-- (00:00):

<silence>

Moby (00:09):

Hi, Lindsay.

Lindsay (00:10):

Hi Moby.

Moby (00:11):

Hi bagel.

Bagel (00:11):

Hey Moby.

New Speaker (00:12):

So welcome to another episode of Moby Pod, and today we have part two of our wonderful interview with Gene Baur, who is the founder of Farm Sanctuary.

Lindsay (00:22):

He's so inspiring, and I love that we get to spend multiple weeks with the passionate, intelligent dreamboat that is Gene Baur.

Moby (00:32):

Even if I'm still processing a little bit of my resentment around the fact that he's been vegan longer than I have, should I not even admit my resentment? 'cause it's not real. I'm just trying to be funny <laugh>. But if I did have resentment, he's been vegan longer than I have. He still has a full head of hair. And for recreational fun, he jogs to the top of mountains.

Lindsay (00:56):

Yeah, it's very, very impressive. He really sets the bar high for human beings, and I'm glad that he exists because that bar should be

Moby (01:06):

High. And so, before we jump back into our interview with Gene Baur, I wanted to mention that a week from today, we're going to have a very special Moby Pod episode, because it will be my 36th year vegan anniversary, the actual date. 'cause I went vegan on Thanksgiving 36 years ago. So the Friday after Thanksgiving, we'll be having this special episode where we will try to tell my vegan journey in six year increments also reflected by songs or music that I was working on during those six year increments. Did that make sense? Am I making any sense? Well,

Lindsay (01:47):

It's a journey through time, through stories of music and veganism and cultural moments through songs that you made that you love. Yeah.

Moby (01:58):

The day after Thanksgiving, we will have that episode of Moby Pod. But for now, let's get back to our wonderful conversation with Gene Baur. Ooh,

Lindsay (02:07):

Gene,

Moby (02:19):

I want to keep bringing us back to linear history. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So where was the first farm sanctuary?

Gene (02:25):

The first thing was actually in our backyard in Wilmington, Delaware. Okay. It was a small backyard. So our adopt a farm animal program began very early. So we would place animals in homes or in foster homes. And then part of what we did too was we did catering to earn some income and we needed a bunch of tofu. And the co-op in Newark didn't have it. So I went to the tofu farm in Pennsylvania and Warren had a few extra acres and he let us use some of his acres. So we lived in a school bus on the tofu farm from like 87 to 89.

Lindsay (02:57):

That's a long time to live on a bus, on a tofu farm.

Moby (02:59):

You lived in a school bus <laugh>

Gene (03:00):

In a school bus on a tofu farm. That's right.

Moby (03:02):

That sounds both hot and cold

Gene (03:04):

<laugh>. It was, you know, it had its moments, you know, uh, we had a Woodburn stove in it for the winters and you know, there was not a toilet, so we had trees. Um, but we also had the office in Wilmington, Delaware in the farm out in Pennsylvania. So we were, the showers were down in at the office, and then we lived basically at the farm. There was also a lake there, so in the summers we could swim in the Lake <laugh>, which was nice. But it was, uh, it was, you know, pretty, you know, up by the bootstraps, grassroots mom and pop all volunteer organization. You know, the first year our budget was like $7,000.

Moby (03:40):

And was it called Farm Sanctuary? It

Gene (03:42):

Was. Okay. We called it Farm Sanctuary from the beginning. And so we lived in a school bus on a tofu farm, uh, continued doing our investigations.

Moby (03:49):

So you say a tofu farm. Some people who are not familiar with tofu might think that tofu is

Gene (03:56):

Frozen blocks on stock. Yeah.

Moby (03:58):

Like I can just

Lindsay (03:59):

Imagine that would be convenient.

Moby (04:00):

I'm trying to imagine what sort of like Dr. Seuss style plant with like a tofu plant. Yeah. So I'm assuming it's a

Gene (04:09):

Former dairy and they would make soy milk and use that soy milk to make tofu coagulated into the tofu. Okay.

Lindsay (04:16):

Soy milk. Okay. I did not know that is how tofu was made, but it Oh, really? I didn't know it was made the same way cheese is made. I thought it was, you're doing something different with the, the original bean? No,

Gene (04:26):

No, it's, no,

Lindsay (04:26):

You're making it out of this out of soy milk.

Gene (04:28):

Milk, yeah. Yeah.

Lindsay (04:29):

Whoa. Okay. <laugh>. Yeah. I didn't know. I am learning something very now.

Gene (04:34):

And they had some, they had some vegetables there. They grew on the farm. Mm-Hmm. But it was a former dairy, so the dairy equipment could be used for, you know, soy milk instead of cows milk. And so that was, I call it to the tofu farm, but I guess it wasn't actually a tofu farm. No, I

Moby (04:46):

Like, I like the idea of a tofu love too farm. Like I imagine all these little like soy cows running around and like the elves come out and milk the soy cows to, and the, and the soy cows are happy and well adjusted. Yes. Yeah. So I'm just gonna live in my little fantasy world of the tofu farm. Of the tofu farm. So

Gene (05:05):

We, we lived there for a couple years until 1989, but we needed more space. We only had a couple of acres there. And so I started looking in agricultural journals, uh, including Lancaster Farming. 'cause I wanted to understand agribusiness and the mindset of it. So I was reading those for that reason. Anyway. But Lancaster Farming had this large real estate section with lots of farms for stale in upstate New York, especially in the Finger Lakes region. And one of the listings talked about 175 acre farm with a seven bedroom house, barns, tractors, and equipment. They were asking 110,000. And so that caught our eye. We went up, checked it out, checked out some other farms. We loved it. Although it was a mess. The house was a mess. The farm was a mess. Uh, but we offered 95 and got it for a hundred. We did a down payment of, we did a walk for farm animals to get a down payment of, of $25,000. And then we took out a loan for $75,000. And that's what brought us to Watkins Glen at the end of 1989. And we then did a lot of work starting in October, fixing the place up. And by the summer we were able to bring the animals up from Pennsylvania to Watkins Glen. So in the summer of 1990 is when we kind of opened our Wow. New York place.

Moby (06:19):

Wow. To contextualize it a little bit. I've never been to Watkins Glen. Is it near Ithaca?

Gene (06:24):

It's near Ithaca, yes.

Moby (06:25):

Okay. In terms of distance, I believe this was going way back, our friend Miyun Park.

Gene (06:32):

Oh yeah.

Moby (06:33):

Was driving up there with Peter Singer, unless I'm mistaken. I feel like, like, because she told me how remarkable this was. She's like, I'm going to Farm Sanctuary. I'm going to Watkins Glen with Peter Singer. Oh.

Gene (06:42):

He might've spoken at one of our events up there, actually. Yeah.

Moby (06:45):

Yeah. So Peter Singer That's right. Is the godfather of animal rights. He wrote Animal Liberation. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and he's still very, very active, you know, Australian philosopher from Princeton. Yep. Uh, but she told me, I was like, oh, Watkins Glen, like, how long a drive is it? And she said, well, it's about nine hours <laugh>, it's far. Our friend Jo-Anne MacArthur, she goes there all the time. Yes. I guess it also gets very cold in the winter. So the reason I mention this, nine hours from civilization apart from Ithaca, I guess. Yeah. And it's very cold. So it, what an interesting, like I can understand what you're describing, like it's like this farmland that's available that has equipment, but what a, what a interesting location. Like when you would look at the world and you would say there's this entire United States where we could buy land anywhere. Why there? Well,

Gene (07:36):

We were in Pennsylvania at the time, so Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> New York, just north of it wasn't that far. So from Washington, DC it's about six hours, so it's not nine, but depending on where they're coming from, it might have been from New York City. It's probably also about six. So it's pretty far.

Moby (07:50):

Okay. Maybe she said six. I'm just dyslexic and turned six to nine. Okay. In any case, yeah. It's, it's six hours is definitely like six hours is

Gene (07:57):

Still a, a drive. It's a hike. Yeah. It's a hike. It's a hike. And when we saw the land, it was just beautiful. And there's also a lot of water up there, which is nice. There's forests, there's lakes, waterfalls, there's a lot of wineries up there. Um, and it just kind of had a feel of up and coming, you know, that there's a lot of potential here. Uh, there's a lot of dairies that were going out of business. Small dairies sort of suffering. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, uh, and closing. And so that is one of the reasons that there's a lot of farmland available up there. And, um, the other thing about that area that I really like is its history in the abolition movement. You know, Frederick Douglass spent a lot of time up in Rochester, uh, Harriett Tubman, uh, retired in Auburn, New York. Uh, so there was a lot of underground railroad activity going up through that part of New York State. And the farm that we lived on, the tofu farm in Pennsylvania was also part of the Underground Railroad. Oh, wow. Uh, you know, there, Pennsylvania's got a very strong Quaker, uh, history. And the Quakers were very much connected to the abolitionist movement. And so that's another thing about Western New York. Uh, it's also been called the Burned-Over District because it's a place where a lot of people go for religious revival and religious, uh, fervor. Uh, and, um, it's actually where the, and John Smith found, apparently those tablets had started the

Moby (09:26):

Oh, in Palmyra, right.

Gene (09:27):

I think Palmyra near Penan or something like this. Yeah. And, uh, Brigham Young, you did preach and write next door to where we are, you know, so Whoa. So there was that whole thing going on, but there were other end of times kinds of prophets up there talking about how the earth is ending. And so there was a lot of energy up there towards other ideas that were not mainstream ideas. Just

Moby (09:48):

Be clear, when I was questioning why Watkins Glen, I wasn't saying it's a bad choice. I've just always been fascinated. Like, when Miyun told me it was six hours away. Yeah. Dyslexia, nine hours away from New York. I was like, that's very far. And granted, I've, have you ever been to the Finger Lakes district, Lindsay?

Lindsay (10:07):

I've not, but I've read a lot of books that are set there. <laugh>,

Moby (10:11):

I've always want like, I mean, Ithaca, some friends went to Cornell. That's in Ithaca, right? Yes, it is. Um, and I, the pictures, it looks amazing and I hate, hate to travel, but now I want to, I want to go this, I

Lindsay (10:21):

Want to go there really bad

Gene (10:22):

Waterfalls. Gorgeous. Amazing. I had

Moby (10:24):

A T-shirt that I got in, in a Goodwill that said, Ithaca is gorgeous. Gorgeous. Yes. Get it. It it's upon Lindsay gorgeous.

Gene (10:31):

But Watkins Glen is also known for it's gorge, the Glen Gorge, which is a state park. And it's also really beautiful. Okay. And

Moby (10:38):

So now I want to, I

Gene (10:39):

You gotta come visit.

Moby (10:40):

I want to come visit and swim.

Lindsay (10:41):

I know you got extra rooms up there. You told me how many rooms are at the Watkins Glen Farm Sanctuary? Yes.

Gene (10:46):

Yes. We have overnight accommodations. It's just such a, it's, it's sort of like a destination. Right. So our farm here near Los Angeles is more of a day trip. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. It's accessible. Well,

Lindsay (10:56):

'cause it's only, what, half an hour from Los

Gene (10:58):

Angeles? About five minutes from LA Yeah, yeah. You know, but Watkins Glen, because it is so far, it's nice to make a trip of it and stay there overnight and be immersed in this vegan world for a little while.

Lindsay (11:08):

Ooh, that sounds so nice. It,

Gene (11:09):

It's beautiful. It is beautiful. But it's near Cornell University. So I ended up enrolling at Cornell while we were up there to, and I got a master's in Agricultural Economics. And the idea was to be able to understand more about agriculture and to get a sense of why people do the things they do in this industry. And having that credential is also very useful in terms of being able to argue for these issues.

Lindsay (11:33):

I can imagine.

Gene (11:34):

Yeah. So that, so that was another benefit of being up in that area, just kind of not planned, but it worked out really well. I feel like

Lindsay (11:40):

You've really used that, that master's quite a lot because you've done a ton of legislation or lobbying work in your life.

Gene (11:50):

Yes. Having a master's in agricultural economics from Cornell gives you a sort of legitimacy Yeah. That a lot of times vegans don't really have. So that was very useful to have that. And I also observed how people are acculturated to accepting really bad practices in agriculture. You know, I was in these animal science classes and I watched young students who initially had a resistance to some of the cruel things that they observed come to accept the cruel things they observed as normal. Oh. So it was really interesting to watch this acculturation that occurs. You know, there was one class where they were showing us routine procedures in the pig industry where they were cutting off the tails of piglets, for example, and notching their ears causing these animals to bleed. You know, these mutilations, you know, were very painful. The pig piglets were screaming and bleeding. And, um, the teacher told us that this was necessary, and this is a normal practice. And at first, many of the students in the group were very upset to see this. Uh, but the teacher then asked, who wants to try this? And none of the young students wanted to, but eventually one of the young men in the class stepped forward. 'cause again, this is Cornell University, it's pre-Vet. People want to go along and get these degrees.

Moby (13:07):

Cornell's an Ivy.

Gene (13:08):

It is an Ivy, yeah. Yeah. And it's a land grant, which is interesting. So it's got an Ag school as well as Ivy League stuff. Um, but these students, you know, really wanted, you know, this is a, you know, highly reputed place and they want to be, you know, accepted there. And so they start doing these things that are really inhumane. And each time a new student stepped forward to do this, it became more normalized. So just watching that was really interesting. Um,

Moby (13:35):

It's like the Stanford Prison experiment almost like Yeah. Where

Lindsay (13:38):

They're electrocuting Yeah.

Gene (13:40):

The authority says, but in

Moby (13:41):

This case, it's not virtual. They're actually like in

Gene (13:43):

Real person. Right. The real empathy is there. And then these rationalizations start normalizing this. And Oh

Lindsay (13:49):

God, it's so heartbreaking. You're like seeing people's hearts hardened in real time.

Gene (13:53):

In real time. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's

Moby (13:55):

So, uh, so with Farm Sanctuary, as we all know, like, I mean, I have so many people in the animal rights world who come to me and they're like, oh, I'm thinking of opening a sanctuary. Like today, we just, we, we, we talked to Steve-O and his goal is to open an animal sanctuary. And my immediate thought is like, oh boy, <laugh>. Oh boy, do you know what's involved? 'cause I don't. But I know that it's gotta be the most labor intensive, capital intensive everything, intensive effort. But yet you've been doing it now for 30 some odd years. How you're just, I know that this is not a visual medium, but as I say this, you're grimacing from experience. It's a wince of sorts. Wi Yeah. Wincing, gr grim, grim wincing. Yeah.

Gene (14:40):

It, it's a great inclination to wanna help and rescue animals, but we cannot rescue billions of animals. And the advice I usually give is to start small and maybe stay small <laugh>. Because, you know, at the end of the day, we need to change the system. We need to go upstream. We can rescue some individuals. And I think that's very important. Um, but if we even rescued a million a year, it would be a drop in the bucket. Yeah.

Moby (15:07):

It's like 0.01% of the trillion animals who are killed every year.

Gene (15:12):

Rescue is only a small part. And it's, it's, it's setting an example and, and modeling relationships with other animals as friends, not food. That's what sanctuaries do. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, so I think we need to tell compelling stories, uh, create opportunities for people to connect with these other animals, to understand what their animals' lived experience has been, and to empathize with that. And to hopefully choose not to be part of that. Um, but ultimately we need to work on creating system reform that ideally put sanctuaries outta business, you know, where we don't have to rescue animals. And so what we're trying to do now at Farm Sanctuary is in addition to rescuing animals, we want to model solutions. Walk the talk of plant-based vegan living. We're putting in a cafe at our farm in Watkins, Glen, New York, for example. And we're starting to do some farming there.

Gene (16:02):

And so I could see us doing a farm to table eventually. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And then creating, uh, uh, internships and apprenticeships for young farmers to learn these skills and to be empowered by growing food. There's a food activist here in LA named Ron Finley who says, growing your own food is like printing your own money. So it's this idea of becoming empowered through food. And this could be done in rural areas, it could be done in urban areas, could be done in suburban areas. There's like a food, not lawns movement. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> in this country, we have like 30 million acres of lawns. That's more land than we have growing fruits and vegetables in this country now. So could you imagine if all these lawns were shifted and then instead of a gardener whose job is to come and mow the lawn and put down fertilizer, the gardener's, gardening, creating produce, and then that is in a community. And if you had a number of landowners doing this, you'd have tons and tons of produce that could then be made accessible to people who need it. You know? So there are different solutions to our food system problems. Animal rescue is one part. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, and then system change and, and making plant-based food accessible, uh, and empowering people to grow their own food. I get very excited about that idea.

Lindsay (17:18):

I now want to go rip up my yard and just grow a bazillion food types. That is, I mean, it really is inspiring. You don't think of it that way. You think of food as something for the majority of my life, I'm gonna say until I was 17, I didn't think that we could cook our own vegetables. I thought it had to happen in a factory and you had to get it from a can because I didn't think that we could, anyone could just do it. And I feel like there's been this constant revolution for me, and I think many other people to understand that like, that ground beef is a cow that used to be a sentient being with feelings and who wanted to avoid suffering. But also you can get a cucumber from your backyard if you just Oh yeah. Plant a seed and water it. Yeah.

Gene (17:58):

It's beautiful. And it's so empowering, right. To watch this happen. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And then it's about abundance. You know? Could you imagine, you know, when this stuff comes, it comes in in large amounts and then you share it with your neighbors. Yep. That's the beauty of it.

Moby (18:10):

Regarding sanctuaries, I mean, I have so many questions, but one thing is, uh, you know, I mean, I know we live in a world where people have nothing but contempt for or criticisms about social media. And I think a lot of those criticisms are valid. But I will always have a weird love for social media because of the platform. It's given sanctuaries. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, like for example, Watkins Glen very far away. Not that many people can go there, but everybody literally on the planet can see the animals that you've rescued can connect with the animals. And so, like I am so profoundly grateful for social media, for giving that platform. Like it's really pretty revolutionary and remarkable.

Gene (18:55):

Yeah. No, I favor the use of technology Absolutely. To reach more people. And, and we have these explore cams at the farm in Watkins Glen that are running 24 hours a day. So you can visit the sheet barn just by going online, which is beautiful. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And then social media's another great way to reach people. I think about like an air game, you know, where you reach a lot of people with social media and then a ground game where you have this more, you know, intense, intense experience. Mm-Hmm. Lived experience. Mm-Hmm. Shared experience like you had with Bruno at the farm in Acton. So I think we need the ground game and the air game both. Uh, but you can reach a lot more people with social media than with the in-person visits usually.

Moby (19:37):

So you move to dc correct? Yes. Do you currently live in DC

Gene (19:43):

I live in Arlington, Virginia, right outside of dc.

Moby (19:45):

Can you tell us what led you to move to DC and what work you're doing there? 'cause I don't necessarily see DC as being like a, there isn't necessarily a ton of acreage for farm sanctuaries in DC but what a wonderful thing that would be. Remember how like Jimmy Carter put solar panels on the roof Yes. Of the White House and Michelle Obama had a, a garden

Gene (20:06):

White House organic garden. Absolutely. Yes.

Moby (20:09):

Maybe we could have the White House be turned into a farm sanctuary.

Gene (20:12):

That would be phenomenal.

Lindsay (20:13):

A lawn of, I mean, that's a big lawn of grass.

Gene (20:15):

It is, it is. Well, you know, the USDA does have the People's Garden right outside of USDA headquarters just off of the mall. And that was started by Obama. And the current USDA secretary, Tom Vilsack under Biden was also the USDA secretary under Obama. And he's been sympathetic to urban agriculture, uh, community gardens and things like that, which is really good. Uh, but he does more to give it lip service than to actually fund it.

Moby (20:42):

Do you know what's interesting? When, when Lindsay and I were in DC we were talking to a bunch of people who work in at 5 0 1 c threes at nonprofits, um, lobbyists. And it was really fascinating 'cause Vilsack, when he worked for Obama, seemed like maybe he wasn't a great ally to the, I'm trying to be very diplomatic <laugh>, but he maybe was not necessarily on our side. But apparently as he's gotten older, he's become a lot more receptive to plant-based ideas and to things that he might have been antithetical towards in his first term as Secretary of Agriculture.

Gene (21:19):

I think he's evolving with, with the times a little bit, but he's still the head of a big machine that puts a lot of money into the wrong things. You know, when after being USDA secretary under Obama, he became the head of the US Dairy Export Council for four years. <laugh>. Yeah. And now he's back in. So he still has these strong ties to the machinery that is so harmful. But he says a lot of really good things. And I think he recognizes that the science really does support plant-based agriculture. Um, that the way we are feeding ourselves is horrible. And, uh, but he's dealing with political realities. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And he doesn't get too far out in front. Uh, but he does say good things. And I think if somebody says positive things, ultimately, then it's up to us to try to hold them to their words. You know, even if they're not doing what they're saying completely, if they're saying it, that's where we need to go.

Moby (22:14):

Yeah. Progress. Not perfection. So you move to DC when and what are you doing there?

Gene (22:19):

I moved to DC around 2009, and I had been on the farm in upstate New York for about 20 years. And I was finding myself driving to DC for meetings and driving back <laugh>, you know, six hours each way. And that's a long day. And I also was starting to do more traveling, and it's a lot easier to travel from Washington DC than from Elmira, New York. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> or from Ithaca or Watkins Glen, New York. And there's a number of activist organizations there. Uh, there are opportunities to encourage and try to push for certain new policies in Washington. So I moved there about 10 years ago, or a little over 10 years ago now, close to 15, I guess, um, to be able to play more of a role in food system issues. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And, uh, also I can get to New York from there easily. I can get to LA from there easily.

Gene (23:14):

Um, and it's just, just more accessible to more communities, bigger populations than being in Watkins Glen. Although I do wanna start getting back to Watkins Glen more often now, because we're also trying to work with local farmers to create solutions on the ground. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And we had a bill introduced in New York State called the Farmer Opportunity Bill that would take a $30 million a year, a farmland preservation grant program from New York State, uh, and shift that to plant-based agriculture. For years it's been used to support industrial dairies and to consolidate dairies, $30 million a year in state funding. If we can shift that to support community-oriented plant-based agriculture, uh, bipo farmers, women farmers, new farmers, young farmers who've historically not gotten support, uh, from the government. It would be, I think could be revolutionary. So we're meeting with local folks and want to start creating solutions and a model of a new kind of food system, uh, which makes me wanna spend more time up in that area to be part of that.

Lindsay (24:17):

So I want to know more about, I know that it's 2023, there's gonna be a new farm bill this year. Is there anything about this farm bill that makes you happy? <laugh>

Gene (24:29):

<laugh>

Moby (24:30):

Or, or optimistic or

Lindsay (24:31):

Encouraged or Exactly. <laugh>,

Gene (24:33):

You know, like I mentioned, we try to find common ground and build from there. Uh, I think reforms happen usually incrementally. There are some federal policies that I think are very good and they need to be expanded. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And one of these is the Gus Schumacher Nutrition Incentives Program, which is part of snap. And if it means that if somebody uses SNAP dollars to buy fruits and vegetables, they get two for the price of one. So it incentivizes people and encourages people to buy fruits and vegetables with these snap dollars, which then means that those dollars also get to farmers growing fruits and vegetables. Now, it only applies to farmer's markets and not at every farmer's market. So it's limited. We would like to expand this Gus Schumacher Nutrition Incentives program to apply beyond just farmer's markets so that more people who are using food stamps have access to more healthy plant foods.

Gene (25:27):

So that's one of the programs we're very supportive of. Um, there are also problematic things happening where the polluting industries are getting money from the government to greenwash and clean up their pollution. We would love to stop this. Uh, it's not going to be easy. Uh, but the farm Bill I think presents opportunities because it requires both rural and urban politicians to support. So it's one of those opportunities to try to find common ground and, and recognize certain facts. Like nine out of 10 adults in the US do not get enough fruits and vegetables. We should be funding more fruits and vegetables. We have a glut of cows milk that we can't get rid of. We should not be funding cows. Now, those are very rational, obvious things. So we'll be pounding those messages. Uh, we will try to incrementally lower the support for animal agriculture and dairy especially, but we also want to start shifting that towards plant-based agriculture. Um, but we're up against a big machine with very entrenched interests. So, uh, we're going to look for incremental opportunities.

Moby (26:35):

Are there any other organizations that you guys work with or that you work with? In DC

Gene (26:40):

Yes. We work with animal groups, but we also increasingly now are working with environmental groups, with worker groups, with, um, farmer groups. Uh, I think it's important for us to have a broad coalition. Uh, the only way we're able to make progress is to build power. You know, Washington is a place of power and the industry has a lot of power and animal groups on our own are not nearly as powerful as when we align with, you know, other diverse connected interests. So we're doing a lot of that now.

Moby (27:13):

And who are, are there any people in Congress who you've been inspired by or surpri? I mean, obviously Cory Booker, but that's on the Senate side. That's not the budget side. Yeah. So who, are there people that you've been surprised by or found, have been really supportive of what you're doing?

Gene (27:30):

It's a process. Um, we've had a few events on Capitol Hill. You know, Jim McGovern was at one of them, and he's a, you know, we had dinner

Moby (27:37):

When we were in dc we had dinner with him. We love Jim McGovern.

Gene (27:39):

So he's somebody that I think is doing good stuff. Uh, Earl Blumenauer from Oregon, very, very progressive. Um, so those are some of our friends and allies there. Um, but they're in a machine like everybody there. And, and for people who are from urban areas whose constituency would be sympathetic in many cases to the policies we would advocate for are, are not always recognized by the agricultural committees and the folks in agriculture as experts. So in addition to working with our friends and allies from urban areas, we need to find friends in rural areas. And that is a lot harder. That is a lot harder. And we're still working on that because they're up against, they have against certain voters. Right. And in industry interests that are really pressuring them to not do the kinds of things that we think they should be doing.

Moby (28:37):

Yeah. Are there any institutional allies who we haven't worked with in the past? Like the immediate thing that comes to mind is the insurance industry. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, the trillions of dollars they're paying out to essentially pay for damages caused by the current food system. And

Gene (28:54):

We can also adjunct the pharmaceutical industry, although they're benefiting from this, so they wouldn't be like the insurance who would maybe have an interest in challenging Yeah. The status quo. The pharmaceuticals make a ton of money on feeding farm animals. And then, you know, selling things to, to humans who get sick. Yeah. Make,

Moby (29:08):

Make people sick and make benefit from making people sick. And then make a ton of money once people are sick and dying and keep them sick. And like, I mean, it's so insidious.

Gene (29:16):

It totally is. So there's, um, various institutions that have been appropriated to advance this factory farming system. And, um, I think that the US Department of Agriculture, believe it or not, is this massive institution that has headquarters in Washington, but they also have land-grant universities in every state. And they have county cooperative extension agents all across the country. So there's this massive network, and they have generally promoted industrial animal agriculture. When I was at Cornell, Monsanto was doing research there at Cornell, this land grant university. So then it was being marketed essentially through Cornell and then through the cooperative extension agents and dairy farms are getting this message that this is the new way you need to use this bovine growth hormone if you're gonna stay in business, otherwise you're not gonna be able to compete. So what we need to do is start finding little positive examples of farmers doing good things supported by USDA and start getting things published.

Gene (30:15):

And there was actually a story published about a IC farmer in Vermont. There was another story published about a, a doctor who's a farmer in New Jersey, Ron Weiss, who does food as medicine. He has vegan potlucks that was in a USDA blog. So starting to get these little bits and pieces into this big machine. And then you start, hopefully, one of the reasons I wanna be in upstate New York a little bit more is spending more time at Cornell trying to get some of this work instilled there that then starts going out to the county cooperative extension agents. So, you know, there's a big hummus business in Ithaca. We need garbanzo beans, so we could maybe work with farmers to grow garbanzo beans. Um, there's those types of opportunities, and it's a matter of putting the pieces together, bringing the institutions together that have historically enabled dairy and the meat industry and the egg industry to start enabling a different kind of agriculture. And if we're able to pass this farmer opportunity bill and get some state money towards that, along with federal USDA money towards that in institutions like land-grant universities and, and this research promoting plant-based agriculture distributed through the county cooperative extension agents. Now we're talking about a big shift, but Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, it's a big machine and there's a lot of resistance to that. 'cause USDA also is very close to the pharmaceutical and the petrochemical industries, but, uh, small steps, incremental steps can lead to bigger ones.

Moby (31:43):

When we were in DC we were meeting with a bunch of different people, Jim McGovern being one of them. And there's so many sort of fascinating strategic approaches. But one thing that I think we were both really surprised by was how concerned even Republicans are even right wing Republicans are about losing out the, basically like we like solar power, you know, like a lot of photovoltaic panels are being produced in China. So we've missed out on this technology. And I think there's a fear that the world of alternative proteins, you know, plant-based proteins is an industry that we're gonna miss out on. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so, weirdly enough, like right wing think tanks are very concerned about this. Like, like, why do we keep subsidizing meat and dairy, which are old industries, when clearly the future is not meat and dairy. Yes. And I, it was just really fascinating to realize, like, surprising Republicans and surprising Right-wing people who are really worried that there's this new growth industry of alternative proteins that other countries are gonna snatch from us the way they have photovoltaic panels.

Gene (32:58):

No, I think that's very true. And I think also there's some conservative politicians over the years in think tanks that have talked about the inefficiency of subsidies going to animal agriculture, and it's just not a good use of money. And the other reality is that most of that money goes to the big farms, not the small farms. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So there's all these issues of injustice, of wasteful spending that can potentially appeal to diverse legislative offices and diverse constituencies. And I think that's where, for me, I, if we can build common ground with a diverse, you know, set of individuals and organizations, uh, that's how we can ultimately succeed. And it's, it's a big undertaking, but I think it's possible.

Moby (33:41):

Yeah. What I will say is, when we were in dc like we're meeting with former punk rockers, former hippies, former, you know, like revolutionary activists who figured out what we were talking about before is like, if you want to change the system, you can't stand outside the system. When you stand outside Mm-Hmm. The system, the system will probably ignore you. Yeah. You know, the system's really good at ignoring people. It's the people and it's, it's sometimes as to state the obvious, it's very unglamorous, the people who are willing to figure out the system to work within the system, but to not be corrupted by it. Yes. It, it's hard because like, you don't, incremental change is frustrating, but it's also, it's way better than just standing outside the hall, the corridors of power and just screaming and accomplishing nothing. Yeah.

Gene (34:34):

Absolutely. I think we need to be inside and outside both. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and a both. And, and I think people who work at USDA in places like that can play a really important role. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, uh, not only at maybe making some adjustments to policies and regulations, uh, but also helping to inform folks on the outside <laugh> where the opportunities may be. So I think that it's important for there to be inside and outside and Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> for there to be collegiality, coordination, and, uh, a holistic approach to food system change. And a big lever for us is health. I mean, that is relevant. People are eating food in this country that is making us sick. It's been estimated we could save 70% on healthcare costs by shifting to a whole foods plant-based diet. That's massive. Now, I don't think that all the pharmaceuticals, you know, are intentionally necessarily, you know, involved in this to make money and make people sick. But it's hard for people to see that what they're doing is causing so much harm. And there's these rationalizations that we're saving lives with these pharmaceuticals, but, you know, we could saving

Moby (35:43):

Lives. That's what they say that have been destroyed by the industries we're subsidizing. I know. It's, um, like people we know who are on Lipitor and statins, like these are life-saving drugs, but they're also unnecessary if you eat a whole foods plant-based diet, where someone could say like, that's, that's irresponsible to say that. And it's like, yeah. But that's what all the data supports. Yes. I mean, I'm, I'm not a doctor and I don't wanna get in trouble by for saying that, but whether it's the Good Food Institute or PCRM, or, I mean, there's just like mountains of research showing there is that these drugs are just largely like fixing a problem that can be fixed, could be

Gene (36:21):

Prevented through Cal.

Lindsay (36:22):

But the only problem is, and this is where a holistic approach comes in, but there's also a mental health crisis where I think people don't care about themselves. And if you don't care about yourself, you're not going to eat right. And you're not gonna give a how your actions cause harm. There's a whole other approach to this, which is how do you get people to feel good enough about themselves that they can make better decisions for themselves and the world around them? You're

Moby (36:46):

Absolutely right. And of course, the insidious irony there is that garbage food makes people sad and depressed and it feel anxious

Lindsay (36:55):

And you can't make Yeah. You can't make good choices about yourself. So I think that there's also something, and so something that, um, we were talking about when, when we were in DC is that there are all these young people that feel lost. They don't know what to do. They didn't make it as an influencer. And I feel like this industry feels so old, this industry of, of even like farming, even if you're farming stuff like a soybean that's ostensibly good. There's no next generation coming up that's excited, enthusiastic about potentially being a farmer of potentially like being a fancy shiitake mushroom grower or something. You know what

Gene (37:32):

I mean? It's starting to happen. There are some young people that are energized about that idea. Yeah.

Lindsay (37:36):

I just think that that's also part of the thing is like, you can help people by feeling good about themselves and feeling enthusiastic by opening up this career path of growing and being a part of this food movement.

Gene (37:48):

I think that's very true. And, and it's meaningful, you know, like people that come out of the military, you know, they do service. Right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> feeding people a great transition for military folks is to come become farmers. And there are some programs that help in that way, but feeding people is meaningful. And I think it's something that a lot of young people and, and people that aren't so young want, meaning wanna do something purposeful and beneficial. And the food industry is huge. There's huge opportunities there. Um,

Moby (38:17):

Yeah. It's hard to imagine something. I mean, like, there's a lot of things people can do that's meaningful, but like, take being a steward of the land and creating healthy food that benefits people, like, as far as like beautiful, purposeful life. Like that's, it's hard to do better than that. I

Gene (38:32):

Totally agree. And it's, and it's lived experience on the farm, on the land, right. Nourishing ourselves. Yeah. It's a beautiful thing. And so I think that there's a kind of a hunger for that among many. Um, but I think there needs to be more examples of it for, for folks to follow. 'cause you know, we're social animals. We see somebody do something, we do it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So the more we can see positive things happening, the more likely it is that those will catch on. And others will follow those examples and, and take those and iterate on them and evolve them. And there's enormous potential I think, in this area.

Moby (39:06):

It sounds like you and I at some point in the eighties realized that the purpose of caring for animals, of trying to transition away from this system is more important than we are. It's more important than our lives. And I'm wondering how, what your experience of, like, the purpose that comes with animal activism, how you feel like that's affected you.

Gene (39:31):

I think doing something for a cause bigger than yourself is very empowering, ultimately. And I also think that it's important always to just realize we're part of a much bigger system. We are all cells in a much bigger body of life, you know? And I think as human beings, we've acted in very entitled ways. We've abused our power. Um, I think as vegans, oftentimes there's this, um, kind of anti-human mindset, which is not irrational <laugh> when you look at what humans have done. But I think to embrace the best of our humanity is huge. And a big part of that is being humble and being, you know, part of a bigger effort. And to also realize that we're in it together. You know, it's, it's gonna require many voices, many collaborators, uh, and many people who we may not completely agree with, you know, so it's this.

Gene (40:25):

And that's, I think, part of humility too, you know, and it's, and it's, and it's tough when you're, when you're dealing with science and reality and certain facts, uh, and you really want to yell those things. Uh, and we need to make it clear what the reality is, but also do it in a way that is something people can hear. And, and that's the ongoing challenge, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, how do we, you know, scream how the world is on fire, but in a way that people can see it <laugh>. Yeah. That is the hard part. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> that is the challenge constantly. And I don't have the easy answer. I think it's contextual, uh, in different situations, call for different approaches. But, but I'm for many different approaches, I think there's a lot of ways to move the ball. And I think there's a lot of us working in various ways to do this. And I think it does require a variety of different tactics.

Lindsay (41:16):

Um, I wanna talk about your books, <laugh>, you've written a lot and contributed Yeah. To so much. But I feel like you had your last book came out in 2015. Yes. Living the Farm Sanctuary life. Yes. Which now I would like to live the Farm Sanctuary life <laugh>. Um, are you writing more now?

Gene (41:37):

I might, I might. I I do more articles lately. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I just had one in, in Fortune, in Fortune about how we need to change the, the farm bill to support plant-based food and not support this food that makes us sick that we've been doing. Um, I had something in the Washington Post a few years ago, and the headline was, the best way to help dairy farmers is to get 'em out of dairy farming. Ooh. You know, to really talk about there's all this money going to support these farmers who are struggling, many who will not survive in the dairy industry. So let's invest in, in providing alternatives in ways for these dairy farmers to do something else that's meaningful, productive, and viable through plant-based agriculture. So I've been doing more of that recently. Uh, I may do another book or or two, uh, that still remains to be seen, but my first book book came out in 2008.

Gene (42:24):

It's called Farm Sanctuary, changing Hearts and Minds About Animals Food, which is about farm sanctuary. And it, it really digs into the issues and the substance, uh, and it's still relevant, uh, and living the farm Sanctuary life is about how to live plant-based. And it's got like a hundred vegan recipes in it. Moby's got a recipe in it. Moby's chili. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And, uh, so it's, it's, um, it's, so that's the tools to how to live the farm, sanctuary life. And, uh, but this is an ongoing process. I can't predict what the future looks like and, uh, just take it day by day, learn and just try to do the best you can. That's, that's for me what it's about.

Moby (43:05):

And all thanks to Hilda

Gene (43:07):

All started with Hilda. That's right. That's right.

Lindsay (43:10):

Oh, sweet. Hilda. Hilda. Um, how do you, if someone is feeling like they're, they're ha at a loss for compassion, do you have any actionable things that people can do to either revive a lost hope that they may have of what's it all for, or to bring someone back to the table when they've backed off?

Gene (43:31):

Hope is so important. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And sometimes when you get very kind of wrapped up around how harmful things are and how disastrous some things seem, we can lose hope. And that's a big problem. And so for me, I think about the seren serenity prayer, right? To, um, have the strength to change the things I can, serenity to accept what I can change and wisdom to know the difference. And so there are things in the world that are beyond what I can control, and that is something we just have to accept. And sometimes as activists, it's important to do the little things like getting enough sleep, drinking water, taking a walk in nature. Uh, those are the simple things that can sometimes help someone come back from the despair as,

Moby (44:19):

As we sometimes say, self-care is a form of service.

Gene (44:22):

Yes. I totally believe that. And I think that, you know, there's also that thing, you put the mask on your, or the, uh, the, the, the airplane, what is it? Mm-Hmm. The, the

Lindsay (44:31):

Put the mask on yourself first. No,

Gene (44:32):

Before you Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> nice person. You're not in good shape. You're gonna have a hard time helping somebody else. So you

Lindsay (44:38):

Can't pour from an empty

Gene (44:39):

Cup. That's exactly right. Exactly right. Yes. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But keep hope alive. Right. And take heart from any even small thing that happens, dwell in the good things, and don't dwell in the bad things. For me, that's been really important because when you dwell in the good things, you come from a place of gratitude and potential and hope. And I think for me, that's really what keeps me going. I like

Moby (45:03):

It. Great. What a wonderful place to end. I

Lindsay (45:05):

Think. So Gene, where can people, um, find you, follow, you know, what you're doing next?

Gene (45:10):

Yeah. Well we have, you know, farm Sanctuary has a website, an Instagram page. I also have a, a Facebook and Instagram, and so people can follow Farm Sanctuary and, and my stuff that way. Great.

Lindsay (45:22):

Thanks Gene.

Gene (45:23):

Yes. Thank you. <laugh>.

Lindsay (45:33):

I am a little sad. Can I tell you why? I

Moby (45:35):

Mean, I'm sad for so many reasons, <laugh>, but yeah, please tell me why you're sad.

Lindsay (45:38):

Well, I'm sad for many reasons, but one reason I'm sad right now is that we just had two weeks with Gene Baur and now we have no more weeks with Gene Baur. 'cause boy was that nice to just have a month of Gene.

Moby (45:51):

And, and I agree. One of the other things that we've talked about before is how much I love having this little podcast. Hmm. Because we get to have these long involved, wonderful conversations with sometimes with people like Gene, who I've known forever. And I think in those decades we've never had a long involved conversation. Yeah. Which is weird. Like if you think about some people you've known forever, like when do you actually have a conversation that's two hours long that goes in depth about who people are, where they come from, what's important to them? So I really love that we've got this opportunity to have those sort of conversations with people.

Lindsay (46:30):

Oh, me too. And for me, it's very fun because people I've been fangirling over, like Gene, my like inner teeny bopper is kind of freaking out to get to meet these people that I am a huge fan of. I

Moby (46:43):

Do love that your inner teenybopper gets riled up in a good way by people who have started 5 0 1 c three nonprofits for animals <laugh>.

Lindsay (46:54):

Yeah. No, that's what drives me wild.

Moby (46:56):

Like for some people it would be like, oh, you've got Nick Lachey coming on your podcast, but instead for you it's, you've got Gene Baur coming on your podcast. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> time to like put on your farm sanctuary hat and like wave a penant in the air.

Lindsay (47:08):

Yep. That's me. Do

Moby (47:09):

People wave penant in the air or is that something that we just, just did back in the 1940s? Don't <laugh>.

Lindsay (47:13):

Oh my God. I'm a little bit shocked by it. I was gonna let it slide, but since you brought it up. Yeah, that's, um, that's some panhandle.

Moby (47:20):

<laugh> <laugh>. Okay. So before we say goodbye, just a reminder that a week from now the next Moby Pod is going to be my 36th year vegan anniversary. And we are going to tell my vegan story in six year increments, looking at where I was during that period and what music I was working on, and what was it like to be a vegan in 1987, living in an abandoned factory, et cetera.

Lindsay (47:47):

And we'll, we're gonna play snippets of the music and two of the songs that you'll hear are unreleased, one from 1987 and one from now. So that's a very exciting thing that getting to listen to those songs was a real thrill for me.

Moby (48:03):

So we should say goodbye. Okay.

Lindsay (48:05):

Goodbye. Just kidding. <laugh>. Um, um, I wanna say thank you to Jonathan Nesvadba who edits this podcast. I wanna send a special shout out to Gene Baur. We're at whatever mountaintop he's on right now. I just wanna say thanks for giving us so much of your time. Um, I wanna say thank you to Human Content who puts this podcast out into the worldwide airwaves. And I wanna say thanks to Moby and Bagel for being great.

Moby (48:32):

And thank you for listening, and we will talk to you in a week.