing I wanted to talk about on a practical level is how recovery helps on a daily basis. Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (00:52:16):

<affirmative>, like

Moby (00:52:17):

We're talking on a very lofty spiritual level, but on a practical level, how does it help?

Lindsay (00:52:21):

Yeah.

Moby (00:52:22):

For me it's a reminder and I have to practice this because my, my inclination is to disregard everything we've just talked about and be a resentful, angry person, <laugh>, but remembering that this is better, remembering that this is healthier and more sustainable. When I'm confronted with resentment, when I'm confronted with my desire to control, I have to remember like, okay, I've learned otherwise and not in an arbitrary way. I've learned otherwise based on my own failures trying to control and also my good experiences letting go. So if I'm having arguments, it's remembering, okay, you can step back from the argument. You can have restraint of pen and tongue and you can apologize. You know, the, the most powerful thing is a sincere apology. And sometimes I'm reminded by people I know in the world of recovery, like I'll be expressing bitterness or what have you. And someone will say like, okay, well what step is represented in your anger and bitterness? I'm like, oh yeah, that's right. <laugh>, I have a program that I want to live by. And when I fall short that's understandable, it's fine. But get back on the vegan horse. Get back on mm-hmm. <affirmative> the program of, you know, spiritual sobriety.

Lindsay (00:53:34):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. That's a beautiful thing. And I think, you know, from what I've seen, it gives you a sense of coping mechanisms because I think a lot of us are not raised with great coping mechanisms of calling people that understand your journey of having meetings to go to where you can hear other people's journey and connect with texture. Texture, texture.

Moby (00:53:59):

Sure. Go with with

Lindsay (00:54:00):

Text. With text that helps you think deeper understanding. I think, I

Moby (00:54:04):

Think sending texture to people like, like fabric swatches, little bits of like curtain samples help

Lindsay (00:54:10):

My brain <laugh>, I blame bagel poops for that. Um, with texts that you can read with steps, you can work again. Right. Again, you know what I mean? Like, it gives you practical tools for your, for every single day.

Moby (00:54:22):

And the weird thing that people don't wanna talk about that I probably shouldn't talk about either, which is prayer.

Lindsay (00:54:28):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

Moby (00:54:29):

Like, I know when we think of prayer, you think of like someone who works at Hobby Lobby and like goes to one of those big giant megachurches. But like, I pray a lot, you know, and the ultimate prayer from my perspective is your will not mine be done. Like whatever the divine is, whoever, wherever the divine might be, it probably knows things better than I do. Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (00:54:54):

It's been

Moby (00:54:54):

Around longer, it's more objective. It understands things. And so like if there's even the possibility that the divine is interested in us, that divine is involved with us and it wants us, it wants to help us in some way, why not avail ourselves of that? Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (00:55:12):

<affirmative>, you

Moby (00:55:13):

Know, like I'm, I'm just a few decades old, granted more than a few, uh, but still I'm decades old, not millennia, not billions of years old. And that prayer of saying like, look, I don't know what to do, whoever you are Divine. I immediately think of the actor in the John Waters movies, <laugh>. Um, but whoever you are, divinity and divine, um, just your will be done. Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (00:55:39):

<affirmative>, you

Moby (00:55:39):

Know, and the truth of that is such a hard 'cause. Like, boy, it took me forever to really believe that prayer, you know, to believe that there was a divine, a divinity, a, a force like Yoda. There, there was some energy out there that knew better than I did, and that I could give up control at times to that mm-hmm. <affirmative> entity, whatever it is. That's one of the hardest things to do. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>

Lindsay (00:56:08):

To

Moby (00:56:08):

Recognize the limits of your own control and to hand it over to a higher power, whatever it might. Again, my higher power doesn't have a name. It doesn't have a chair, it doesn't have a beard, it doesn't have it. I don't know what it is, <laugh>, but I feel that it's there. And if it's not, if someone proved to me it isn't, I'd be like, oh, that's a bummer. Like, I'm not gonna go to war over it. It's a subjective belief. That makes sense to me.

Lindsay (00:56:34):

He once told me that you thought there was a good chance your higher power is a disco dancing squirrel wearing a sequin suit. Yeah,

Moby (00:56:41):

That is correct. <laugh>. I was doing an extended meditation once, and I, it was a guided meditation and the person leading the meditation, we went on this long guided journey. And at the end of it, the surprise was we were gonna meet the divine <laugh>. And at the very end, she was like, okay, now, now look across this stone pavilion or wherever you've ended up, and the first thing you see will be your manifestation of the divine. And I was for a split second, I was like, what's it gonna be? Is it gonna be like a majestic being of light? Is it going to be a huge golden elephant with wisdom shooting out of its nose or trunk? Do elephants have noses? I assume the

Lindsay (00:57:23):

End end, that's like a long nose.

Moby (00:57:24):

Okay. And instead, the first thing I saw was a disco dancing chipmunk wearing an Elvis costume, <laugh>. And I was with a whole group of people and I started laughing and laughing. And in an instant I was like, of course, my manifestation of the divine is a disco dancing chipmunk in an Elvis costume because it's the universe. The universe has been everything. Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (00:57:49):

<affirmative>, the

Moby (00:57:49):

Universe isn't big, the universe isn't small, the universe isn't old, the universe isn't young. The universe has no fixed identity. You know, think about it like I'm looking at your shoes, which I assume you stole from a secretary somewhere. They're

Lindsay (00:58:07):

Off the back of the truck.

Moby (00:58:07):

Yeah. So I'm looking at your very functional shoes, <laugh>. And no offense to your shoes. I I too like a good,

Lindsay (00:58:14):

They're very stylish.

Moby (00:58:15):

Yeah, clearly. So I'm looking at your very stylish, functional shoes, <laugh>. And just think a hundred years ago, what were they? They were sand on a beach. Yeah. They were the feather on a pigeon. They were a burp from a hundred year old stockbroker. They were water going down Niagara Falls. They were a cloud matter. Never for 1000000000000th of a second has fixed identity. Just doesn't, it's always in the state of flux. So like, if my manifestation of the divine is a representation of a universe with no fixed identity, isn't a disco dancing chipmunk in an Elvis costume just as good and just as aptt as anything else?

Lindsay (00:58:58):

I can't see why not. I have no proof that it wouldn't be.

Moby (00:59:01):

Yeah. Thank you. And if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'm not saying God is a disco dancing chipmunk in a sequined Elvis costume. But as far as a Godhead or an avatar, sure. E everything is equally ridiculous and relevant in terms of the representation of the divine.

Lindsay (00:59:20):

I couldn't agree more.

Moby (00:59:23):

Um, have, have I, have we gone off too far afield from the world of sobriety?

Lindsay (00:59:27):

Well, I think it's all connected. I think, I thinks it's a spiritual program, man. Getting spiritual.

Moby (00:59:32):

I thought to, to wrap things up. Maybe, maybe I'd play a song. I

Lindsay (00:59:36):

Would love that. Okay. A song about a disco dancing chipmunk in a, I

Moby (00:59:42):

Wish

Lindsay (00:59:43):

<laugh>,

Moby (00:59:43):

I need to write a good song about a disco dancing chipmunk in a sequin Elvis costume.

Lindsay (00:59:47):

Maybe we should do that for our next Write-A-Song.

Moby (00:59:50):

But instead I thought Extreme Ways.

Lindsay (00:59:52):

I love that.

Moby (00:59:53):

Oh, okay. I will. But it's, it's a sad song.

Lindsay (00:59:55):

Why does it seem sad to you?

Moby (00:59:57):

I mean, the chorus then it fell apart. Like it's kind, it's not that. Yeah.

Lindsay (01:00:01):

But that was also your share. You're talking about the darkness. Yeah. And the ways that it fell apart. But that was what gave you the gift of where you are now. You

Moby (01:00:09):

Know what AA is really good for? Tell

Lindsay (01:00:10):

Me

Moby (01:00:11):

Acronyms and cute sayings. <laugh>.

Lindsay (01:00:14):

Okay. Gimme one

Moby (01:00:15):

"ForEver Avoiding Reality" FEAR.

Lindsay (01:00:20):

Yeah.

Moby (01:00:21):

Another one involves a grownup word. "F*ck Everything And Run". It's also FEAR. Um, my two favorite acronyms for God. "Gift Of Desperation".

Lindsay (01:00:31):

Okay. I like that. And

Moby (01:00:33):

"Group Of Drunks".

Lindsay (01:00:34):

That's really, really funny. My personal favorite is Q-Tip. "Quit Taking It Personally". <laugh>

Moby (01:00:40):

<laugh>. I never heard that one. That's a really good one. How about "seven days without prayer or a meeting makes one week"

Lindsay (01:00:50):

Ehhhhh! That took me a second. I like it. I like it.

Moby (01:00:53):

Aa I mean, I guess this is what happens when you take a bunch of addicts and give them a lot of free time. <laugh> to come up with acronyms and cute little bumper stickers. <laugh>. So I'm gonna play an acoustic version of extreme ways if you and bagel wanna leave. I understand. 'cause it might be uncomfortable for you to sit here while I play music. I'm gonna

Lindsay (01:01:09):

Look you right in the eyeballs for this. Okay.

Moby (01:01:12):

I'll take off my glasses. So I can't see things. So good. <laugh>. Okay. So this song was written in the year 2001. And what's interesting in 2001, I was drinking and doing drugs and going out seven nights a week or six nights a week. I would stay home when I was too hung over to go out. But I hadn't yet been fully confronted with the consequences of being a drunk. Or rather, the consequences were just drunkenness. I hadn't gotten to the dark place yet. Things were fantastic. I was on SNL. I had a giant billboard of me in Times Square. Like things were out of control, rather controlled. But like, there were as materialistic and zeitgeist satisfactory as they could be, you know? Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (01:02:00):

<affirmative>.

Moby (01:02:01):

But somehow I knew it wasn't gonna last. And that terrified me. It was sort of like there were storm clouds on the horizon. The song is sort of written about that. Like at the moment, everything was sunny, everything was great, everything was celebratory and ridiculous. I felt like I had conquered the human condition through fame and adulation and alcohol and drugs and socializing. That is another subtext to this, is you can't conquer the human condition. It doesn't matter who you are. It doesn't matter if you're the wealthiest person or the least wealthy person. No one conquers the human condition. It's just a given that we all try to pretend isn't the truth. Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (01:02:43):

<affirmative>.

Moby (01:02:43):

So Extreme Waves was written as I was believing that I had conquered the human condition through fame and degeneracy and addiction or rather alcohol and drugs. I didn't know it was addiction at the time, but I just had this inkling like, okay, there's darkness on the horizon. Wow. So extreme ways is the darkness on the horizon.

Lindsay (01:03:04):

Let's hear it.

Moby (01:03:05):

You sure? You and bagel wanna sit here for this? Yeah.

Lindsay (01:03:08):

I, yeah. I think it's better if you feel like 10% uncomfortable. <laugh>.

Moby (01:03:13):

I feel a little weird about playing and singing for a couple reasons. One reason is I just generally, I mean, look, I mean we're sitting here just like you, me and Bagel in this room. Like

Lindsay (01:03:26):

It's a little bit like that scene from Barbie. A movie you've never seen.

Moby (01:03:28):

No.

Lindsay (01:03:29):

Where the Kens, once they get power, they just make the Barbies sit and listen to them play guitar.

Moby (01:03:35):

Oh, no. <laugh>.

Lindsay (01:03:38):

But I'm signing up for this. You did all, you did invite me to leave the room.

Moby (01:03:41):

Oh man.

Lindsay (01:03:42):

Will you be <laugh>?

Moby (01:03:45):

So not only, okay, so now I have another reason to be uncomfortable. It's like, I'm basically like Ken and Barbie. You could sing along.

Lindsay (01:03:53):

No, no. I, I'm not You're you're so great at the song. I love this song.

Moby (01:03:57):

Okay.

Moby (01:04:20):

<sings> Extreme ways are back again. Extreme places I didn't know broke everything new again. Everything that I owned, I threw it out. The windows came along. Extreme ways I know will part the colors of my sea. Perfect color ring extreme ways held me. It held me out late at night. Extreme places I had gone. Never seen any light, dirty basements, dirty noise, dirty places coming through. Extreme worlds alone. Did you ever like it then? I would stand in a line for this. There's always room in life for this. Oh, babe. Oh, babe. And it fell apart. Fell apart. Oh, babe. Oh, babe. And then it fell apart. It fell apart. Extreme sounds are held me. They held me out later night. Well, I didn't have much to say. I didn't give up the light. I closed my eyes. I closed myself. I closed my world. I'll never open up to anything Kept me at all. I had to close down everything. I had to close down my mind. Too many things could cut me too much could make me blind. I seen so much in so many places and so many heartaches, so many faces, so many dirty things you couldn't even believe. I would stand in a line for this. There's always room in life for this. Oh, babe. Oh, babe. Then it fell apart. It fell apart. Oh, babe. Oh, babe. Then it fell apart. Fell apart. What you say my name was? You say it then what you say my name was. Oh, say it then. Well, I know I can, I know I can. I know I can't find love. Oh, babe, Oh, babe apart Oh, babe, Oh, babe, like it always does.

Moby (01:08:00):

Sorry. Bagel

Lindsay (01:08:01):

Bagel liked that I think.

Moby (01:08:02):

Really?

Lindsay (01:08:02):

Yeah.

Moby (01:08:03):

She was, she Was staring at me and I was trying not to look at her. 'cause I didn't know if she was like looking at me like, why are you ignoring me <laugh>? Or what are you doing? I don't like, maybe combination. Like, what are you doing? I don't understand. But this is kind of interesting. Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (01:08:19):

<affirmative>

Moby (01:08:20):

And why are you ignoring me?

Lindsay (01:08:21):

I think probably more the latter than the former <laugh>. Um, your voice sounds really good. Really? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

Moby (01:08:28):

Okay. So shall we say goodbye? Yeah. Okay. Well, before we say goodbye, I would like to just speak to anyone out there who might be wrestling with an addiction of their own or even just a compulsion of their own. 'cause we, like, we're all, even though those of us who are not bottomed out addicts are still prone to obsessive thoughts and compulsion. And the other thing I'd like to say is they're also the people who are family members to addicts and or who are dating or romantically involved or married to addicts. And what I can say is there, there's treatment out there for everyone. Well, treatment sounds maybe a little too clinical. There's programs, there's help out there. Whatever you are going through, other people have gone through it. And as scary as it might seem, by sharing what you're going through with other people who've gone through it, you can understand what you're going through better. And you can hopefully find a way of living where you're not victimized by addiction or compulsion or someone else's addiction. Yeah.

Lindsay (01:09:44):

I think that's beautiful. I think that when you are ready, uh, what is that saying? When the student is ready, the teacher appears. Yeah. I think when you're ready to take a step like this, or when you have tried everything, or when you are sick and tired of being sick and tired, um, there's options for you. I think that's a really beautiful and exciting and hopeful thing.

Moby (01:10:06):

Yeah. It's whether it's a 12 step meeting, whether it's talking to a therapist, whether it's going online and just sort of doing the research mm-hmm. <affirmative> whether, I mean, like, the key I think is the willingness, the, the willingness to be open and the willingness to potentially share what you're going through with another person. Because there's something very just inherently powerful about that.

Lindsay (01:10:27):

Scary, but unbelievably healing. Yeah.

Moby (01:10:30):

So, on that note, should we, do you wanna say thank you to the people we wanna say thank you to?

Lindsay (01:10:36):

Yeah. Well, I, first of all, I wanna thank you Moby, for your candor and vulnerability. I know that to you it may seem easy because you've had a lot of practice, but for most people, I don't think that they would say the same. So thank you for that and for sharing. It's very, um, empowering and, uh, your experience I hope, touches people in the way. Well, thanks. It has touched me. Um, and in addition to that, I wanna thank Jonathan Nesvadba who edits this podcast masterfully, in my opinion. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but also in the opinion of many others. Um, I wanna thank Bagel for being just the best in the whole wide world. Um, just a floppy little angel. Yep. Um, I want to thank Human Content for getting this podcast out into the world. And I wanna thank you, listener for listening. We wouldn't have as much fun if you weren't here on this ride with us, so thank you.