Moby (00:00:00):

Hi, I am Moby and welcome to what I hope is a very special episode of Moby Pod. First and foremost, hi Lindsay.

Lindsay (00:00:15):

Hi Moby.

Moby (00:00:15):

And hi Bagel.

Bagel (00:00:16):

Hi Moby.

Moby (00:00:18):

So I hope that every episode of Moby Pod is a special episode of Moby Pod, but this episode is unique because this is part one of our conversation with Hunter Biden. And to state the glaringly obvious, there's almost no one on the planet who is a more polarizing figure than Hunter. And Hunter's. A friend of mine we met through recovery a while ago, and what's confused me over the last few years is comparing and contrasting how the media portrays Hunter, especially the right-wing media, but the media in general, how they present him compared to the person I know. And I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about Hunter, I'm not trying to lead anyone to a conclusion. I'm just asking people to keep an open mind as Lindsay and Bagel and I went up to Hunter's Studio and talk to him about everything from Carl Jung, to spirituality, to creativity as a refuge.

Lindsay (00:01:16):

When we went to record this, I had only met Hunter one other time, and it was at his art opening, and he ran up to me and was so excited and said, oh my God, I can't believe I'm meeting Bagel. And was so sweet to me because.

Moby (00:01:31):

To be, fair, I do text him a lot of pictures of Bagel <laugh>, like, like Bagel at lunch, Bagel wearing sunglasses, Bagel wearing a party hat.

Lindsay (00:01:40):

He was acting the way I would've acted if Cher or Britney Spears would've walked into the room. Bagel was a celebrity to him.

Moby (00:01:47):

It's a very rational response. Yeah, Bagel is a celebrity

Lindsay (00:01:50):

<Laugh>. But he was so, so warm to me right off the bat, and I was very, very impressed with that when he's in a room full of people that are there to see his thing managed, to be so personable and connected and warm. And when we went to shoot this, I was so excited to have this conversation with him because I've watched the way that the media treats him and the way that the media treats others and the way that he has been dehumanized has been so hard to watch. And I'm so scared of the way that modern culture can dehumanize people. I think it's so dangerous. It makes me think of something that Brene Brown talks about often, which is what happens when you start dehumanizing people. It creates something called moral exclusion, where causing them harm or wishing them harm feels like it's not that bad to do because they're not a human anyway. And seeing it happen to Hunter who's so sweet, who's turned his life around in this beautiful way, it's hard to see. But I know that he has had ups and downs and wins and losses, and this conversation covers a lot of that. I think he was so forthcoming with everything, and, and it was such a nice day then I hope that that comes across in this conversation.

Moby (00:03:05):

And again, we're not trying to tell anyone what to think. We're not trying to tell anyone that they should have a specific opinion. Just ask me to keep an open mind as we go to Hunter's Art Studio perched above the Majestic Pacific Ocean while Baby Beau is running around. And we ate vegan cupcakes and talked about Carl Jung.

Moby (00:03:36):

Hi Lindsay.

Lindsay (00:03:37):

Hi Moby.

Moby (00:03:37):

Hi, hunter.

Hunter (00:03:38):

Hello.

Moby (00:03:39):

So, just to set the scene right now, we are doing our first ever remote Moby Pod recording. We have driven to Malibu, California, and we're here with my friend Hunter in his painting studio with his son Beau, who's currently covering his face with vegan Crumb cake.

Lindsay (00:03:58):

Is it good <laugh>? Yeah, <laugh>. His eyes got so wide,

Moby (00:04:03):

So there's so much that I want to talk about.

Beau (00:04:06):

No big trucks come here.

Lindsay (00:04:08):

Oh, yeah, Moby came in a big truck.

Moby (00:04:09):

I came here in a big truck. Big

Lindsay (00:04:10):

Trucks don't come up here a lot, huh? Be

Moby (00:04:12):

Yeah, it's a tiny little driveway. Should I even say we're in? Okay, we're, let me just rephrase that. We are currently in San Francisco at Hunter. We drove all the way up to San Francisco to go to Hunter's Studio. You already gave it away. Studio.

Lindsay (00:04:26):

We, we

Moby (00:04:27):

Edit it, don't worry. We're gonna

Lindsay (00:04:28):

Edit it out. To make it sound like the

Hunter (00:04:29):

New York Post has already published aerial photographs Right. Of where I live. So you're not giving that Wait, what? On the front page? Yeah. Yeah.

Lindsay (00:04:36):

That, that's isn't everywhere. There's a word for that. Isn't that called doxxing?

Hunter (00:04:39):

Oh, absolutely. They doxxed me. Yep. The

Lindsay (00:04:41):

The New York Post docs you,

Hunter (00:04:43):

The New York Post, the Daily Mail. Everybody.

Moby (00:04:46):

I don't wanna start off with because I really wanna talk about like art and existentialism and the ways in which you've found refuge through creativity and also like our respective battles with addiction. But a few years ago, this was before your dad got elected, you told me this story about, I guess was Beau had just been born Yeah. And that the Post or someone had published your address and all these maga lunatics came to your house. Yeah. <laugh>. What happened? So

Hunter (00:05:19):

It was right, it was actually before Beau was born. So Melissa was pregnant. Melissa was eight months, seven months payment. And they published on the front page, the picture of the house, the address aerial view of the house, the inside of the house from the realtors, you know, online offering of the house, description of where you could stand to see through the floor to ceiling windows, what on the road that we lived on. And literally within 36 hours, I had half a dozen to a dozen people, mostly men in, you know, mega hats with bullhorns literally pounding at the front door. Melissa was alone up in that house at the time, and there was a little, no, there's a little tiny place where I used to paint. I came running up. So then we moved in the middle of the night, literally left. And

Moby (00:06:05):

So that's, I that everything about it, the fact that like the New York Post, a Rupert Murdoch newspaper would publish your address details about your home, and then it would be attacked by Trump supporters with his encouragement while your wife is home, eight months pregnant. And you had to leave at one in the morning.

Hunter (00:06:27):

Yeah, we left midnight the next night, packed the entire house in a van, and, and a friend of ours found us another place to stay, and we were able to hide out there for a period of time.

Moby (00:06:37):

That was the one in Advantage.

Hunter (00:06:39):

Yeah. Then after the, the election and the inauguration protected by Secret Service, so people knew they were there. So then when they found out the, the Post and the Daily Mail again published my address. And, you know, within days, you know, there was a, this super right-wing filmmaker that they rented canoes on the canal with bullhorns, and for a week straight harassed us, harassed us in outside the house. And they, you know, there this public space. And we lived right next to the canal. And Beau was 1-year-old by that time, because we made this through this period of amazing solitude, which was, which was a horrible time for most everyone else. But in a way, the pandemic. Yeah, the pandemic. We were in this beautiful moment of having Beau and the ability just for the three of us to be cocooned for that period of time was a really, really magical, in a way, as much suffering was on the outside. There was a sense of security on the inside, but when that ended, it just flooded back. I mean, they rented a, you know, like a 30 foot digital billboard on a truck bed and parked it outside my house and showed pictures on South Venice Boulevard, literally 24 7 for a week. So we then, we, we literally were, there was only one way in that house and one way out, and it was impossible to do anything. It was impossible to, it put Beauie down for a nap because they were, had bullhorns outside of our window.

Moby (00:08:07):

And I'm also gonna contextualize it a bit because people listening might have the assumption like, oh, you were there doing glamorous things, like having crazy parties. It's like, I'd been to that house a bunch of times. You would drink coffee and paint with Beau was sitting next to you or on your lap. Yep. And then when you weren't painting, you would take Beau to look at the baby ducks. Yeah.

Hunter (00:08:33):

That was,

Moby (00:08:33):

This is, this is the Insidious Yeah. Hunter Biden world that the right-winger so upset about you. Like, so when, when they were parked outside Yeah. Their 24 hours a day, it basically meant Beau couldn't go look at the baby ducks in the canal. That

Hunter (00:08:47):

That's literally what it was. And we, we became prisoners by virtue of that. I mean, it was impossible to, to walk on the canal and look at the ducks and, you know, take the stroller to, to the beach when the sun was going down, or which just like, anyway,

Lindsay (00:09:03):

It's unclear what they are trying to achieve. You know, I heard of people protesting outside of a Supreme Court Justice's house when they decided that abortion would, could be illegal if a state chooses because they were upset about a ruling. And I'm trying to make a connection in my head because you are not a political figure. So it seems to me like the the intention is only to intimidate and scare. That's right. Like, I, I just don't understand. Here's

Hunter (00:09:29):

Understands my, here's my analysis of it. If you haven't, you should go back and read the forward to the 50th anniversary edition of All The President's Men. They, they given a really incredible synopsis of what led to Watergate. The thing that led to Watergate was the Nixon administration had figured out that the only person that would have a chance of beating them in the 72 election was a guy named Muskie Senator. He if this reminds you of something, he was a centrist senator from Maine, right? From Maine with an enormous amount of, of foreign policy experience. He was considered a working class guy that appealed to the, the vast middle of America. And they didn't think that they were beatable, but they thought that the only person that could beat them was Muskie. And so what they did, and literally some of the names are the same, Roger Stone was part of it.

Hunter (00:10:28):

What they did was, is they attacked the thing that mattered to him the most and what mattered to Muskie the most was his family, and particularly the relationship that he had with his wife. And so they broke into her therapist's office. They labeled her a drunkard. They said that she was emotional, which was another way for saying unstable in 1971. They threatened his family in ways and, and just went after him to the point where Muskie was making a speech in New Hampshire and it was snowing. And he said that it was snow that was melting on his eyes. So anyway, what happened was, is that Muskie cried during his speech and it ended, it ended his campaign, and he dropped out of the race. And the Democratic party ended up with a really wonderful human being, George McGovern, but a horrible candidate. And George McGovern Yeah.

Hunter (00:11:20):

In terms of ability to appeal to a wide swath of America. Right. And the times have changed, but the players have not. And I think that they took that lesson to heart and they decided that the one way in which they would be able to certainly just undermine my dad's confidence and ability to continue to campaign and move forward, particularly after the death of my brother, to think that he could lose his son, that he just had regained from an almost death through addiction. And so they just began to attack and attack and attack. And, you know, addiction provides for a lot of openings for people.

Lindsay (00:11:59):

It's a terrifying thing that you went through. And I, I'm curious about what the experience was like, but also how you've analyzed it in the aftermath, if there, if we are in the aftermath. No, it seems like we're amping up to another election cycle. Well, where I'm sure you probably have the fear of what happens this time around here.

Hunter (00:12:16):

No, I I, we are definitely not in the aftermath yet. I've stopped hoping for an end to this because as long as my dad as president of the United States, they're not gonna stop. This is a, people say to me all the time, they say, well, you must be used to this because your dad's been a United States senator since you were two, and then he was vice president. And I can tell you that I have never experienced something this like this. I've never witnessed anything like it, I've never witnessed the level of an invasion of privacy on any individual that I can possibly think of. I've never witnessed a sustained attack on one person like this. And I'm not, oh, woe is me. You know? But the fact of the matter is, is that just this year through July, I've been on the cover of the New York Post. None of it's been good about 20 plus times. And I, I saw Washington Post did a thing, I was the number three most spoken about person on Fox News. 48 outta 52 weeks in 2022. And

Moby (00:13:16):

When other people had been on the receiving end of this sort of attention, like for example, Hillary, she was running for president. 'cause Before, when she was a senator, when she was a First Lady in Secretary of State, she was universally loved, you know, by everyone from Lindsey Graham. Yeah.

Hunter (00:13:30):

She had an entire machinery Yeah. To respond and to react and to be aggressive and to push back and to be able to reach out to all of the people in the media and the powers to be, I'm

Moby (00:13:43):

Not, it was also her, it was also her choice. Like she, yeah, I mean, like, I'm not saying that she was deserving of anything that she was on the receiving end of.

Lindsay (00:13:51):

I think that there's a simplicity that people look for. They want there to be a good guy, and they want there to be a bad guy. And even if the bad guy isn't bad, he has to be for their narrative to make sense. So they will find any reason for the bad guy to be bad. A certain party banks on their constituency, being desperate for that sort of good versus evil narrative. And they know that those people will do whatever they can to make that narrative correct in their brains.

Moby (00:14:33):

One of the greatest compliments I ever received was, it was about maybe like nine months before I got sober. And I do fully, I'm fully aware of the fact that I've just created a complete non-sequitur segue to me talking about a compliment I received. But I was having this insane Christmas party and there were mafia people there that was just like sex and drugs and degeneracy all over the place. And I invited someone who worked at my record company who I didn't know very well, and this was on Christmas Day, complete de degeneracy and chaos. She walked up to me and she was so mad, and she looked at me and she said, you are chaos. And I just paused and I smiled, and I said to her, that's the nicest thing anyone's ever said about me <laugh>. So

Hunter (00:15:18):

Well,

Moby (00:15:19):

And hopefully now that I'm sober, I'm a little less, you're more organized. Chaos. A little Yeah. <Laugh> gentle. But we were saying while you were,

Hunter (00:15:28):

You're the opposite of chaos now

Moby (00:15:29):

You're saying like, I'm just some like weird uptight wasp from Connecticut. No. Okay.

Hunter (00:15:33):

I think that you live a well ordered life of anyone that I know is that, you know what? You need to stay centered. And nothing that anyone expects of you as Moby the Rockstar or Moby the friend, or Moby the you know, the image that they have in their mind, the sex

Moby (00:15:54):

Symbol,

Hunter (00:15:55):

The sex symbol, <laugh>, none of that. None of that is I think that the thing that most people would be surprised is the beautiful simplicity that you've created for your life.

Moby (00:16:06):

And I will say right back at you, and that's one of the things that we were talking about when you were inside, is the contrast between you and the mind of not just the Republicans but the world. And of course, you have to be aware of it, but it's so diametrically opposed to your actual life, you know, your actual life of sitting here with Beau painting texting me and Brian and some of our other idiot friends. You know, just like the, the gentle simplicity of your life compared and contrasted to the fact that you are in the eyes of GOP media like a robot antichrist. Yeah.

Hunter (00:16:48):

Well, I think that that's the $64,000 question, right? Is that how do you maintain, or how do you achieve a well-ordered life? And what I mean by a well-ordered life is the life that gives you as much sustenance as possible so that you can provide sustenance to the people that matter to you. That's what I mean by a well-ordered life. How do you do that in the midst of a, of a never ending hurricane?

Moby (00:17:17):

Well, that's, I mean, you, you've gotten to the crux of what I was really hoping to talk about is it's, on one hand, it's so self-evident that every single thing we do as humans is a response to the human condition. You know, being alive for a few decades in a universe that's 15 or 20 billion years old, and a universe comprised of a trillion galaxies, meaning we know nothing. And people sort of like go through life without ever without that really being challenged. And so they hold on to like, you know, take the occasional vacation, hang out with your friends, do the occasional thing, watch the occasional TV show, and you sort of stumble, people stumble through life never actually being challenged. And one of the things, apart from the fact that you and I are friends, and I think you're smart and you're kind, and you're funny and irreverent is you, as you were saying earlier, more than almost anyone has been on the receiving end of 21st century job style slings and arrows. And what I am really curious about personally as your friend, but also in something that, that I think people could really stand to hear, is did you say, well-ordered life. How do you maintain a well-ordered life when on a daily basis you're attacked by hundreds of millions of people?

Hunter (00:18:39):

Well, to be completely honest, it's struggle. Yeah.

Moby (00:18:41):

Especially

Hunter (00:18:42):

Now. Yeah. But one of the things that is, that has I think the most important thing that has informed at least a, a roadmap of how to do that is what I learned through recovery and all of the little things that, that people in recovery will fully understand. And those that are not in recovery, that have family members or friends, and there's not a single human being on the face of the Earth, I think that does not have, has not been impacted by addiction in one way or another, in a significant way in their life. And all of the little sayings that a lot of people take for granted and think, think are trite or too simplistic, actually hold real meaning. Like

Moby (00:19:27):

The, the bumper stickers, the easy does bumper stickers it one

Hunter (00:19:29):

Day at a time bumper sticker. Yeah. Yeah. I was about to say is like one day at a time. You know, the Serenity Prayer in and of itself is a roadmap for of how to at least aspire to, when I refer to a well-ordered life, I don't mean in the idea that that that I, that you're fully organized on a daily basis and you get up and you make your bed. But what I do mean by, well-ordered life is a life in which you can maintain an inner peace that is, that allows you to be of service to other people. That to me is a well-ordered life.

Moby (00:20:01):

I mean, in a, in a sense, you kind of, that is the core of 12 step programs of sobriety, of recovery is, you know, you don't get sober to be sober. You get sober to be of service. Exactly. You know, and so you kind of just like, that's the cliff notes of recovery, at least from my perspective. Yeah,

Hunter (00:20:20):

A hundred percent. And what I've found is that when it gets really hard, like this week was really hard. It was really hard to, to keep it cool. And you know, and it all I know, all I know is this, some days it's a struggle. So you gotta do the things that like one of the things that you have to do is you have to take yourself out of situations, people, places, and things that are difficult for you to manage your disease, which is not a disease of of alcohol. It's a disease of being uncomfortable in your own skin at any given <Affirmative> moment. In certain instances, in certain situations, you gotta be not just aware of that, but you have to be militant about it. You know, when I first got clean four years ago, it, it wasn't by virtue of that I didn't know what you needed to do and things like that.

Hunter (00:21:20):

It was by virtue of the fact that Melissa took my car keys, my wallet, my phone you know my shoes and and put me in a house up in the, in the hills where there was nowhere that you could walk to you know, to buy a bottle of vodka. And for the, at the outset, that's what it took. That's what it took. And then you have to learn what you can handle as you get stronger. And in doing so, sometimes what you find is this beautiful thing that you, you can find sustenance inside that you can find joy in your immediate proximity, that you don't need those things that you thought that you couldn't live without. And for me, that's been my experience. Now, the hard part is that the excruciatingly difficult thing to do is to maintain that when you are literally the focus of a hatred and an intensity that is both specific and global.

Hunter (00:22:30):

I mean, I had a friend telling me that his wife is Japanese, and he said, you know, she calls me and tells me what's going on before I even open up my iPhone to see the newsfeed. I mean, it is not like it's limited to the Washington DC media. And people also have to understand, is it, you either survive it or you don't. There is no doubt in my mind, and this may sound like some crazy hyperbole, is that they're trying to kill me through other means. Oh, yeah. And I just won't let 'em. And so what do I do? First of all, number one thing is what can I do for you? 'cause It's the only thing that takes me outta me. And luckily for me, that opportunity wakes up in my bed in the form of a three-year-old <laugh>. Yeah. You know what I mean? But really, I mean, it's like a, like what a miracle. What a miracle in this moment of time to have bo as much as it's a miracle to have the rest of my family. But what a miracle, because you're either there and present for a three-year-old or you're not. And

Moby (00:23:38):

Also, one, one thing I will say, I don't have children of my own, but I know a lot of people who found really meaningful recovery and meaningful sobriety as a result of having children. And if you can just, I mean, like, I, I almost don't even wanna say this because I imagine even considering it would be so awful, is thinking about like, what would your life be like, like these last couple of years if you were using and trying to be a good dad to beau? What would that be

Hunter (00:24:07):

Like? It's not possible. It's not possible. And, you know, I mean, my my greatest guilt, you know, I think that if you don't learn this in recovery, you should learn this in recovery, is that there's shame and there's guilt. And guilt is a healthy emotion. It's important that we have guilt. It's important that we recognize what is right and wrong and to feel bad when we don't do the right thing. That's a good thing. Shame is a whole different thing. Shame is a whole other disease. The idea that you live in shame means that you'll never be able to make amends for the things that you did. You will never be able to forgive yourself for the things that you've failed to do. You'll never be able to think that others can forgive you if you live in shame. And so, the guilt that I have during the worst part of my addiction, where I became completely detached from my three daughters, and the most important thing in raising a child, no matter what their age, whether they are teenagers like they were, or in their twenties like Naomi was, or was it, they're 35 years old.

Hunter (00:25:19):

To tell you the truth, the most important thing in any relationship is being present, being available, being there, because you don't know when the breakup is gonna happen. You know? <affirmative>, you don't know when you lost the state championship. Or your kid is gonna have that fight with their friend that feels like an existential threat to them at that moment. You just have to be present. You have to be present to be able to, to receive whatever angst and hurt and anger they have, and be able to try to help 'em through it. And I took that away from them, and my addiction took that away from me. It took it away from them. And I have an enormous amount of guilt, an enormous amount of appropriate guilt for that.

Moby (00:26:06):

But you're making a living amends.

Hunter (00:26:08):

No, I, I am, I, i, look what I'm saying is, is that I no longer have shame for it. I had shame for it for a long time. I had shame for not being there for the people that loved me the most, and that needed me the most, including my dad and my mom and my sister, and my uncles and aunts, and all the people that literally would die for me. I had shame for that for a long time. And you know how I dealt with that shame? I drank, I used drugs because it didn't seem possible that I wouldn't ever feel this way, that I wouldn't ever feel as if I was obviously less than. How could I be so bad? How could I be so wrong? How could I do it? It's because, because I'm not a good person. If you're never, if you're always gonna be a up, then like, what the hell?

Hunter (00:26:48):

Well, I know how to fix that. And your brain tells you. And so much of this also has to do with the chemical reaction that you're, the way in which you're, you wire yourself, your entire physiology becomes, it says, screams one thing. It screams, we have a fix for you. <affirmative>, I got a fix for you. I got a fix. For all that shame, you won't feel it. And you go, okay, that's what I'm gonna do. Guilt, however, is I wake up acknowledging that I am living in amends, and I will for the rest of my life. Not in a bad way, but because it's a beautiful thing. Yeah. It's a beautiful thing to know that what I'm gonna do in the morning is just be filled with gratitude that number one, I'm alive. Number two, that I can be of service to other people. Number three, that I can engage in the things that I know that are gonna give me some sustenance to just make it through the day. And that's art. And that's talking to you. I mean that sincerely, I've said that to you, you know, I've said it to you a a lot of times, is that

Hunter (00:28:02):

Sorry.

Lindsay (00:28:03):

It's okay.

Moby (00:28:04):

It's interesting when, just as, as an aside, maybe I'm the worst person to say this, obviously being in the presence of sincere emotion is beautiful. But you looked all of a sudden, like a 9-year-old Like, you look like a, like all of a sudden your face changed and you looked so just this young, this young gentle vulnerability.

Hunter (00:28:25):

Yeah. And that's what it is. And it, it what I was gonna say is without being overly saccharine with you, which I know that you can't stand, is the is it you came with mutual friend that introduced us, and and since that day, I think I have communicated with you in some way almost every day for over three years. Pretty much.

Moby (00:28:52):

And for a while, I did pride myself on figuring out how to be your most irritating friend <laugh>. Yeah.

Hunter (00:29:00):

Which by

Moby (00:29:01):

The way,

Hunter (00:29:01):

Because

Moby (00:29:02):

It's

Hunter (00:29:02):

Hard work

Moby (00:29:03):

<Laugh>, because you have on your phone when you get your notifications Yeah. It vibrates, right? Yeah. And so I'd make sure to text tons of times in a row when I knew you were like, in the morning,

Hunter (00:29:17):

You know what you can say in a paragraph, he'd say it in 42 texts, <laugh>, it'd go, boop, boop Boop. And I'd be on a phone call and, and yeah. And my other friend Brian, is on this text with, with Moby and I, and it would literally, it go just <laugh>. They would sh

Lindsay (00:29:32):

But what, you hear something I text with Moby often. Yeah. That is not how he normally texts. So I No, I

Moby (00:29:37):

Know. Oh, no. Just because I know what anno

Hunter (00:29:38):

I

Lindsay (00:29:38):

Know, I know. That's why I know. It's like

Moby (00:29:40):

A lot of effort on your part to be that

Hunter (00:29:42):

Annoying. 'cause I made a mistake of one time saying to them, like, you know, let's tighten it up guys. <Laugh>. Yeah.

Moby (00:29:49):

It's just the glee that I feel knowing that I'm so effectively irritating someone

Hunter (00:29:53):

<Laugh>. But anyway, I, I know that you know this because I've said it to you, is that how meaningful that is to someone that is just desperate to know that there's someone else out there that understands them to a certain degree, that does not pretend to understand everything, that doesn't have any prescription for them, other than I'm here, I'm present. I care, I care enough to reach out to you on a daily basis. I care enough to respond to you. And it's amazing how powerful that can be, you know? And you know, I mean, you've been a model for me, for other people in my life to realize that you just have so much power. And I say to this, to people who have family members, by the way, this is in recovery too, which I can't stand, is that you gotta let 'em hit bottom. Okay? You gotta let 'em hit bottom. You gotta let 'em go all the way down. And then maybe they'll open their eyes and see the light. Just such. Because you know what the bottom is? You're dead in, in the world of addiction that I lived in, you're dead. You're absolutely dead. Or, and if you're not dead, you're in jail. And if you're not in jail, you're not living, you're, you're dead in a way that you'll never

Moby (00:31:15):

Recover from. Yeah. You're, you're as sick and miserable as anyone has ever been.

Hunter (00:31:20):

And I know that it is not possible for everyone to expose themselves. So I know this, is that what I tell people that, that the most important thing to do is to never let go. Okay. You can protect yourself. You can make certain that you have the boundaries that you need to have with that person that you love, but never let them disappear. Always let them know that you're there. I have a friend, Brian, who Moby knows well now. Yeah. And he drove me crazy in my addiction, absolutely insane. Because he never stopped calling me.

Moby (00:31:58):

O'brien is the ultimate mech. Yeah. Like he and he, boy, oh boy, he loves you so much, and

Hunter (00:32:05):

I love him. But I'll tell you what, what Brian recognized was my brother was that person in my life. My brother was the person who would never let me disappear. And when my brother died, literally Brian would call me all through my addiction two, three times a day. And I'd never picked up. I hardly ever responded. But every once in a while, he would get proof of life that I was out there every once in a while. And he just never gave up. Just never ever gave up. Sometimes the people that you love that are in the throes of addiction just do such horrible things that you think like that you're so angry at them. Understandably so. Just so mad. But I do know this is that the other person that never, ever, ever let me go is my dad.

Moby (00:33:00):

Well, I have to say, so before we came up here, I asked Lindsay and Jonathan to read your book. So they both were texting me while they were reading about how much they loved it. And it reminded me, and this is, this is both a compliment and a plug for your book, because when I wrote my first memoir, I went out and read as many memoirs as written by other people as I could. 98% of them are terrible, or they're just, they're not honest. They're had geographies, which is such a good word. What

Lindsay (00:33:31):

Does that mean? Had

Moby (00:33:32):

Geography is a story about a saint. So a lot of times when people write memoirs, they like, unfortunately, like maybe like the Bill Clinton memoir, where it was like trying to, like the author wants to be presented in the best light or the toughest light, or the coolest light. And it's so rare to find a poetic, honest, self penned memoir. And yours was like, I remember when you sent it to me, I was a little, like, I was like, uhoh, what if it's bad? Like, how do I politely say like, <laugh>? I

Lindsay (00:34:00):

Understand it's like gonna see a friend's player seeing and being like, oh God, how am I gonna compliment them if this goes, if this goes south?

Moby (00:34:05):

But I started reading it, and I was texting with our friend Brian, and I was like, this is, it's really good. It's authentic, it's honest, it's vulnerable. And one of the things that stood out to me the most was the character of your dad in the book, when I say character, I mean the quality of your dad. Yeah. And I've never met your dad. But it, it expanded my love for him. Hmm. Because just the way he comes across in the book is that like so emotional and so decent and so concerned and so engaged. So your book is wonderful, but especially the way that your dad is portrayed in the book is really special. Yeah.

Lindsay (00:34:43):

I don't think I've ever read a book the autobiography memoir or otherwise fiction or non that explores male intimacy with such gentleness and detail. But I, I was so taken with the deep love between all of these men. It's, it feels rare. And it's sad to me that it feels rare.

Hunter (00:35:09):

Yeah. Well, I, that's an interesting way to, to put it not, but it's absolutely the truth is the I always get nervous in saying that I had such a special, unique relationship with my brother and my dad, because I know that, like, that that's the foundation of the best me. Hmm. Is that, you know, when we were talking before about out of every disaster a miracle

Moby (00:35:32):

Mm-Hmm.

Hunter (00:35:34):

That was the, the most awful disaster, which was the death of my mom and my sister. I was given the miracle of the relationship that I have with my whole family, but in particular my dad and my brother. Yeah. And it was the, the single thing that was the, the thread that held me together. And when Beau died, I completely unraveled. Just completely unraveled. And it's not an excuse, but it is the reason, because I felt that the, the one thing that I knew, or that I believed that I needed to tether me to this earth was that relationship. And I'm still dealing with that today. I'm still trying to figure out how to resow myself. You know, I found that, you know, in Melissa, in terms of unconditional love, that's a piece of the puzzle. And refocusing on being present, like I said before. But what I think I've realized more than anything is that you have to figure out within yourself a reason to be to be like, at some point you gotta figure out what it is within you that's worth saving.

Moby (00:36:58):

I, I completely agree with you, and this is what I was sort of trying to bring up earlier, is the majority of people don't have to do that. You know, you know, you stumble through life and you, you're only confronted with these questions maybe towards the end of your life at some point. But I'm just saying, like, what fascinates me are the people who've gone through it. You know, the people who've, who've made those, those journeys, you know, who've been on that trajectory because their lessons are like hard won, hard learned, and legitimate. Yeah. You know, it's no longer you, like, it's, it's, when opinions about existent existential reality, opinions about the human condition are no longer academic. You know, they're no longer cloistered, but they've been tested by intense adversity.

Hunter (00:37:49):

Yeah. This isn't over <laugh> for, for me, I'm still in the, in the eye of the storm. So what I do is just try to focus on literally what's in, what's in front of me. Like in this, this moment, in this, this, not even this day, this morning, this afternoon, but I am certain of this too, is that I'm living in the, in the age of miracles of my life.

Moby (00:38:15):

You're reminding me like half of the people we've spoken to for, for Moby Pod have referenced Viktor Frankl, you know, Viktor Frankl, right? Yeah. Yeah. And that famous quote, like between stimulus and response is a space. And within that space resides all of our freedom. And I sometimes have to remind myself, like, when I'm dealing with adversity big or little is the, the actual question. Like, well, what's really going on? You know, for example, like, I understand like you're on the receiving end of all this hate, all this vitriol, but we're, this is, right now, this moment is so lovely, you know? Yeah. We've got vegan cupcakes, we've got coffee Bagels lying in the sun. You're surrounded by your beautiful art. The breeze is blowing in off the ocean. Like, I mean, the re the actual tactile physical reality of this moment is so profound and wonderful.

Moby (00:39:14):

And I almost feel like there's, it's sort of this, this challenge that I, I keep asking myself like, if we can't be truly appreciative of right now, of this moment, we'll never be happy or appreciative of anything. <affirmative>, I was reading an article, and I don't wanna get you in trouble 'cause you're not, you weren't involved, but it's, there's an article in New Yorker about Larry Gagosian. Yeah. You know, the most successful, arguably the most successful art dealer of all time. And his house is everywhere and planes and worth billions of dollars. And this like, you know, having huge parties for billionaires and rock stars. And I'm like, yeah. All that big stuff. Just me, to me it indicates an inability, most likely to be happy with what's right in front of you, you know, to be happy with a cup. If you're happy with a cup of coffee and a delicious cupcake, there's a very good chance that you won't need, you know, a private plane that can seat 40 people to go to your villa in St. Bart's where you can hang out with supermodels and rock stars. Yeah.

Hunter (00:40:21):

I mean, I don't think we need to pick on Larry <laugh>.

Moby (00:40:24):

I'm, yeah. Sorry. I

Hunter (00:40:25):

Know you're not, I mean, we don't have to go too far particularly in this town to or any town for that matter. I mean, any city. And I, I do know that the difficulty for, for me, what I'm trying to figure out now is how does the Frankl quote go?

Moby (00:40:42):

"Between stimulus and response? There's a space and within that space resides all of our freedom."

Hunter (00:40:48):

Yes. Okay. I try to live in that, in-between space as much as possible. In the way that I do it is that I focus on what's in front of me, whether it's the coffee or the painting, or my children or my annoying wife

Moby (00:41:06):

Or annoying friends who text you

Hunter (00:41:07):

Or annoying friends who text me. I, I literally, that's what I really, really try to focus on. The difficult thing is the, the level of stimulus that requires a response from me is that when it feels so out of my hands or control. And so the stimulus is on a, I'm not kidding, an hourly basis. I picked up my phone, I got a text, I need to respond because this person is saying this or writing this about this thing. And it happens not every once every two weeks or once a month. It literally happens on an hourly basis. And so what is the difficult thing in the situation that I'm in? And I'm, and I'm, I'm like a, the Guinea pig <laugh> trying to, and, and I try to become like a detached observer of myself to figure out what works and what doesn't work. But that stimulus just happens so much. And not because of any situation I put myself into, but simply because there is a machine out there that is just feeding this engine of just constant hate's.

Moby (00:42:24):

Well, and they don't have anything else's.

Hunter (00:42:26):

No. And they don't have anything else but the, but, but, and so sometimes that's the way I detach sometimes the way that I detach from it is to say, you know, the courage to know the difference between what I can <laugh>, I just screwed up.

Moby (00:42:39):

That's okay. So the Serenity prayer, it was interesting you mentioned that earlier, the Serenity Prayer. 'cause There's a, a story about when Bill w who founded AA Yeah. Found that quote. 'cause The wonderful thing about aa, there's nothing proprietary about it. Yeah. Like, they just, basically they borrowed. And I want to talk about Carl Jung at some point because on my list of things to do, I still want to get you that Carl Jung Red book because you told me that at one point you sold your copy of Carl Jung's red book. No,

Hunter (00:43:08):

It disappeared somewhere. Yeah.

Moby (00:43:09):

Yeah. Either sold it for crack or some it got stolen. So I still am trying to find that giant ashian version of the Red Book. Yeah. So Bill w found this, the Serenity prayer, 'cause they didn't write it, he found it on in some box of cereal or something. And he came in and the wonderful thing about the Serenity prayer that I didn't know, it had to be explained to me by some old bottomed out alcoholic on the Bowery, is the nuanced meaning the way it was explained to me, and please correct me if you guys think I'm wrong, say

Hunter (00:43:40):

The serenity prayer for

Moby (00:43:41):

Everyone. Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference. Exactly. And when I first heard that, I was like, what a bunch of weird gobbledygook. Yeah. Like, 'cause it's just like what I, the serenity, what a weird sentence. The way it was explained to me is grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, which is basically everything outside of my mind. The courage to change the things I can, which is basically my thinking, my emotions and the wisdom to know the difference is recognizing that everything outside of me, and this is a subtext of a lot of, not just recovery, but spiritual programs. Everything outside of me is not my business. Like, like I almost feel like one fascinating thing that I don't know if you're doing, or that you could do is sort of look at, do a, a 10th step around the maga people do a 10th step. Like basically look at your resentment towards them. 'cause Objectively your resentment is justified. These people showed up at your house to attack you and your pregnant wife. Like, if I was your sponsor, I'd be like, yeah, you know what? In a rational world, you should hate them. You should resent them. But clearly the resentment is corrosive,

Hunter (00:44:58):

Corrosive

Moby (00:44:58):

Beyond. Yeah. And so I wonder, like if you've, I'm sure you have, but like, have you tried to sort of deconstruct the resentment that you have for the MAGA people? Yeah.

Hunter (00:45:08):

Well, one of the things that I absolutely am certain of, and I tell Melissa all the time because I think that the, that the thing that probably frustrates her the most about me is the lack of anger that I show towards all of this. And understandably so. It's like, why aren't you as mad as I am? And the reason is, is because for an addict, anger and resentment is kryptonite. It is literally, at least for this addict, the one thing that I know <Affirmative> that I, I can't engage with, I can't dabble in because it just, it pulls you down the rabbit hole faster than at least for me, anything else.

Moby (00:45:52):

To me it's demonic. Like when you talk about that, I, I can almost see the demon of anger, like the demon of anger, the demon of resentment waiting. Yeah. Like, and just so desperate for our attention. Yeah.

Hunter (00:46:07):

It's becomes a, it fuels everything that, that creates that discontent and shame that makes life feel as if it's unbearable. So how do I, I I deal with it is that, you know, I figured out a long time ago, none of this is about me. None of this <laugh>, these people don't know me to hate me. They don't know me from Adam. Even if they think they know me, they do not know me, number one. Number two is that if you have been fed all of these lies from that I am a, a pedophile and a sex trafficking maniac, then wouldn't it be incumbent upon you to have a deep hatred of me? Wouldn't it be incumbent upon you if you saw me at a restaurant with my 2-year-old on my shoulders in his little Chewbacca outfit on Halloween to come running up to me and scream in my face?

Hunter (00:47:06):

Wouldn't it? Did that happen? Yeah. Wouldn't it be, wouldn't it be incumbent upon you though? There was a story that was in about a couple years ago that had this eighth grade boy came home to his mom and some here, somewhere here in California, in Orange County, I think somewhere. And he said, mom, this teacher's teaching us all these crazy things and she just spends the whole class talking about Joe Biden and Hunter Biden and Donald Trump. And so she said, well just turn on your phone next time. And I want, what do you mean? And so this teacher was spending her classes telling people that I had Chinese children locked in cages inside of China, and I was running a, a sex trafficking ring for Hollywood liberal elite pedophiles. So if that's what you're being taught if in school, in school to an eighth grader, there's not much difference from that. Then when Fox News went on a tear that I was in some way connected to funding the Wuhan lab that created Covid, it's not too far

Moby (00:48:17):

To, to be fair, that was you and Tom Hanks and

Hunter (00:48:19):

Dun get Yeah. And Tom Hanks. Yeah. And by the way, but also then it went to the entire Russian Defense Ministry, held a two hour press conference to explain how me and George Soros were funding bio weapons labs in Ukraine in order to, and to release migratory birds infected with diseases over Russia. Or that I'm a foreign agent because I got paid for doing business with foreign companies, or that I am a sex trafficker because I wrote my book that, that I slept with prostitutes. This is not, I'm, I'm not hiding this. I don't feel good about that, but it's a part of my past. But they have expanded it that I am a, in one sense, a mastermind criminal running a global syndicate. And on the other sense that I am a degenerate that can't tie my shoes and that I should never have been in business because I'm a moron and I wasn't doing any business. I was just basically letting people, I was be in a rain bucket and letting people just, but that

Moby (00:49:23):

You're, but that you're running bio weapons labs,

Hunter (00:49:25):

But I'm the same time bio weapons labs with George Soros that are going to infect the Russian population.

Moby (00:49:30):

It would be funny

Hunter (00:49:31):

If it wasn't so destructive if

Moby (00:49:34):

It didn't involve people attacking you constantly. And

Hunter (00:49:37):

So the point being is that if I allowed myself a moment, I allow myself sometimes a moment to get mad. But I am, one of the things that I'm militant about is not allowing for that to last literally more than a minute.

Moby (00:49:52):

So, so here's a question that I've never asked you is there's one subtext to all of this that I think is so con it's confus a little confusing to me is apart from art and your memoir, you have almost no public presence. So basically they sort of feel like, oh, we can do whatever we want. 'cause He never stands up to defend himself. Yeah. And so why aren't you, I'm not advocating you should be, but why aren't you on social media or doing like, going out and presenting yourself in public more often as far if That's a bad question. Now, now.

Hunter (00:50:29):

No, it's not a bad question. There was a point where the advice from, you know, the smart people in the room was that this was nothing more than a distraction as related to what really matters to the American people. And adding my voice to it would only add fuel to the, the fire. <affirmative> is just now that thesis has been completely blown out of the water because it's not possible, I think to think that the fire could be any hotter, that it is literally right at for

Moby (00:51:04):

At this point, kerosene would probably like Yeah. Make the fire burn less. Burn.

Hunter (00:51:07):

Yes, exactly. And so then it was that I am continued to be under investigation for now five years for all of these conspiracy theories and things. And so therefore, the thing to do that every lawyer will tell you to do is basically to to remain as low profile as possible and let it work itself out and it will work itself out and it'll be over this, you know, I've been hearing that for years now. Okay. And so then brings us to this very moment. There are things that I, for instance, that I want to do. One of the things that I want to do is to use what I know that I am an expert at, which is to help people, particularly men that did not have the advantages that I had in terms of rehab facilities and professionals to be able to, to find some help. I wanna do that. I think that there are a lot of good that will come out of all of this, all of this horrible, but one of the things that I'm not gonna allow pass is the opportunity to be of service to people who are still sick and suffering. And I think that one of the things that is most important in my recovery was being able to see people see me for who I am and still say, oh my gosh, you understand? Well, that,

Moby (00:52:33):

Sorry to jump in, but like, that is such a powerful part of recovery. You know, like there's that old expression, we're only as sick as our secrets. Yep. Mm-Hmm. So when I first got sober and I started going to meetings, I was so ashamed of everything. I was ashamed of my actions. I was ashamed that I was at meetings, I was ashamed that I couldn't drink like a normal person. I would, you know, everything gave me shame and the power of sitting in a meeting and having people who were way cooler than me, way tougher than me, way more successful than me. Way more way smarter than me. Way more interesting than me publicly talk about the things that I was too ashamed to talk about. Like it really was this like tectonic liberation. Yeah. Spending a lifetime, hiding your secrets, hiding your shame, and then finding out, oh, it's okay to be honest about who you are and what your experiences are.

Lindsay (00:53:29):

That goes back to the shame thing that you were talking about. That's where shame thrives is when you sit alone with that feeling. Exactly. Lindsay, and that's something that really struck me about your book, was how very vulnerable you were in it and how honest you were. And I'm sure there's some stuff you left out, but I was just so taken with how, with how forthcoming you were about the darkest details and the darkest moments. Yeah. Because I think there's real beauty in not hiding those things and in exactly what Moby's saying of you heal when you put it somewhere outside of you and you've decided to do it on a very grand scale.

Moby (00:54:08):

And I would even say, and I've told you this before about your book, it's a form of service. You know that being honest in public, being honest about your struggles, I guarantee you people have read your book and thought, oh, if Hunter Biden can confess these things in public. Yeah. Wow. I guess I don't have to be as ashamed as as ashamed of my

Hunter (00:54:27):

Sequence. And that, by the way, that's the one thing and one of the reasons why I am gonna survive this and I'm gonna survive it clean and sober, is because I am not gonna let these Okay. Use me as just another example of why people in recovery are never gonna be okay, never to be trusted. They're all degenerates. I'm, I'm just not gonna let that happen. I'm just not gonna let it happen. Because the thing that bothers me the most, there's pieces in my book of these things that were so embarrassing, like, like, like crawling around on a floor, looking for pieces of crack cocaine to be able to smoke it and realizing that what you were smoking is like a literally like a, like Parmesan cheese or something. I didn't mean that as a joke,

Moby (00:55:17):

To be fair. It is pretty funny. <Laugh>. Yeah,

Hunter (00:55:18):

No, I, I, I agree. It's funny, but if you, if you recognize people that are addicts see it as being kind of funny because they recognize, like they can relate in ways. <Affirmative> to, to that like this obsession that leads you to do just demeaning things. You,

Moby (00:55:33):

And also the stories that we've heard. Yeah. In, I mean, like, it's one of my favorite things. I mean, there's so many great things and I'm aa is great, NA is great. All the 12 step programs are great. If people can get sober without them, that's great too. That's great too. But boy, some of the stories, there's, there is, I actually heard the remarkable story in DC from a very well-known politician we're not allowed to name his name. And he at one point said that he was such an addict that his favorite thing to do was to fill a syringe with opiates and stim, like whatever he get his hands on, but like opiates and meth or opiates and cocaine. Yeah. And he would in congress, in his like congressional bathroom, shoot himself up in his neck and watch himself pass out in the mirror. Yeah. I, I mean, I don't know percentage wise, but it seems like a significant percentage of people who are elected members of well elected politicians are in recovery. Yeah. I mean, based on meetings we've gone to in DC like,

Hunter (00:56:35):

Well, let's hope they're in recovery. Yeah. a lot of 'em aren't. But the, my point is, is that the people that read that in there was a cobre kind of humor to it, right? But what these people have taken, I, I use that as an example because these people have taken it as being like, like, what a moron. You know, like the, all the memes of me, like smoking Parmesan cheese. Like what, like have

Moby (00:56:59):

You considered? Yeah. Perhaps launching a product of like Jean <laugh>, Jean Parmesan,

Lindsay (00:57:05):

Parmesan cheese. I'll say Hunter, though. Like, and Moby can attest Yeah. When you're the man in the arena. Yeah. It's a thing that happens that you've decided to be brave and to put yourself in a position of being perceived, which you were already thrown into, and you're just making the best of it. Yeah. But you decided to say, I have a voice and I'm gonna own it. And unfortunately everyone has an opinion, and some of those opinions are dumb or hateful. You know? It's, people are hurting and they want other people to hurt too. A

Moby (00:57:36):

Hurt people hurt people.

Lindsay (00:57:37):

Exactly. And I think that they don't know what to do with their own pain. And maybe they're not addicted to a drug, but maybe they are addicted to inflicting their hurt on other people. Oh,

Hunter (00:57:47):

I absolutely, I'm positive of that is that if you can't look at some of these people like Margie Taylor Greene or Paul Goza, and see someone that, that have been bullied <Affirmative> that are, that are just absolutely suffering. They're suffering people. And that doesn't, anyway, excuse the things that they have done to others and to me. But you see people that are in anguish, they're not healthy people. And so back to your question, recognizing your resentments and trying to let them go, that's the way that I do it, way that I do it, is, number one, I recognize that none of this is, is necessarily about me. They are trying to, in the, in, in their most illegitimate way, but rational way, they're trying to destroy a presidency. And so it's not about me and their most base way.

Hunter (00:58:47):

What they're trying to do is they're trying to kill me, knowing that it will be a pain greater than my father could be able to handle. And so therefore destroying a presidency in that way. And so I realized that, that it's not about me. And then the second thing that I realized is that these people are just sad, very, very sick people that have most likely just faced traumas in their lives, that they've decided that they are going to turn into Ed evil. That they decide that they're gonna inflict on, on the rest of the world.

Moby (00:59:25):

Yeah. I, I remember seeing that as a bumper sticker when I was in high school. And I like that you point out the surprising simplicity of those AA slogans, but I remember seeing a bumper sticker hurt people, hurt people, and it for decades. It just never made sense to me. Yeah. And then a, an ex-girlfriend of mine, we were writing a song together and she came up with the best lyric, and I wish I had used it. The only song she ever wrote. And it, the, the line was, are you hurt enough to justify how you can be so cruel? Oof. And I was like, are you talking about me? 'cause At the time I was definitely not at my best. Yeah. And it's, it's really hard, like finding the compassion is I I, yeah. If you can find the compassion for the Paul Gosar and Lauren Bobert and Marjorie Taylor Greens and Kerry Lakes of the world, you are a far better person than I. My response is just simply be like, oh, these are, you know, broken human beings and the best thing I can do is live a good life and not pay attention to them.

Lindsay (01:00:27):

But also they're from, and I'm from the south from Texas, and my mom told me the story that I feel like kind of sums it up, where there's this culture of toughen up and don't feel the feeling. And it evolves into this terrible anguish for your entire life where any feeling you don't understand turns into rage for something outside of you. My mom told a story about a family that lives down the road who their daughter was afraid to go hunting with them. She was afraid to hurt the animals. And so they trapped a raccoon. She was six. Ugh. And they forced her to shoot the raccoon in the cage.

Hunter (01:01:03):

Jesus Christ

Lindsay (01:01:04):

People. And this is the thing that's done regularly. This is not, and and she was applauded, the family was applauded by others in the neighborhood. 'cause They were like, yeah, that'll get her to go hunting with you now. She won't be a, and it's like, no, that girl's traumatized and won't know what to do with it because there's no infrastructure for healing that kind of trauma. Yeah. Where my family is from. And

Moby (01:01:22):

I think I assume that that girl grew up to be Marjorie Taylor Greene <laugh>.

Lindsay (01:01:26):

Well, well, this happened recently. This happened about two years ago.

Moby (01:01:28):

Okay. So Lauren Bobert. Yeah.

Lindsay (01:01:30):

<Laugh> <laugh>.

Hunter (01:01:32):

That was pretty quick. But that's okay. But that's exactly it, Lindsay, is that so much of what's happening right now in this country is exactly that. Is that there is this underlying sickness has been released. And I mean, it's not like we have to go, you know, make our mind stretch to see how it was released. It was released in the form of the most important public figure in America, the President of the United States. And when he became president of the United States, he gave voice and he gave license to all of those feelings of rage as being legitimate, as being okay. And here I'm gonna give you, I'm gonna tell you who to hate. And so then he would go up and I wasn't the only one, but he went, you know, at least 400 times in the 2020 campaign, remember? It was Wear Hunter.

Hunter (01:02:33):

They sold millions of dollars of merchandise with t-shirts. Why do people show up at my door? Because the president of the United States was going to rallies with 8,000 people that he called 45,000 people. And Fox News running it from the time he stepped on stage to the time he left the building and saying, "Where's Hunter? Where's Hunter?" So there you go. Where's your hate? And okay, here's why you hate him. Here's the reason you hate him is because he is a pedophile. Which by the way, this whole idea that this, this may not in every aspect be a Russian disinformation campaign, but it has literally every earmark <laugh> of what the Russians did. Yeah. There's what's it called? It's called eliminationist rhetoric. Eliminationist rhetoric was something that the Nazis came up with as a, as a tool to, to undermine their political rivals.

Hunter (01:03:22):

And then Putin is fine tuned it. And what Putin did when he was coming to power in the early two thousands, was there were still some real significant voices of some in some with real money and intellectual public standing inside of Russia or living as expatriates that were speaking out against Putin. So what did he do? He didn't argue with them on the merits. He didn't argue with them about economic policy and democracy and the freedom to vote because he knew he'd lose that argument. So what did he do? He labeled them pedophiles. He planted child pornography on their laptops and their computers. And so maybe only 10% of the people then in the public would believe this. But then when he would turn around after he got 10, 15, 20% of the people believe in the worst thing you can possibly think about a human being, then when he turns around and said, and also he's a money launderer and he is against the Russian people, it's a lot easier for them to believe that.

Hunter (01:04:22):

And all of a sudden you have an entire state media and an operation that is able to focus all of that, and they just keep flooding the zone and flooding the zone, as Steve Bannon says, and flooding the zone. Then what do you have? You have your ready-made target for all of the things that are wrong with your life. For all the rage that you feel as a 6-year-old child that put through the trauma of shooting that raccoon in the cage, you all of a sudden know who to take it out on, because the most important person in the world is telling you that's who you take it out on. And

Moby (01:04:52):

Also the power of a simple, dramatic narrative,

Lindsay (01:04:56):

Even if it doesn't make sense Yeah. To have the simplicity of this is what it is. And if you look into it, it might not make sense, but you gotta believe you gotta have faith in me. Here you go.

Hunter (01:05:05):

And the Biden crime family. Okay. The Biden crime family,

Moby (01:05:08):

By the way, you guys as a crime family are really saddest crime, <laugh>

Hunter (01:05:13):

History. No, but really think about this. Okay. My dad has been a senator since I was two years old. He has released decades worth of his tax returns. He has lived in the public light. We have lived in the public light. We have gone through four presidential campaigns. My entire life has been before the public. It took until, oh, lo and behold, Donald Trump figured out that somehow this is a criminal enterprise. <Laugh>, I mean, are like, I mean, Vegas credulity. But we sit here and we talk about it, and I turn on a B, c Face Nation this morning or see, and they're talking about, well, hunter Biden's plea deal and this, that, and the other thing. And who knows what happens with James Comer? And they may fine. Are you kidding me? I mean, I really just like, okay, we're gonna talk about Ukraine again. Really? Yeah. <Laugh>, really?

Moby (01:05:58):

But these narratives, they don't have anything else. Like they're wrong on foreign policy. They're wrong on climate, they're wrong on guns, they're wrong on education, they're wrong on healthcare. I mean, you name it, everything. So like, it's almost as if like it's a point of pride for them to be wrong. So what they do instead is just create these arbitrary narratives and repeat, and repeat and repeat with the understanding that if the narrative is simple, if it doesn't involve too many syllables, they really do like monosyllabic words. Keep it simple, keep it dramatic and repeated enough. The Steve Bannon thing of Flood the zone. And eventually Yeah. People

Hunter (01:06:38):

Seeps in Yeah. Becomes part of the, but I think's becomes, yeah,

Lindsay (01:06:40):

It's projection. Everything,

Hunter (01:06:42):

Everything. Projection, everything. He says confession. He's

Lindsay (01:06:45):

Like to say crime family. It's like, bro,

Moby (01:06:47):

Really? Yeah. Yeah. It's like you're, yeah, he's working where,

Hunter (01:06:50):

But then where am I left? I'm left and literally comparing myself then to Jared Kushner, and it's like, are you frigging kidding me? You're left.

Moby (01:06:57):

Are you kidding me? You're left sitting here with us eating vegan crumb cake.

Hunter (01:07:01):

Yeah. Or by the way,

Moby (01:07:01):

Looking at paintings, having like, the breeze is coming in. Let's,

Hunter (01:07:05):

But you know,

Moby (01:07:06):

Happy, but

Hunter (01:07:06):

You are right. Is that everything with them is, here comes

Moby (01:07:09):

Beau's. Hi. Bye. Little hippie child. Beau, you want more crumb cake?

Hunter (01:07:14):

No, he just needed a soda. Can this one? I think this one's the best. Yeah, he did soda water.

Moby (01:07:20):

So I wanna, okay, wait,

Hunter (01:07:21):

Wait, wait, wait. One thing I wanted to say about all of that. Okay. Okay. What's the best example of the absurdity of the way in which they focus the American people's ire? My best example is transgender people. Okay. Here are the stats. 0.06% of people in America identify as transgender. By the way, that doesn't even mean that they have gone through any medical process. It

Moby (01:07:50):

Identify as non-binary.

Hunter (01:07:50):

Yeah. 0.06%. And by the way, that doesn't even mean surgical care. And we're sitting here talking about the revolution in, in high school sports when transgender, it is literally, what, how much time do we spend on does Fox News spend talking about transgender people? How much time does Ron DeSantis talk about transgender people? Sure. You can have a debate about whether it's right for an Olympic athlete who transitioned post puberty. You know what, that's already taken care of. The international sporting organizations have said that you can't do that. Okay. So what, what is the problem? Here's a great way to put this about transgender. All of this talk about bathrooms. Can you believe that? Go in the bathroom. I saw this, this woman had this great image that she used a graphic that showed four transgender women, okay. That would be going into women's bathrooms.

Hunter (01:08:44):

People that had transitioned between men to women. Okay. And then it showed four transgender men. Okay. That had gone from being women to men. And the guys looked like big guys <laugh>. Yeah. The women looked like very feminine women. Okay. And she said, okay, you want us to switch back to back? Do you wanna say that the, the woman who's now a man should go back into the woman's bathroom when she looks like me, like hunter <laugh>. It just makes no sense. They make no sense whatsoever. But they need villains. They need, they, that's exactly right. They

Moby (01:09:24):

Need's it's simple storytelling. And also, I will say, for example, like, let's look at Ron DeSantis, governor Florida and his entire platform, he was wrong on Covid. And he's going after Disney, going after libraries, going after drag queens and going after transgender people and pro slavery <laugh>. Yeah. Meanwhile, the ocean around Florida is as

Hunter (01:09:49):

Hot boiling <laugh>.

Moby (01:09:50):

It's as hot as a bathtub. It's a hundred degrees. And while he was governor, parts of his state were rendered uninhabitable because of climate fueled hurricanes. So, so it's, it's not just that they need the narratives, it's, they have everything significant they're wrong about Yeah. You know, they're wrong on guns, they're wrong on climate, they're wrong on education. I mean, and Hunter, to your point about like inconsistencies, I would say that the two others that sort of the three that stand out to me are being anti-immigrant in a nation of immigrants. They're anti-immigrant. For people who identify as pro-life, they support no regulation around automatic weapons and guns. And for Christians, they stand 180 degrees opposed to everything Jesus actually said. So it's almost, they're like, their pride is being wrong. Like it's holding onto these ideas and it's just categorically wrong.

Hunter (01:10:50):

One of the things that we talk about all the time, and I try to remind everybody, is that we're talking about at most 20% of the population, <Affirmative>, 80% of Americans believe in red flag laws. 80% of Americans believe that there should be a restriction on who owns a an automatic weapon. <Affirmative>, 80% of Americans, maybe it's 80, maybe it's 75, believe that basically we should, should live under the rules of ro. Right. So what we're talking about, just a woman should be able to make her own medical decisions. To make her own medical decisions. Exactly. And so what we're really talking about, right, is we're talking about 15% of the, of the country is controlling 85% of the, of the discourse. That's what's happening. And so what happens, here's what happens. Fox News pumps it out, mainlining this stuff into that 15, 20%.

Hunter (01:11:46):

Remember, there's only about 3 million viewers a day for Fox News. 3 million, 3 million people. Okay? But then it goes from there and it goes to every social media feed, and it goes to all of these people and it goes to that 15%. And what that 15% does is they are so outrageous that then on M-S-N-B-C and CNN and all the other mainstreams, they report on that 15% And they report on how insane it is and crazy that the America is fighting over whether or not we should be narrative dealing with the, that the narrative keeps going. Yeah. And it just keeps going. Yep. And it keeps going, feeds itself, and it keeps

Lindsay (01:12:19):

Going feed itself from the outside. Everyone's to blame. Yeah,

Hunter (01:12:22):

Exactly. And that is the way in which we end up in a situation where every election now feels as if it is life or death. <Affirmative>, it feels as if, and so you have these passions that run so high and people that are legitimately culturally conservative Republicans, the people that I grew up with, that I was friends with, that I love, that I respect, that I think are good people, even though they're wrongheaded as it relates to the tax policy, or even what they thought about Roe v. Wade, or even what they thought about whether or not we should be investing as much money in climate change as we should. They may have been wrong, but you know what? I, I still could go to dinner with them. Now, what I represent to them, if they've stuck with these people, their existential threat, like I was saying before, who am I to the person that has been fed all of this disinformation and legitimately believes it, I am the embodiment of evil.

Hunter (01:13:30):

If you believe that I am draining the blood of infants for Adrenochrome, then what is your other option as a moral upstanding human being? It is to stand up to that. And so what do you do? You pick up a hammer and you go beat Paul Pelosi over the head, and then you get interviewed by the police and you say, well, who are your other targets? And it's, hunter Biden was my other target. And then you have Elon Musk tweeting out that, and then you have the people that are the most culpable of all. You have the people that literally just love to feed it because they think that it is some kind of a game. <affirmative> they think that it is some, like, the one thing about Elon Musk that I'm certain of is there's another very damaged human being. Yes. And he is, I say that he is the dumbest smart person. I think that the world has ever known to be

Moby (01:14:20):

Fair, there are a lot of dumb smart people.

Hunter (01:14:22):

No, I know. But he now represents me. I would say Ru

Moby (01:14:25):

Rupert Murdoch is there, there, you know, but

Hunter (01:14:27):

You know what it's like Elon Musk doesn't care about the First Amendment. He doesn't care about anybody but himself. And so all of this idea that he's a champion for the First Amendment and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Elon Musk doesn't care about democracy. Elon Musk doesn't care about our freedom to vote. He doesn't care about that. Is there any time that you've ever saw anything from him that has any rational defense of democracy, of what we've created here as Americans as his adopted country? This incredible experiment that we have engaged in here that has not even remotely been perfect, but it is a miracle. It is a miracle after 250 years that we are still here and we are actually holding elections and we are growing towards a greater freedom after every generation. It's a miracle. Do you think that he caress in any way about that? No. He's much as he

Moby (01:15:26):

Cares about, he's about throwing libertarian.

Hunter (01:15:27):

Exactly. Yeah. And so my point is, it just happens to be right now, the loudest voices in the room. So what do you have? What do you do in response to that? Going back to your question of what is my role? Don't I have to start to be able to, to write my own story, which you did. I want to do that, but don't wanna, but I don't wanna do it for my own self edification. I don't wanna do a, a defensive hunter podcast. I don't want to spend my time doing anything other than being of service to people. And if my voice is not an additive to that, then I don't wanna be a part of this, of, of this clown show. I don't want to engage on social media just for the sake that maybe I will burnish my poll numbers a little bit. Screw that. Because number one, nobody's voting for my dad because of me or not. That's the truth. I am. Yeah. Well, thank you, <laugh>.

Moby (01:16:20):

But,

Hunter (01:16:20):

But my point is, to

Moby (01:16:21):

Be fair, I probably would've voted for him anyway, is it?

Hunter (01:16:23):

But is that I believe in this country, I deeply, deeply believe in this country. There was a period of time, and I know we have this discussion all the time, Moby, is, are we still proud to be Americans? And I sometimes am so ashamed at what some Americans are putting us through, but I am so proud to be an American. I'm so proud of this country with all of its faults, with all of its failings. Okay. I am proud of the accomplishments my dad has been able to achieve in the midst of all of this insanity. I am proud that we're standing up for freedom against Russia right now. I am proud that we've rallied the entirety of NATO in Europe and the rest of the world against a despot. I am proud of these things. That's America at its greatest. I'm proud in the investment that we're making into climate change for the first time ever, ever. I'm proud of those things and I wanna remain proud of 'em. And I don't want to be just come another voice to decide that I'm gonna subject the American people to my musings because my dad's president of the United States. I know what I can talk about. I can talk about what it's like to be an addict and how you try to survive and recover. I can talk about that and maybe me telling my story, what I able be able to do is to help somebody else that's suffering. That's what I know I can do.

Moby (01:17:57):

So that was part one of our conversation with Hunter. I hope you enjoyed listening as much as we enjoyed being in his studio and eating vegan cupcakes and eating the magical tangerines that just sort of showed up outta nowhere. And part two will be our next episode.

Lindsay (01:18:15):

So come back next week and we will continue our conversation with Hunter and get to spend some time with the human being behind the crazy headlines.

Moby (01:18:27):

And to say thank you to Jonathan Nesvadba, who came with us to Hunter's Studio and ate the vegan cupcakes and quietly, humbly recorded our conversation and also then has edited the conversation and has added the music. So thank you Jonathan. And thank you also to human content. And thank you to Hunter and his lovely wife Melissa, for making us feel welcome and loaning us a remarkable, beautiful piece of art that we're gonna post a picture of in social media. So thank you everybody, and we will talk to you in one week with the second part of our conversation with Hunter.