Moby (00:12):

Hi, and welcome to another episode of Moby Pod. Hi, Lindsay.

Lindsay (00:17):

Hi, Moby and

Moby (00:18):

Bagel. Just got a haircut. So she looks like a shiny little chihuahua seal. Mm-Hmm.

Lindsay (00:22):

<affirmative>. She's perfect and beautiful.

Moby (00:24):

So today, well, today, this month, November is a very special month for me.

Lindsay (00:30):

Okay. Why?

Moby (00:31):

Well, it was this month, November 36 years ago. Wow. That I became a vegan.

Lindsay (00:39):

Ah,

Moby (00:40):

I know. That's

Lindsay (00:41):

A, that's so many years <laugh>.

Moby (00:44):

And November, 1987, I had my last piece of cheese pizza. Uh, and it was disgusting because I was at a band practice in New York City, and I remember I walked across the street and I got a disgusting piece of cheese pizza. And I was like, that's it, I'm done. And ever since then, I've been a vegan. So to celebrate or to commemorate or to honor, it's 36 years of veganism. This month we're gonna have a lot of vegan stuff on Moby Pod.

Lindsay (01:13):

Very exciting. And

Moby (01:14):

For starters, we're going to do two episodes, two back to back episodes with Gene Baur who started Farm Sanctuary. And I know, uh, before we interviewed him, you did a lot of research. So do you wanna tell people about Gene Baur and who he is?

Lindsay (01:31):

Yes. I did a lot of research on Gene Baur, but I also have known of Gene Baur for a very long time because he has been an inspiration to me for a very long time because he started Farm Sanctuary, which is a place I really love. The one in California. I haven't been to the one in New York yet, but I've always been very inspired by that. But he's also an author, an activist. He's testified in front of many legislative bodies. He is such an inspiration to many. And also, and I don't think a lot of people know this, he's a real dream boat. <laugh>.

Moby (02:04):

<laugh>, yeah. So in addition to being the only person on the planet I know who's been vegan longer than I have, he's also this fascinating combination as I think people will realize is he's incredibly smart, but also so kind and balanced. And as we talk about in the interview, there's one thing that also really freaks me out about him. What? He's in perfect shape.

Lindsay (02:32):

This man is so fit.

Moby (02:33):

And he's early sixties, I'm guessing, late fifties, early

Lindsay (02:37):

Sixties, I think. So he was born in 62,

Moby (02:38):

So early sixties. Um,

Lindsay (02:40):

Yes. This man for fun will just run up a mountain

Moby (02:44):

To the top of a mountain <laugh>. I remember, and we talk about this in the interview, but like, 'cause he grew up in this neighborhood Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> where we are right now in Hollywood.

Lindsay (02:51):

Lots of hills to run up.

Moby (02:52):

And I saw him one day and we were just making polite conversation. I was like, oh, so what'd you do today? And he's like, oh, I ran to the top of the Hollywood sign.

Lindsay (03:01):

Well, that's such, in such a hard thing to do in

Moby (03:03):

Mind. Walking to the top of the Hollywood sign is arduous.

Lindsay (03:06):

I did it once and I was like not doing that again.

Moby (03:08):

And so in the middle, like a hot summer day, like 98 degrees, he runs to the top of the Hollywood sign. Like, he makes me want to exercise eight hours a day.

Lindsay (03:17):

Yeah. He's, he's a very impressive person from his brain. But also that man is a very fit man.

Moby (03:23):

So Enough talking about Gene Baur, why don't we go in order to sort of commemorate, celebrate my 36 year vegan anniversary, boy, I just feel so uncomfortable whenever there's a vegan pun like vegan, vegan anniversary, <laugh>. I mean, they're

Lindsay (03:42):

Good,

Moby (03:43):

But every time I say like vegan anniversary, I'm thrilled to have been vegan for 36 years. But just saying that pun makes me uncomfortable. I mean,

Lindsay (03:50):

You could say vegan anniversary, but then people will just be like Portmanteau at Moby. Yep.

Moby (03:56):

Okay. So my portmanteau of 36 year vegan anniversary. So let's go talk to Gene Baur. Yay. Hi Lindsay.

Lindsay (04:16):

Hi Moby. And

Moby (04:17):

Hi Gene.

Gene (04:17):

Hi Moby.

Moby (04:18):

I just realized that is a pun. Sorry. Hygiene.

Lindsay (04:23):

Oh, hygiene.

Gene (04:23):

Oh, Moby. I was trying to figure out how's that a pun for hygiene? Yeah,

Moby (04:27):

I'm, I'm uncomfortable for so many reasons, but especially 'cause I just made a bad pun about your name that you've probably heard a few million times. But it's new to me 'cause I'm simple.

Gene (04:38):

We're all simple. Ultimately <laugh> <laugh>, you know, we all learn as we go. And

Moby (04:42):

So thank you for being here and there's so much we wanna talk about with you from Farm Sanctuary to your own journey growing up in Los Angeles and everything. But first, there are a couple things I'd like to get out the way. One is something I'm so challenged by and confused by when we were getting ready to to, to talk to you today. We were looking at the Tucker Carlson interview.

Gene (05:08):

Oh God. Yeah.

Moby (05:09):

And, and in my mind, Tucker Carlson is like almost everything that's wrong with culture and politics in the United States, but like, or

Lindsay (05:16):

At least a product of it. Yeah,

Moby (05:17):

Yeah. But he was so surprisingly respectful of you and your perspective.

Lindsay (05:24):

What was that like for you? I mean, you must have gone on thinking he was gonna be like, no, we should murder all the animals.

Gene (05:29):

<laugh> Yeah. Going in, I really didn't know what to expect, but I didn't really think I had a lot to lose, honestly. 'cause I didn't figure that much of his audience would be very sympathetic. But as we started getting into the issues, he tried, I think, to create drama and battles. And I just tried to move away from that and talk about issues. Mm-Hmm.

Moby (05:47):

<affirmative>,

Gene (05:48):

You know, he first said, you wanna take away everybody's meat? And I said, look, I can't tell other people what to eat. Right. So he, he tried to make it combative and I tried to keep away from that and talk about issues. And ultimately he agreed with many of the things I said, which was quite surprising and very good news. Very good to see

Moby (06:05):

<laugh>. It was so dis it's so disconcerting when people you expect to be terrible aren't like great in a way and encouraging. But nonetheless, it was just like, I just, yeah. I assumed he would do everything in his power, kind of like Piers Morgan style. Like whenever Piers Morgan talks to a vegan or an animal rights activist, like he just only will go for the jugular, try and be combative.

Gene (06:28):

I think he wanted to do that, and I just did the juujitsu on him, you know what I mean? And, and sort of went around to the common ground. And for me, I think one of the most effective ways to advocate for our issues is to make it about principles more than about people. Mm-Hmm.

Moby (06:41):

<affirmative>,

Gene (06:42):

You know? And so often in politics it's about this person or that person. Right. The big issue though is what are they doing and what do they stand for? So he is kind of sympathetic to animals amazingly. Um, but he also sometimes uses that as a way to criticize other countries in a way that I don't think is appropriate. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So we just talk about the animal side and not so much about the blaming some other country thing. So for me it's really about principles more than personalities. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And, and that is how I was able, I think, to, to talk to Tucker Carlson and to have a lot of common ground. Amazingly.

Moby (07:16):

Yeah. I also love the idea of like, bringing the perspective to an audience. I mean, 'cause as we all know, like it's so comforting and easy to preach to the choir. And I don't even think preaching to the choir is necessarily a bad thing if it builds community and if it strengthens people's commitment to the cause. I mean, how many people who were paying attention to Tucker, Carlson's show back then had ever even encountered a vegan or an animal rights activist? Like you basically were like a space alien to them.

Gene (07:43):

Yeah. I think that's true. And at the end of the interview, he said, I must admit, you know, I thought I was gonna talk to, I thought, you're gonna be crazy when I started this, but you make some reasonable points. Yeah. So it was really amazing to see that. And again, it's about the issues and about being responsible. You know, I think actually a lot of progressive and vegan ideals are rooted in many ways in sort of conservative ideals. Right. Responsibility, let's not destroy the earth. Let's conserve resources. You know, these are somewhat conservative ideas. So I think there are places for things to come together to find common ground. Mm-Hmm.

Moby (08:18):

<affirmative>.

Gene (08:18):

And that's what, you know, one of Farm Sanctuary's primary values is to speak to people where they are on their own journeys. Uh, and also to recognize that we have an awful lot in common. We all benefit from a food system that doesn't make us sick the way our food system currently does. We all benefit from an agricultural system that doesn't destroy the planet. And cause the climate crisis, you know, we all benefit, I believe also from kindness to other animals as opposed to people working in slaughterhouses. You know? So one of the evolutions of the animal movement has been to become a little bit more holistic and to see things more systemically and to recognize it, individuals get stuck up in the machinery. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> working in slaughterhouses, and the actions they're engaged in are horrendous. But the individuals engaged in those practices are oftentimes also just victims of a bigger machine. Mm-Hmm.

Lindsay (09:09):

<affirmative>,

Gene (09:09):

You know, so it's love the sinner, hate the sin is kind of Yeah. An approach that we've, we've started taking more actively.

Lindsay (09:15):

Yeah. I think that's really amazing. I was, when we were in DC we were learning so much about the farm bill and how trying to get legislation through that changes the systems is so unbelievably challenging, even though it's very obviously harmful. It's still so hard to change. But I know you've been a huge pro. Well, oh wait, I feel like we're getting ahead of ourselves. We are. Are we getting ahead ourselves?

Moby (09:36):

We are, but that's, so I think that's just enthusiasm.

Lindsay (09:39):

Okay. Yeah. Just excited

Moby (09:40):

<laugh>. And at some point we wanna do just basic biographical stuff. But let's, um, like when we've, when I first see bagels, she needs to run around a little bit

Lindsay (09:48):

<laugh>. Yeah. No, we had to run in circles. 'cause we, I have to tell you, Gene, when we first started this podcast, you are a name that has come up since before day one of someone that we were so thrilled to talk about everything with and talk about you. And so that's part of our enthusiasm is that we've, it's been a long time coming.

Gene (10:05):

Well, I'm Enthusiastic. I'm very happy to be here.

New Speaker (10:08):

The one thing while we're talking about animal issues is one of the fascinating things about advocating for animal rights is that almost everyone already agrees with us. Like everything you just said, not in addition to like, food shouldn't make you sick and let's not destroy the only home we have. But the weirdest thing is, like with a lot of activist issues, you have to convi educate people and convince people to care about your issue. The weirdest thing with this, most people, unless they're psychopaths, already care about animals. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. It's just asking them to extend a little bit. Say like, okay, you, you love dogs. You would never want to hurt any animal, but yet you're complicit in this system that destroys a trillion animals a year. But they already agree with us. It's so baffling that like people agree with our ideas, just not the translation of idea into action.

Gene (11:02):

Yeah. It is really baffling, like you say, how people's behavior is so inconsistent with their own values and people have certain habits like eating animals. Uh, one of the biggest obstacles to change, I think, is fear of not knowing what I'm going to eat, not knowing how I can actually go vegan. And it's made even more difficult when you have a whole machine and a system behind, like belief systems, economic systems making animal foods much more accessible and cheap and affordable. So people live in this inconsistency of wanting to be kind, but knowing they're not being kind by their actions. And so there's a couple ways to respond to this, right? One is to try to make changes. The other is to just dismiss it or rationalize it and say, well, those vegans, they might have a good point, but it's not reasonable. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> or it's not realistic. Or, or I wouldn't get my protein. You know, there's these these assumptions that start floating into the rationalizations and they're myths. And, and those are things we need to challenge at every turn. So this idea we can't get protein from plant foods is not correct. This idea we best get calcium from cows milk is not correct. The idea that factory farming is the best way to feed the world is not correct. So these are these assumptions that are put out there over and over and over again.

Moby (12:19):

And when people are so categorically wrong about so many things, how do you respectfully say to someone like, oh, you're just, you're wrong. Like, like everything you just mentioned, like when someone says like, oh, I don't think I could get enough protein. It's like, oh, you're wrong. It's that question of how do you compassionately respectfully tell people that they're actually wrong? Not judging, not saying you're a bad person, but saying like, factually you are mistaken. Not you obviously, but like, when we're talk, we're having these conversations. It's such a challenge to respect the person you're talking to and not simply say, but I'm sorry. You're just wrong. Your

Gene (12:59):

Facts are just dead off. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think, um, we are very emotional, more than we are rational. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I think that the fear of change, the fear of seeing it gets in the way of people seeing it. You know, there's that old Uton Sinclair quote, you know, it's hard for somebody to see something when their job depends on them not seeing it. And here when a person's feeling an identity and, and belief in themselves as being a humane person is inconsistent with their actions, they just don't want to see it. And

Moby (13:24):

Community and family and tradition and ease and cost all these variables.

Gene (13:30):

Yeah.

Moby (13:31):

It is so hard to do the right thing when all those other variables are pulling you in a direction that you know is wrong. It's just easier to say like, okay, I'm gonna do the wrong thing. Yep.

Gene (13:42):

Yep.

Moby (13:42):

And just comfort myself with the fact that it's relatively inexpensive and everyone else is doing it.

Lindsay (13:47):

And now it's been politicized. You've seen it where they say what Tucker Carlson said to you, which is you're trying to take away our meat. They're saying they're gonna come in and take our guns. They're gonna come in and take our, they're

Moby (13:59):

Gonna take our gas stoves, our

Lindsay (14:00):

Gas stoves, they're gonna take our gas cars. Yeah.

Gene (14:02):

And

Lindsay (14:03):

They're gonna take our burgers. So now I think people think driving trucks and buying guns and eating steaks is a political statement that feels almost religious to them. Yeah. I mean, I've seen banners. I'm from Texas. Mm-Hmm.

Gene (14:16):

<affirmative>,

Lindsay (14:16):

I've seen banners that literally have stakes on a confederate flag. Like it's a, it's a thing. Mm-Hmm.

Moby (14:22):

<affirmative>

Gene (14:22):

It, it's a form of entitlement, I think. And an abuse of power to, to assume we are entitled to abuse other animals. We're entitled to use more resources than the rest of the world could survive on. Right. If everybody ate like we do in this country, this planet couldn't support it. So there's this entitlement and this assumption that we deserve this for some reason, which I don't think we do. Uh, but I believe that going vegan is ultimately more about being empowered and feeling good about what you're doing and eating food that is nourishing. And it's really, uh, an approach towards more abundance as opposed to scarcity. But it's being framed as we're taking these things away. No, we're actually providing so much hope and potential for humans. And just because we've done something a certain way doesn't mean we should keep doing it. And we've done a lot of horrible things. And the factory farming industry is one of those horrible things that is still happening, but it's normalized and we're social animals. So as you're saying Moby, when everybody around us is doing it, when all the systems are in place to support it, to make hamburgers cheap and plant-based foods more expensive than they should be, this machinery is pushing it. So changes happen through personal choices, but it's hard in many cases for an individuals to make choices in a system where everything is pushing the other direction.

Moby (15:39):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

Gene (15:39):

So we need to, and subsidized and subsidized to the tune of billions of dollars a year. There's a study that looked at dairy industry income a couple years ago. They found that 73% of dairy industry income came from government programs.

Moby (15:52):

Wow.

Gene (15:52):

Completely unsustainable. And the dairy industry feels entitled to this money. Mm-Hmm.

Moby (15:58):

<affirmative>.

Gene (15:58):

And so what do we do with it? We now feed this stuff to kids in schools to continue marketing it. When we still can't have enough of it consumed in the us we export it. And when people aren't drinking cow's milk, we then coagulate it into cheese. So 10 pounds of milk equals one pound of cheese. So there's this consolidation of materials, uh, and it's just painfully inefficient.

Moby (16:19):

Or they dump it, they dump it in sewers, like Yeah. I, I was reading an article recently about the millions and millions of gallons of milk that farmers are paid to produce, but there isn't enough market for it. So now they're just dumping it in the sewer. It's insane. So our tax dollars, it's, it's so sad. We do want to, we love when we talk to people to really get a sense of who they are by a graphically, especially. 'cause your upbringing is so interesting. You were born in Los Angeles.

Gene (16:46):

Yes.

Moby (16:46):

And you grew up here during like the LA counterculture heyday. I mean, like,

Gene (16:52):

Yeah. I maybe, so I was born in 1962 and I grew up in the Hollywood Hills, and I went to conservative Catholic grammar school, and then I went to a Jesuit college prep high school. So in grammar school, I wasn't really exposed to very progressive ideas. And I was discouraged from thinking of progressive ideas. But growing up in the hills, I saw wild animals and I was in awe of them. I saw them being harmed by human activities, you know, at the same time Vietnam was happening. And I remember, you know, the 10 commandments, one of them being thou shalt not kill. And then we have this war going on and I'm going, okay, thou shalt not kill, but we're killing. I don't quite understand how those things fit. You know? So I really took some of these lessons, these basic lessons to heart. And so thou shalt not kill, do unto others.

Gene (17:45):

What we do to the least of these is really important. Those were all, to me, me, very important. And I also seeing animals harmed viscerally hurt me as a kid. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I remember one of my first memories was of a deer that was stuck in a chain link fence in a neighbor's yard and had to be killed. And that was very upsetting. Um, also a beautiful oak tree across the street from my parents' house was cut down so the house could put up a wall. And that just bothered me. So I was viscerally upset by the harm I saw humans causing. And I just ultimately didn't want to be part of it.

Moby (18:16):

So on a cultural level, growing up in LA in the late sixties into the seventies, I mean, this is the era of like the hippies going into the disco era, going into the Manson family, going into, I mean, everything, every movie, TV show is just obsessed with this period. Did you, were you at all a part of this? Were you going out to concerts or clubs or? I

Gene (18:41):

Was tangentially involved in, connected to it. So I used to spend a lot of time in Griffith Park running in the hills, being in nature, and hanging outside the Greek theater and listening to Peter Paul and Mary Pete Seeger <laugh>, uh, Joan Baez. So that was the kind of music that to me really resonated. But also, um, there, my, my family had a hotel in downtown Los Angeles where some of like the really maybe

Moby (19:07):

Family had a hotel.

Gene (19:08):

Yeah. Yeah. It was that family. That was the

Moby (19:10):

Business,

Gene (19:10):

The business. It was called the Park Plaza Hotel. And there were some That's fancy. Yes. It was the old Elks Building. Mm-Hmm.

Moby (19:16):

<affirmative>.

Gene (19:16):

And there's the Elks Lodge Riot of 79 <laugh>. And I was security at it <laugh> Oh my God. The Go-Go's played there and some other sort of punk bands at the time. And, uh, so I was around that. And then later on in the eighties, there was this nightclub at my dad's hotel. And, um, you know, people like Andy Warhol would go there. It was really kind of one of the spots in LA you know. And, uh, I, you know, when the French soccer team won the gold medal in the Olympics, they went there that night. Right. And I saw the game at the Rose Bowl, and I went to Mm-Hmm.

Moby (19:53):

<affirmative>

Gene (19:53):

To, uh, the nightclub. So I was, you know, I bartended and did like security and just was at those events. But I didn't really know much about kind of the, the, the club scene or the music scene at the time. I am sort of a hippie at heart. Mm-Hmm.

Moby (20:10):

<affirmative>.

Gene (20:10):

So listening to a lot of Neil Young and you know, this kind of like, you know, this sort of like anti, you know, this Peter Paul and Mary stuff, and like, this very cause related stuff was always kind of what resonated for me. And it was almost like a church because it was aligned with some of my deep values, you know, which is less judgmental than the kind of Catholic church stuff that I was around. So, so that for me was a really important and being in nature and in listening to these concepts of liberation Mm-Hmm.

Moby (20:43):

<affirmative>,

Gene (20:43):

You know, and in Catholic school, one of my teachers in high school was Greg Boyle, who started Homeboy Industries. Oh,

Moby (20:51):

Wow. Oh yeah.

Gene (20:52):

Yeah. So he and I are still in touch. And so this idea of liberation theology is something that, you know, resonated with me. So within,

Moby (21:01):

Is that, was that called, is it Vatican two? What was it? Vatican

Gene (21:04):

Two was when they sort of opened up the windows and let air in was the idea in the sixties. Mm-Hmm.

Moby (21:09):

<affirmative>.

Gene (21:09):

And that's when they started saying masses in English instead of in Latin when they actually turned the table around. So the priest was actually looking at the congregation instead of looking at the altar <laugh>. So the idea was to try to open it up and create more conversations and engage the, uh, the community. Um, now it's done so with more or less benefits in different areas. But I think with many things you have, again, diversity, you know, Catholicism is not a monolith, you know, you have, it's an institution and in many ways I think there's corruption there. But you also have individuals within Catholicism who I see as liberation activists. And that's what I resonate with. And that's kind of what I try to do as well, is, you know, this is really about recognizing that we share this planet Mm-Hmm.

Moby (21:58):

<affirmative> with

Gene (21:59):

Many others, human and non-human. Um, our actions have consequences. And how can we live in a way that is kind and ultimately good for all of us? And, um, a lot of my early Catholic stuff, again, caring about the least of these and sort of the story about Jesus, you know, being poor and, and working with those who had been mistreated and denigrated, uh, by those with power is key to what we do at Farm Sanctuary. I think it's key to, um, humanity really is empathizing, especially with those who are marginalized and labeled in negative ways. And I think when we denigrate others, we also, um, lose part of our empathy and our humanity. And this happens all the time with farm animals. And for example, being called a pig or being called a Turkey <laugh> is a way that one person will denigrate another person, but

Moby (22:58):

Inherent in that is, or even a chicken.

Gene (23:00):

Or a chicken, yeah. Inherently they're denigrating these animals who they don't understand. Right. And so when there's this lack of understanding, this lack of empathy, there are these sort of unkind statements made and these unkind judgments held that prevent people from being able to open their hearts and understand others. And to me, uh, it really is about recognizing we're all connected, basically. And empathy, uh, when somebody is harmed, we're all harmed, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So how do we live in a way? And that's an ideal. Obviously it's hard to achieve that, but, but having that kind of ideal and trying to live towards that is something that I try to do every day.

Moby (23:39):

So a couple of quick things. When you mentioned the Go-Go's as being part of a punk rock show, I just wanted, 'cause a lot of people might think the Go-Go's, but like Belinda Carlisle was part of the LA Punk rock scene. I have a book, it's about the, the club, The Masque, M-A-S-Q-U-E, and it's all the LA proto punk rock bands like X and The Germs. And there's Belinda Carlisle right in the middle. So like, even though people think of the Go-Go's as a pop group, she was like instrumental in the early LA punk rock scene as I think a lot of the other people in the Go-Go's were. So someone might be confused when you describe The Go-Go's in 1979 as being at a punk rock riot. But like no, they were, they started out as a kind of like how Debbie Harry did, like, started out in the punk rock world.

Gene (24:22):

And it actually was a riot because they're playing up on the second floor Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And all of a sudden the cops come in, in riot gear in a paddy wagon, and they went in, they were throwing people down the stairs. It's the Elks Lodge riot. You know, you can still see bits and pieces of it online, not video or anything, but there's, uh, there's some reporting about it. And so I was there and it was like kind of surprising. And my dad is very conservative and he's there, and he was thinking, those comps seem to be overreacting, <laugh>. I don't think I've ever seen him say that before. <laugh>, wow. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But it's also an example of where you have a mindset and an approach that doesn't conform with what is expected and how you're supposed to be. What's been really interesting doing this work is sometimes how ideas can be more dangerous in people's minds than even physical violence, because ideas can really be revolutionary. You know, there's these ag gag laws they're trying to pass to make it illegal to talk about factory farming. In the 1990s, there was the Animal Enterprise Protection Act that was passed in Washington and they labeled a number of extremist groups. We were one of them, you know, so labeled by the Justice Department. So there are sometimes these efforts to label those who have different ideas as, you know, dangerous. But, So for me, free speech is critically important. We be, need to be able to talk about issues in a full way and to have different ideas because, um, that's the only way we learn. You know, I think Benjamin Franklin said something like, if everybody thinks the same way, nobody is thinking.

Lindsay (25:57):

And

Gene (25:57):

Unfortunately, we're not really encouraged to think differently. We're not encouraged to challenge norms. And that's something that came out of the sixties, challenging the mainstream idea that, um, you know, America's the home of the free and, and brave and everything. And, and yes, that is true. Mm-Hmm. And we're also an international, you know, imperialist kind of nation, right? Mm-Hmm. That does a lot of bombing around the world. Mm-Hmm,

Moby (26:25):

That's true.

Gene (26:26):

Also, <laugh>.

Lindsay (26:27):

Okay. So we've gotten to, I just wanna keep the biography going. So you were, you were here in LA and then at some point you decide you wanna go to college schools,

Gene (26:39):

<laugh>,

Lindsay (26:40):

And you do that here?

Gene (26:42):

Yeah. Yeah. So I go to Loyola High School, which is a, an all boys Jesuit college prep, you know, so a lot of the kids from there go to like Harvard and places like that. And so I went to Valley College, which is a, a, a community college in the Valley. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I really liked it. And then I went to Cal State Northridge and got a sociology degree. And during my last year at Cal State Northridge, I figured I wanted to see something different than Southern California. 'cause this is where I grew up. So I

Moby (27:08):

Did it. And this was probably like around 83, 84? Yeah.

Gene (27:10):

About 84 mm-Hmm. <affirmative> 83 84. Yeah. And so I did this national exchange program to the University of Rhode Island in Kingston, Rhode Island. And while I was there, I saw, um, Carl Sagan speak at a thing. I saw Ralph Nader speak at a thing. I saw a debate between Abby Hoffman and Jerry Rubin about different ways to, so

Moby (27:30):

Abby Hoff Lindsay, and for people who were listening, so Abby Hoffman and Jerry Rubin were like the yuppies, they were performative, counterculture sort of hippies. But like, was it Jerry Rubin had a book called, it was called Steal This Book? Or was that,

Gene (27:45):

I think that was Abby Hoffman's. Abby Hoffman Steal this book. Yeah.

Moby (27:48):

They were the most counterculture. In fact, there was a movie made recently with Sasha Baron Cohen about the 68 Democratic

Gene (27:55):

Convention. Yeah. That

Moby (27:57):

Was

Gene (27:57):

Huge. The hippies were big there.

Moby (27:59):

Yeah. Abby Hoff and Jerry,

Lindsay (27:59):

I never heard yuppies before.

Moby (28:01):

They were the sort of almost like situationist performance art, hippies like radicals, but not necessarily preaching peace and love, but more preaching

Gene (28:12):

And entertaining in a way, entertaining,

Moby (28:14):

Like entertaining conflict and challenging power by being sort of like clowns, but also very serious. My mom and my aunts and uncles were all really into that. Like, I grew up seeing, like, you know, seeing their books on my mom's bookshelf. Wow.

Gene (28:30):

Amazing. I never saw those on my parents' bookshelves.

Moby (28:33):

Yeah.

Lindsay (28:33):

So,

Moby (28:33):

But I'm just, because I think,

Gene (28:35):

Like

Moby (28:35):

You and I would be very familiar with Abby Hoffman and Jerry Rubin, but even if you watch the movie with Sasha Baron Cohen, I forget what it was called. It came out a few years ago. It's really good. Yeah. About the 68 Democratic Convention, how they all got

Lindsay (28:47):

Arrested. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've heard that. Movie's great. I can't think of it now, but I'm honestly glad that you asked for clarification, because I'm very good at just nodding and being like, <laugh>. Sure. I'm sure everyone else knows who that is, but,

Moby (28:56):

But even if you watch that movie, you might not, because there's also, what's his name, um, Tom Hayden.

Gene (29:01):

Tom Hayden absolutely.

Moby (29:02):

Was part of them. And there's like the contrast. Tom Hayden ended up becoming a politician, but they're like, the movie's really about these different approaches to revolution. Mm-Hmm.

Lindsay (29:10):

<affirmative>,

Moby (29:10):

Like either sort of like violent revolution, peaceful revolution, challenging clownish revolution. Mm-Hmm.

Lindsay (29:18):

<affirmative>.

Gene (29:18):

Yeah.

Moby (29:18):

So, yes, sorry. So Abby Hoffman, Jerry Rubin, and

Gene (29:21):

Jerry in the 1980s, Jerry Rubin was working on Wall Street. Yeah.

Moby (29:25):

He became a,

Gene (29:25):

Trying to change things from the inside. Abby Hoffman was still an outside agitator. And their conversation, their, you know, discussion that I saw in college was about what's the more effective approach. I went in kind of rooting for Abby Hoffman and came out thinking, well, Jerry Rubin made some good points. So I'm a both. And I think you need the outside, you know, challenging of norms, but you, on the inside there's things you can do as well. But I think it's important to recognize that if you're on the inside, you can also start losing perspective on things. And if you're on the outside, you also might also lose perspective on what's, what, what is possible. So both are important, but for me, college in Rhode Island was really significant because I started getting to know activists. I started going to like, take back the night marches. I started learning more about environmental issues. I learned about the inefficiency of animal agriculture. And, and before this, when I was in grammar school, my grandmother told me about veal. So I, I, when I heard about how veal calves are raised, I said, I'm never eating veal. So that happened early on. But in college is when I really became activated, I would say. And, um, then

Moby (30:32):

Is this in Providence or where? This

Gene (30:34):

Is in Kingston, Rhode Island. Okay. Which is in south of Providence. And then for the second half of my year, I went to Washington DC and did an internship at US Public Interest Research Group, which was one of the Ralph Nader organizations. So I was there for half of the,

Moby (30:48):

I I, you know, it's funny, just as little aside, I very briefly worked for one of the RERG public Interest research, Uhhuh <affirmative>, meaning they would drop me off in a neighborhood and I would walk around the neighborhood trying to get people to donate money

Gene (31:00):

Canvasing. I did that too.

Moby (31:02):

I was, I was a canvasser probably right around that same time. It was such a miserable job. And you're basically were sent out with this idea. 'cause I was like sleeping on my mom's couch. I was a college dropout. I was like, I wanna do some interesting job. So I heard about this, and they would send you out and they'd say, okay, here's what you look for a Volvo.

Gene (31:21):

Yep. If

Moby (31:21):

There's a Volvo in the driveway, you go up and you knock on the door. If there's

Lindsay (31:25):

Why a Volvo? Because

Moby (31:27):

That means they're progressive. Oh my. And you could tell lot

Gene (31:28):

By the who's in the house by the car they had in front. And

Moby (31:31):

They were like, basically if there's like a Greenpeace sticker or a No Nukes sticker, they're like, you're in. Like, that's, but it's, the whole thing was, I don't know what your experience was. I did it very briefly, but it felt very mercenary. Like, it, it wasn't really about policy. It wasn't really about change. It was just about like getting us unpaid workers to go out and raise enough money. And I'm sorry, I'm not maligning the PERG world. Yeah. But my, that was my experience where they were just like, no discussion about ideas or ideology or policy. It was, are you generating enough money to keep the lights on?

Gene (32:04):

Yeah, no, that's true. It was. And I did, I did some research at PERG looking at lobbying money by the chemical companies to prevent environmental regulations from going into place and things like that. But I also did canvassing where you're going door to door and it takes a lot of nerve to knock on somebody's door. They open the door and you ask 'em for money. Yeah. So I did that, uh, in DC but I also hitchhiked around the country <laugh>. And did this because

Moby (32:29):

You were perhaps of a hippie at this point.

Gene (32:31):

Oh, I'm always, I'm still a hippie, you know, I don't have the hair for it anymore. But

Lindsay (32:34):

You're hitchhiking, you're standing on the road with your thumb out. Yeah.

Gene (32:38):

Yeah.

Lindsay (32:38):

And people would come pick you up. And were you ever like, I could get stabbed. Yeah.

Gene (32:42):

There were a couple cars that did not get

Moby (32:43):

Lins, why are you such a square? That's just how we did it back then. <laugh>.

Lindsay (32:48):

I mean, you're not the first person I've heard of recently that was politically active or artistically active in that timeframe, who was like, oh yeah, you just hitchhiked. Yeah. It

Moby (32:57):

Was

Lindsay (32:57):

Normal.

Gene (32:57):

Yeah.

Lindsay (32:58):

Now it's like, yeah, if you want, it's like basically suicide.

Gene (33:01):

It can be, it can be now. But with, with, there were cars I did not get in, you know, but it was, it was cheap transports. You could get different, different places.

Moby (33:09):

It was also, yeah, in the seventies and the eighties, like almost everywhere you went, especially OnRamps to interstates, there were always hippies with their thumbs out. And my mom and my aunts and uncles being hippies, we picked up everybody. We might've even picked, well, granted you were a little younger, so like In the seventies, like, wow, we picked up so many people. I think my mom might've dated some of them.

Gene (33:29):

Amazing. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it was, it was interesting to be on the road. And, and, and I also worked at Greenpeace for a little while and also canvassed for Greenpeace. So that was how I kind of became comfortable challenging and, and pushing myself and going up to doors and asking for money and talking about issues was, was really good training. It was not easy, but it was good training. And you know, still today we're doing similar work where we're trying to challenge people, but doing it in a way that doesn't turn them off.

Moby (34:00):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

Gene (34:00):

And that's the constant struggle is how do you reach people with these realities, realities that many times they're part of contributing to, in a negative way, to get them to want to hear it and able to hear it. And that is, it's an ongoing challenge. Ongoing challenge.

Moby (34:15):

And, and the balance. Maintaining principles, maintaining integrity, maintaining effectiveness while remaining viable. I mean, as we've seen on so many 501c 3s, so many non-profits end up compromising profoundly because they're like, oh, we don't want to offend our donors. Mm-Hmm. We don't wanna offend, I mean, like, I don't wanna get in trouble, but the number envi of environmental organizations who take money from non-environmental corporations. And as a result, like their messaging is so watered down. Yes.

Gene (34:47):

How

Moby (34:48):

Do you maintain your principles when you're taking money from the enemy?

Gene (34:52):

It's sort of back to that Jerry Rubin's in the machine, you know, versus Abby Hoffen outside agitating. And so you've gotta be very careful. Yeah. You know, and I think there's a very strong desire on the part of the industry to greenwash their practices. And if they get an environmental group to endorse them, that's golden. Yeah.

Lindsay (35:09):

Yeah.

Gene (35:10):

So that is certainly a temptation. It's happen. I mean,

Moby (35:12):

Greenwash or pink wash, I mean like the number of health organizations Yeah. Who take money from big ag corporations or chemical companies. And so as a result, they're unwilling to challenge the environmental things that are actually harming people. But I think that biographically we're getting to a big

Lindsay (35:30):

Moment. We're in what, like 1984 by

Moby (35:32):

Now? 84 ish. 84

Gene (35:33):

Ish. Yeah.

Moby (35:34):

Okay. So at what point did you become, and I, there's a competitive aspect to this as well, <laugh>, at what point did you become vegetarian? And then when was the full on vegan commitment?

Gene (35:43):

It was all in 1985. So,

Moby (35:45):

Dammit! <laugh>. I mean, I'm thrilled for you because I went vegetarian in 84, but I didn't go vegan until 1987. Well,

Gene (35:53):

You beat me on the vegetarian, but not on the vegan side.

Moby (35:56):

Cold comfort <laugh>. So basically, this is something because I, I don't, I'm sure that there are people in the world who've been vegan longer than me. But at present, you're the only person I know who's been vegan longer than I have. And that's both great. But still, I'm like a little bit of resentment there. And the fact that you're so fit that you run to the top of the Hollywood sign in the middle of the summer, like,

Gene (36:22):

Yeah, I'm not running it as

Moby (36:23):

Much these days. It's great.

Lindsay (36:24):

It's because of the veganism. I think that you probably can,

Moby (36:26):

But it's great that you are a hero of mine and a profound activist and a remarkable force for good. Otherwise I'd be just so filled with resentment.

Lindsay (36:35):

<laugh>. So let me ask, because I know why Moby stopped eating meat, but why did you, like, what was the thing that kind of pushed you over the edge?

Moby (36:44):

Set the scene for us. It's 1985, you become a vegetarian vegan. What was the inciting experience?

Gene (36:51):

It was a process of learning more about the factory farming industry. So I learned about veal when I was in grammar school. I'm not eating veal. Um, and then when I'm starting to work with pers and with Greenpeace, I started meeting lots of activists. And so I started learning much more about factory farming. And then when I ultimately learned that I could live well without eating animal products, I went vegan. So, but I was vegetarian a little bit before that, but then vegan within a couple of months. And, um, it all just came together and it was all part of the same initial idea of not participating in causing harm needlessly, you know? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and learning that it was possible then it was a slam dunk. It made all the sense in the world. But I just learned a lot that year. About, were,

Moby (37:36):

Were there any specific books or resource? Like for me, Diet For a New America was a big one. Mm-Hmm.

Gene (37:41):

<affirmative> the by

Moby (37:42):

John Robbins. Yeah. Which is interesting. Just to qualify Lindsay, I don't know if you know Diet for a New America, but

Lindsay (37:46):

I do,

Moby (37:47):

Um, John Robbins was the heir to the Baskin Robbins fortune.

Lindsay (37:49):

Okay. I did not know that. Yeah.

Moby (37:51):

And he kind of rejected his Baskin Robbins fortune. And he wrote Diet for a New America about the consequences of animal agriculture

Gene (37:58):

Diet for A Small Planet was, you know, uh, Francis Moore Lappé. That was important because it talked about how inefficient, uh, animal agriculture was. That was something that really had an effect on me. You know, the cruelty, the inefficiency, and then the viability of living on plant foods instead of animal foods. Those things together.

Moby (38:15):

Did you ever have, okay, here's an obscure slightly seventies hippie reference. Did you have a copy of Laurel's Kitchen?

Gene (38:23):

I don't think I did. There was that, the cookbook for People Who Love Animals. Remember that one? I think it might've been the Gentle World People that made that?

Moby (38:30):

Right. And then there was Moosewood Mo,

Gene (38:31):

Woosewood. Yes. Yes.

Moby (38:32):

And the Tassajara Bread Book. I'm just thinking of like, oh yeah. But Laurel,

Lindsay (38:36):

All of like the early seventies vegan,

Gene (38:38):

The Farm Vegetarian Cookbook from the farm in Tennessee. They did the tofu cookery. Remember those ones? Do you remember the soyarella scandal? What? It was this soyarella. It was like we were always looking for good cheese and it was hard to find. Yeah.

Moby (38:50):

Like fake cheese in the eighties. Ugh. It was bad. It was like building materials that didn't melt It congealed, but you'd get it. Anyway, the only thing that was good was vegan Parmesan. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> you could get. 'cause it was just like flakes. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I remember getting like

Lindsay (39:08):

Nutritional yeast and like potato basically

Moby (39:10):

That Yeah. I remember discovering vegan Parmesan. But I do wanna like have a little moment where I revisit Laurel's Kitchen because Lindsay, I think you, I'm gonna go on one of these Ex Libris things and get you a copy of Laurel's Kitchen. There were these women who, there's this picture of them wearing like head scarves and like a hippie kitchen with like cat sleeping on the table and like ferns in the corner. And it was basically, it taught me how to cook. 'cause it was Wow. They had complicated things like how to make bread, how to make soy milk, how to make complicated stuff. But it was also how to cook brown rice. Hmm. How to cook oats, how to do basic stuff. And I'm, I have such a debt of gratitude to Laurel's Kitchen for teaching me the basics of cooking.

Gene (39:54):

There was this cheese from the Farm vegetarian cookbook that was like nutritional yeast, and it was like great on nachos. That was one of our Go-tos back in those days. But Laurel's Kitchen, I, I, it sounds familiar, but I didn't have a deep connection to it.

Moby (40:07):

I'm, I'm surprised 'cause as, as you come from the hippie world, like it, to me it was like a quintessential hippie health. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> like, like I feel like every health food store I went into had like their little brown copy of Laurel's Kitchen next to MooseWood.

Gene (40:19):

I'm totally spiritually hippie <laugh>,

Moby (40:21):

But

Gene (40:22):

I also kind of structurally and the communities I was around weren't always hippie. Right? Yeah. So I, but I resonate with the, the kind of ethics of it and the hopefulness of it. The challenging of things that are wrong and the whole peace, love. Right. All that stuff. That's the kind of stuff that really hits me in the core. And

Moby (40:41):

What was really interesting in the early to mid eighties, health food stores, 'cause health food stores across the board had been opened by hippies. Like Oh yeah. Every health food store was owned by a hippie. They smelled like hippies. You know, it was like this cross between like patchouli and nutritional yeast. But by the mid eighties, most of the people working at the health food stores I went to were punk rockers.

Gene (41:03):

Mm. Interesting. Interesting. The evolution, right?

Moby (41:05):

Yeah. So it was this really interesting thing, like when we made punk rock vegan movie, this recurring theme was the store Prana on First Avenue in New York. Mm-Hmm. And it was run by this old hippie, but he pretty much only hired like homeless punk rock kids to work there. Wow. So all of these legendary musicians either worked there or shopped there. But that contrast of like punk rockers, people with like tattoos and shaved heads working in hippie stores, like selling oat groats and buckwheat and nutritionist

Gene (41:37):

All challenging the the mainstream. Yeah. All challenging what's supposed to be normal.

Lindsay (41:41):

When I hear you guys talking about this, I'm like, you deserve extra super metals for going vegan back when it was so challenging because when I went vegan in 2005, even then there was a health food store that had tons of fake meat. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and veggie burgers. Ev like, it was very easy for me to just replace what I'd already been doing even in 2005. And now it's even easier. I can have the most delicious vegan pizza I've ever had here in 25 minutes. Amazing.

Moby (42:07):

But like, once you discovered tempeh Oh yeah. And once you discovered seitan, and once you discovered tofu, 'cause like I didn't know what these things were. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And then like, you, you would go to the health food store and like, you'd be looking around and they're like, you'd nervously ask the person, like see Itin, what's see it. And they're like, oh, it's wheat gluten. And it's amazing and bulletproof. Like you can't screw up cooking seitan. Yeah. The, the beautiful simplicity of like a brown rice stir fry with like seitan and broccoli and things like,

Gene (42:42):

I, I also ate a lot of, uh, these veggie hotdog from Loma Linda back in that day because the way we funded Farm Sanctuary for the first three years was selling vegan hotdog and Grateful Dead shows. We're, we're not there yet. We're

Moby (42:54):

Still, we're still moving. We're getting

Lindsay (42:55):

Wait, no. I'm so excited about that part. <laugh>. I wanna fast forward, but I can't, we

Gene (42:59):

Can't, we can't. We're talking about food and what was available back then that

Moby (43:01):

Reminded me of eighties. 1985. You went vegetarian. Yeah,

Gene (43:06):

Vegan. Vegan.

Lindsay (43:06):

You're in DC

Gene (43:08):

I am. Are you back? Yes. I'm traveling. I am hitchhiking around the country. I'm in Chicago. I'm in New Jersey. I'm in Florida, I'm in Colorado. And then I'm back in California to finish up my bachelor's degree in sociology from Cal State Northridge at the end of 1985. And then in early 1986, I go back east and start doing more activism. And we co-found Farm Sanctuary, me and my ex-wife in 1986 in April of 1986. So we're now in Wilmington, Delaware, where an activist just let us use his house. And so we're living in a row house in Wilmington, Delaware, uh, selling veggie dogs at Grateful Dead shows. Uh, and beginning to organize and raise awareness and investigate factory farms. We actually started out, uh, by trying to expose the cruelty of animal agriculture by going into stockyards and farms and slaughterhouses to document conditions. And

Lindsay (44:06):

Were you, were you sneaking in there?

Gene (44:08):

We were sneaking in there. We were not welcome. We were not,

Moby (44:11):

We

Gene (44:11):

Were sometimes when it was not light out.

Lindsay (44:14):

Yeah.

Moby (44:14):

Ooh. And we were

Lindsay (44:15):

Flashlights masks,

Moby (44:16):

Or not

Gene (44:16):

Even flashlights, you know, just

Lindsay (44:18):

Maybe

Gene (44:18):

The, the moon, all these things.

Moby (44:20):

Wow.

Lindsay (44:20):

All these

Gene (44:20):

Factors. But we would just go in, uh, document conditions and we would sometimes find living animals literally on piles of dead animals or living animals literally in trash cans.

Lindsay (44:31):

Ugh.

Gene (44:31):

And that is how the sanctuaries began. And

Lindsay (44:34):

It's from going into these stockyards and you were bringing animals back out.

Gene (44:37):

That's right. That's right.

Moby (44:39):

And the first, I don't wanna tell your story, but can you tell us about Hilda?

Gene (44:42):

Yes.

Moby (44:43):

Do you know about Hilda?

Lindsay (44:44):

I've heard tale of Hilda <laugh>, but I'd love to hear it direct from you.

Gene (44:47):

Yes. So we used to spend a lot of time at Lancaster Stockyards in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, which was the largest stockyard east of Chicago at the time. And we would document conditions inside the place. And, and this is where animals would be brought from all over the country to be sold. So there is a series of holding pins and alleyways and auction rings where animals would come in, be herded through the facility, go to the auction, be herded outta the facility, and taken off to slaughter or to another farm. So they're coming from all over the country. And because transit is so difficult, many of these animals would die. And behind the stockyard was the dead pile. So one day we were at the dead pile, uh, and there were dead cows, dead pigs, dead sheep. Uh, and as we got closer and I took a picture, we saw one of the sheep on this dead pile lifted her head. And so, you know, it was a hot August day. The maggots were so thick you could hear them buzzing. Oh.

Lindsay (45:42):

We

Gene (45:43):

Thought she would have to be euthanized. We brought her to the veterinarian and as he started examining her, she stood up

Lindsay (45:50):

Stop.

Gene (45:50):

Yeah. After about like within 20 minutes. And, um, she probably passed out from heat exhaustion 'cause it was like in August. And she came on a truck from upstate New York with hundreds of other sheep. It was hot. She probably passed out. And so what the trucker likely did is drove around back when she didn't walk off into the stockyard and unloaded her on the dead pile. There were some dead sheep there too. So some other sheep died, I think, on the trip. And they just, she threw all the, the trucker threw all the bodies out of the dead pile. And uh, one of them was Hilda and it rained the night before. So it's likely that this rain may have helped her survive. 'cause she was probably, it

Lindsay (46:33):

Cooled her down, cooled

Gene (46:34):

Her down because she had a lot of wool. It was in the middle of the summer. She was covered in manure it. Um, but yeah, she stood up and she Wow. Lived with us for more than 10 years.

Lindsay (46:43):

More than 10 years.

Gene (46:44):

More than 10 years. She's now buried at our farm in upstate New York.

Moby (46:48):

In Watkins Glen. Right. In

Gene (46:49):

Watkins Glen. Yeah.

Lindsay (46:50):

She's like patron saint.

Gene (46:51):

She is farm. She really is. She really is.

Moby (46:54):

It's amazing that that that animal, I don't know what to call 'em, Sherpas? Animal guides? Animal. Like, because we were talking about experiences we've had with animals. Mm-Hmm. Which

Gene (47:05):

Is

Moby (47:05):

Have been remarkable. And one of mine was at Farm Sanctuary in Acton. And it was, I believe Bruno the cow.

Gene (47:14):

It was

Moby (47:14):

Either Bruno or Bruno's friend, I don't remember their name. Like, 'cause there were two cows. There was one who was big giant black cow and then a more sort of blonde cow. Yeah. And I had an epiphany, this was when I first moved to la I was at Farm Sanctuary in Acton and I was playing with one of the cows. And all of a sudden this beautiful cow wanted to show me its scratcher. You know, like those, the spinning things that cows love that enabled them to scratch themselves. Yeah.

Gene (47:47):

And

Moby (47:47):

It was showing me its scratcher, <laugh>. And it was so proud that it had a scratcher. And it like, so kept looking at me as it was scratching itself with the scratcher, looking for this connection. Like it was show and tell for the cow. Wow.

Gene (48:02):

Wow. Just

Lindsay (48:02):

Like bagel, how she likes bagels to show her scrunchies.

Moby (48:05):

And I had this moment where, because I realized most of my experience with non canine feline animals is academic, you know, is books, is movies, is social media. And I was looking at this beautiful cow, its farm sanctuary. And I realized, oh, he's an individual. And I know that's self-evident. But the truth of it, and the fact that every animal is an individual, there are many remarkable things about farm sanctuaries, animal sanctuaries in general. But it's that being able to show people, animals can be statistics, animals can be information, animals can be photographs, videos, but ultimately animals are sentient individuals. Yes. And to be reminded of that corporeally in person is so profound.

Gene (48:56):

It is. It is. They're flesh and blood. Like us. We are connected. Yeah. And it's the lived experience, the shared earth we are on together. Right. And, and just having that connection is magical. And it happens at sanctuaries. And when animals are at sanctuaries, they can be themselves. They're not afraid, uh, of people anymore. Or some of them don't get over their traumas. But sheep,

Moby (49:20):

Sheep in particular, sheep, sheep tend to be a little, like

Gene (49:22):

Sheep tend to be sheepish. Right? Yeah. A little skittish. Generally speaking. Hilda for instance, was never really very outgoing, but we do have some sheep who are very comfortable with people. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and in fact love to be pet by people. And if you stop petting them, they'll paw at you like a cat or a dog. Aw. So it really depends on the individuals, but there are generalizations. Certain animals tend to be a certain way and others another way. Um, but when they're at the sanctuary, they're in a safe place so they can be themselves and they're not afraid to be around people as much. Or, or maybe even not at all, depending on who they are and what their experience has been. But yeah, Hilda was always very shy, but she had a good friend named Jelly Bean who was much more outgoing.

Lindsay (50:04):

<laugh> Jelly Bean. A Jelly Bean. That kind of makes sense.

Moby (50:07):

Yeah. <laugh>,

Lindsay (50:07):

I've never been a non outgoing Jelly Bean

Moby (50:10):

<laugh>.

Lindsay (50:10):

So I'm so curious about what the experience has been like for you opening this sanctuary farm sanctuary and seeing people's response like Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> being there and be in real time watching people change or not change. I'm just very curious about what that kind of like bird's eye view that you get Yeah. What that might be like.

Gene (50:30):

Well, for us, the rescue work was part of, uh, healing not only for animals, but for ourselves. Because going in and seeing this over and over is very hard. Mm-Hmm.

Lindsay (50:40):

<affirmative>.

Gene (50:40):

Um, and so being able to rescue and watch animals heal, you know, would heal us and provide hope and something positive outta that horrible scenario, uh, which is for sanctuary is kind of a risk because we want to keep rescuing, but we can't <laugh>. So that's, you know, ethically speaking, we have to rescue them all and we can't. So this is something sanctuaries always struggle with. Um, but for me it's just beautiful to see healing happen for these non-human animals, but then also for humans who go and spend time with these other animals. And sometimes people break down and cry because they're so affected.

Lindsay (51:16):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>,

Gene (51:16):

Uh, to get to know a Turkey, for instance, and to know how they have regarded turkeys and how they have disrespected and, you know, just the normalcy of eating their flesh. Right. And so people have really had serious, um, reactions to being at the sanctuary and interacting with these individuals. Um, and different people have different experiences, right? Some people go through and don't have that kind of a reaction. So it really varies person to person. It might also vary day to day situation to situation. Some days certain people much might be much more open than than other days. So there's a lot of situations and it's, a lot of it is context. And the animals also on a particular day might be more outgoing than not. Right? Or maybe something just happened that made them particularly, you know, interested in meeting somebody else. So there's a lot of variables that are very hard to to know. Uh, but it's something we're actually trying to do more to understand At Farm Sanctuary. We've started this animal sentience research with animals. And one of the things I feel best about with regard to that is the animals are willing participants. They're co-collaborators, co-creators. Mm-Hmm.

Lindsay (52:32):

<affirmative> of

Gene (52:32):

The work, you know? 'cause so often with research, you know, human beings impose ourselves on others and we feel entitled to do this. And we think that they are there for us to use however we want. But our research protocols require that the animals are willing participants and have agency and decide to be part of this process if they want. So, so we're trying to understand more about who these individuals are, uh, and to do it in a more sort of intentional way. Uh, that is honoring of the fact that they have their own lives and their own feelings and their own desires and their own. We want them to have their own agency.

Moby (53:20):

Okay. So that was part one of our fascinating, wonderful, engaging, inspiring conversation with Gene Baur. And are, are we gonna play the second half of that next week?

Lindsay (53:31):

Week after,

Moby (53:32):

Week after. Okay. So, so two weeks from today, the second part of our conversation with Gene Baur, I was gonna say will be aired, but it's not air anymore.

Lindsay (53:41):

Boned <laugh>

Moby (53:43):

<laugh>. So, yeah. So part two of the interview with Gene Baur will be aired, uh, will be phoned, will be streamed in two weeks.

Lindsay (53:52):

Yep. And then the week after that, we have a real surprise for you. So, but

Moby (53:56):

You're looking at me, you're saying a surprise for me or a surprise for the people who are listening. For the people who are listening, yes. A surprise for the people.

Lindsay (54:02):

But I might also surprise you with something

Moby (54:04):

Uh oh. Uh, an obstacle course for bagel. Yeah. That, that, that built built on the roof of my house.

Lindsay (54:10):

Yes.

Moby (54:11):

<laugh>. Okay. So two weeks from now, we'll be back with Gene Baur for part two of our conversation, uh, here on Moby Pod in November from my 36 year vegan anniversary.

Lindsay (54:22):

Before we sign off, I just wanna say thank you to Jonathan Nesvadba, who edits this podcast like a boss. And I wanna thank Human Content for getting this podcast out into the world. See you in two weeks.