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026 - Hunter Biden (Part 2)

Moby (00:00):

Hi, and welcome to another episode of Moby Pod. More specifically part two of our conversation with Hunter Biden. And before we get into that conversation, I just want to address the fact that part one of the conversation definitely reached way more people than we had imagined, and it elicited more of a reaction than we had imagined. Uh, it seems like almost every media outlet on the planet somehow wrote something about our conversation with Hunter, which is so, I guess interesting is one way to look at it, but it's also really baffling because when Lindsay and I decided to go up to Hunter's house and, and talk to him, the goal was pretty humble and simple. It was to show the hunter that we know. You know, I met Hunter in recovery a while ago, and we became friends, you know, people who'd battled addiction, people who'd battled the demons of addiction and the friendships that oftentimes result from that.

Moby (01:14):

And honestly, the majority of the time that Hunter and I spent as friends was we spent just doing really mundane, pleasant stuff. You know, like drinking mediocre coffee or playing ridiculous games of pinging pong or talking about books or eating vegan pizza, just banal, quiet, simple stuff. And the hunter I came to know was, I don't know. I mean, I know people are very judgemental and people have very strong opinions, but the hunter I got to know was smart and self-deprecating and funny and creative, and just kind of humble. And it was really hard for me to reconcile that, to reconcile the hunter that I had come to know with the way in which he was presented and portrayed in the media. You know, 'cause to state the obvious right wing media especially has portrayed him as some sort of strange Bengali criminal demon. And I just can't reconcile that with my friend from recovery who sits in his garage drinking instant coffee and painting pictures of hummingbirds beautiful hummingbirds.

Moby (02:26):

To be clear. And the other thing I wanna say before we get into the conversation, or back into the conversation is Lindsay and I very specifically picked this time of year to release these episodes. It's December, and for a lot of people, it's a very holy time of year. And another thing, I don't want to be just the old guy sitting here pontificating and being super opinionated about everything, but it's also been incredibly confusing watching spiritual people indulge in judgment, because I am passingly familiar with a lot of the world's spiritual traditions, even the more secular ones. And I don't know of any of them that call on us to judge strangers or to judge people when they're vulnerable or to just judge. I mean, it's a pretty basic part of the teachings of Christ in the New Testament, for example, thou shalt not judge lest ye be judged. And it's very confusing, especially watching right-wing Christians sit in judgment and never seemingly to be held to account. Like, where, where is the person in the media standing up and saying, Hey, um, you, you're a Christian, which is fine, but where in the teachings of Christ does he call upon his followers to judge strangers, and to condemn people who are struggling with the human condition? Okay, that's me getting on my soapbox. Let's get back into the conversation with me and Lindsay and Hunter and mediocre coffee.

Moby (04:14):

So I just wanna go over a few lighthearted things while we eat our vegan cupcakes.

Hunter (04:20):

If you must,

Moby (04:22):

You must. Okay. The first question, sorry, I don't, maybe this is a a bad question, but have you figured out who you're gonna vote for in the next elect <laugh>?

Lindsay (04:29):

Well, we don't know who's on the other side yet, so Yeah,

Hunter (04:32):

No, I'm pretty sure. Yep.

Moby (04:34):

Okay. Who, who might, who are you thinking

Hunter (04:36):

Voting for? That would be, um, uh, Joe Biden.

Moby (04:38):

Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. You guys, you guys have the same last name. Yeah,

Hunter (04:42):

Exactly. So we are, it's so weird.

Lindsay (04:45):

We're the odds.

Moby (04:45):

And then so art as refuge. Yep. So how many paintings do you think you make in a year?

Hunter (04:54):

Oh, uh, at least 50.

Moby (04:56):

And where can people see them

Hunter (04:58):

At the Burgess Gallery? George Burgess in New York is my gallerist. It's a wonderful, wonderful person, has become an incredible friend and, and ports me in ways that, uh, just our, just his insight into art and the direction I go with paintings. And he's just always so positive about everything that I do. You know, he makes me feel like every piece of art that I send him is a masterpiece, which is really cool to feel.

Lindsay (05:24):

But it actually they are. That's because when I, when I think actually the first time we met was at the gallery that

Hunter (05:31):

Oh, the show, the show that I did at Milk Studios.

Lindsay (05:33):

Yeah, yeah. The show at Milk Studios.

Hunter (05:34):

They're wonderful people.

Lindsay (05:35):

And I, I didn't look at your work before I went and I walked in and was, honestly, I was overwhelmed Okay. With how beautiful your, your work was and how it seemed to kind of glow from behind and jump off of, you know, whatever you had painted on. Yeah, it was, it was incredible. I was so impressed and surprised by how beautiful and detailed and emotional your work

Hunter (05:59):

Was. Yeah, no, that makes me very happy to hear. And

Lindsay (06:02):

Thank you. But my, my question is, when did you, when did you start painting? How long have you been doing this?

Hunter (06:08):

Well, my whole life I've painted, um, my whole life I've made art. You know, anyone in my family, it would tell you that they know since I was a, a kid that if I had my druthers, I would be an artist. And, you know, but then life interrupts those kinds of dreams for some people, not for Moby <laugh>, you know? And I mean that in the best sense of the word is that people, I, I so admire people that have the courage at a young age to do what is absolutely the most difficult thing, which is to make yourself vulnerable to the world through something that is as important and, uh, central to, to your being personal as your art. And, and that's why I have great respect for all artists that have the courage to do that.

Moby (06:59):

I wish we were filming this while you were paying me that what was sort of a really lovely compliment. I had food literally falling out of my house.

Hunter (07:08):

I know. So that's just about as much as I think that you respect anything that I say. No, I respect everything

Moby (07:16):

You say,

Hunter (07:17):

But I, I really do. And so for me, I didn't, I, I didn't for whatever reason, you know, do that. I didn't take that courageous step into sharing my art and my imagination with anybody outside of maybe my brother, um, and some other people, um, that I trusted that were kind of unconditionally say. That's amazing. And so I always wrote, I always wrote, um, poetry, and I always, and I've always painted, I always tried to carve out a space and wherever I lived to be able to, to do those things. But I also had a job and I was a lawyer. Like,

Moby (07:56):

I look at your art and I see like there's a Seurat, Georges Seurat. Who are some of your favorite visual artists?

Hunter (08:03):

Well, the, let's see, I think that, um, one of my favorite artists is your one is Beau Biden, is Baby Beau Biden. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Thanks buddy. I love you, buddy. Thank

Lindsay (08:16):

You so much, Beau.

Hunter (08:17):

Um, but, uh, when I was grown up, one of the, the coolest places that I'd liked to go to all the time, because it was 20 minutes from my house, was the Brandywine River Museum and the Brandywine River Museum started by the Wyeth family. And I love the work of not just Andrew Wyeth, but also son Jamie and Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> in particular. NC Wyeth, and a lot of his illustrations. And they, they're not necessarily reflected in my art, but that was my special place to go, even as a kid. Hmm. Is I, it's a, it's amazing. And, and okay, so you grew up in Delaware? Yeah. What town? In Wilmington. Okay. Which is, um, right on the border with Pennsylvania and Chads Ford, where the wise in that area, where I'm from. And then I love David Hockney. I who, um, and I particularly even grew to love even more when I came to California and his paintings that are, are reflected in the, the Hollywood Hills and where he lived and his incredible landscapes of these distorted landscapes of like Mulholland Drive and things like that, that I think are just absolutely fascinating.

Hunter (09:28):

I also think that David Hockney as a, his longevity and his willingness to experiment and do things as relates to photography and what he's doing with an iPad right now, as he's become older, he's still, he's still alive. And I believe he still lives, lives in la No, he's, he's, um, he's living now in Normandy. Oh, okay. And, um, and anyway, so there is, um, David Hockney, I love a, an artist named Richard Diebenkorn, who is a, um, who was, um, a, um, he does these kind of out of perspective landscape, distorted landscape paintings that I find incredibly simple. I know that this is, sounds maybe a little esoteric, but the power of a, of a, of a, of a Rothko painting, these color field paintings, I think that if you only see them, um, on a computer screen or on your phone, it's so easy to say, I could do that.

Hunter (10:22):

And you could do that <laugh> to some degree. I mean, it's just literally sometimes two colors on a, on a canvas. But if you stand in front of one, as I have, it is, it is an, it is a truly an emotional experience. And I do really believe in the idea that, that what art really is is not what I am trying to say to you, but what you feel when you are, uh, standing in front of whatever that piece of art is. And so there's a lot of, uh, abstract artists to that degree that I, that I just find their courage to be like, I, whatever you think, I mean, I, if you ever stood in front of that gigantic painting and the like, and I know as an artist you think that you can do that, but I promise you, you cannot.

Hunter (11:09):

I mean, I've tried Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> you cannot, you cannot recreate that composition that somehow comes together in the drip paintings that he does. And I know people that are understandably say like, well, what the hell is that? Well, when you practice art in the way that I do, I paint when I'm not forcibly distracted by the other things in my life. Like me texting, I'm talking about the outside things, not my family thing. I like distracted by me texting. Yeah. I'm not distracted by you texting me. Um, you know, I paint at least eight hours a day, you know, which I love. But Moby and I kind of have the same pattern, and like, we can text early in the morning, and then I know Moby goes into a studio. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I go into my, into my studio. And I just love that.

Hunter (11:56):

And by the way, I never intended for this to be a commercial enterprise, but I met George far before my dad had even, um, uh, announced that he was running, wait, no. That he'd already announced, but he was, no one thought that he was going to go the distance. And, and George and I just kept, George Burgess kept up this, this dialogue. And it was the first time that I ever had someone that had the chops to be critical, that I trusted to see and comment on what I was doing. And it just was so encouraging through some of the hardest periods of time because I, I needed that. It is my meditation, it is that space of freedom between stimulus and response. And the reason why I produce as much as I produce is because it is a burning need to stay on the canvas, stay focused on the canvas. And I'm never allow myself this, well, I don't know what I'm gonna paint today. I pick up a paintbrush and I start, and it's really amazing.

Lindsay (12:59):

It seems like something really special happens because I know a lot of people who are attempting to be creative have a lot of trouble with motivation and blocks. And it sounds like what you're saying is it doesn't matter if you're, if you're feeling blocked, you just start Well,

Hunter (13:14):

The gift of desperation, <laugh>. And that's really truly what it is. You remember we were talking about the out of disaster miracles. Mm-Hmm. And one of the miracles is, is that I was newly clean and I was in this house up in the Hollywood Hills, and it was just me and Melissa, and she knew that I was not, I was not ready for anything on the outside. I had asked her if she could get me YUPO paper, which is certain type of, kind of, I think originally Japanese kind of plasticy paper and alcohol inks, which I had been experimenting for in the past. And I said, maybe I'd go back. I need, I need to do

Moby (13:53):

Something. Did she say alcohol?

Hunter (13:54):

Yeah, alcohol.

Hunter (13:55):

<laugh>. Yes, exactly.

Hunter (13:58):

And, um, and, and the miracle was, is that it was the answer and it'd been in front of me forever. And I never had the courage to do it. And I didn't have the courage to do it because I, I wasn't broken enough. But I was so broken that literally I finally got to chose the life that I, I had never had the strength, the courage to choose for myself before. And I never go back.

Moby (14:23):

I mean, it's the, and we've talked about this, and I think you include this in the book, the Hemmingway quote. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Do you know Lindsay? Do you know the Hemmingway quote? I know

Lindsay (14:30):

A few. Which one are you referring to? Oh, the,

Moby (14:32):

Yeah. And I even,

Hunter (14:34):

You want us to list of Hemmingway quotes

Hunter (14:36):

Such and pretty <laugh>, is that what he's doing? He's delaying because he is trying to make sure

Hunter (14:41):

He gets

Hunter (14:41):

It right. Right. I'm like, hold on, hold on. Google, Google, Google.

Moby (14:45):

Yeah. Uh, no, the world breaks most of us, but some of us are stronger in the broken places,

Hunter (14:49):

Something like that. He's paraphrasing, but yeah, <laugh>, it's the

Moby (14:51):

Idea that good enough. And there is, I mean, there is a fascinating aspect to what you're saying. Like when you said, you know, that you were broken by addiction, broken by the world, broken by all these things, then Melissa basically sequestered you and cloistered you. And your response was to start painting. I'm just thinking of all the amazing sort of historical precedent and literary precedent for people being returned to the path that they're supposed to be on.

Hunter (15:23):

That's exactly right. You know,

Moby (15:25):

And then sometimes, I mean, think of like, I mean, how many biblical stories are there about that? Like the person who just keeps trying to like, get off the path that they're supposed to be on and how God or the universe, whomever, pushes people back onto the path. Yeah.

Hunter (15:40):

And so, and, and that is the choice. It's the, you know, the, the, I love Joseph Campbell and his writings and, and

Lindsay (15:47):

Hero's journey and

Hunter (15:48):

Yeah. Hero journey. Um, the hero with a thousand cases. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I loved that, that whole Bill Moyer series. Remember that with Joseph Campbell. And I just find his, uh, way of using mythology and history and, and to inform what is inside of everyone. And the thing that I am positive on is that once you are on the path, it's impossible not to see it. And no matter how hard this is where your choice comes in, is that on that path, there are obstacles. It's, it's the, the mythology of every hero's journey. There are obstacles and we all face these existential threats in our lives. Well, I've gone through mine and I still continue to go through them today, but I know the path and I know what I need to do. I just need to stay on the path. And so that's a choice that I have every morning. I have every morning of whether or not I want to continue on the hero's path, and not that I'm a hero, but continue on the hero's path or whether I'm do the easier thing and step off. And I'm not gonna step off today. I'm not stepping off. You

Lindsay (16:55):

Talk about all of the hardship that you've been through and how this art came from a, a difficult time, you know, when you were cloistered away, but everything I see is so, there's so much joy Yeah. In your art. There's so much beauty and brightness. Yeah.

Moby (17:11):

Yeah. You remind, it reminds me a little bit, Lindsay. I completely agree. Um, one of our shared dear friends is Robert Russell. And during the

Hunter (17:20):

Pandemic, who by the way, is one of the most amazing artists, a lot,

Lindsay (17:24):

He's brilliant. Truly brilliant. Yeah.

Moby (17:26):

Yep. Such, I mean,

Hunter (17:27):

If I could, if I could do what, what, what Robert did, I would die a happy man <laugh>. Um, I mean, it, he's amazing.

Moby (17:33):

So during the pandemic, I think he was, I mean, I don't wanna speak for him, but like, he was faced with a lot of challenges as a lot of people were during the pandemic, but also like some existential challenges about, you know, like his career aging. And he was in kind of, I think a, a place of struggle. And he produced those teacup paintings, which they sort of need to be experienced in person 'cause they're gigantic. But it reminds me in a way of what, of, in terms of subject matter, one of the things I love about art, and this is very self-evident, is that everything is intentional. You know, the, the choice of the subject matter, the size, the color, everything is an, is the artist's intent. Um, even if it's abstract, even if it's, you know, de Kooning or whomever. So when Robert painted these teacups, they're so big and they're so powerful, but they're so delicate. It's perfect. And I lo like for example, like the whole time we've been talking over your shoulder is a giant luminescent hummingbird, and there's something so symbolic. And Beau, I don't know if it's, so let me, okay. Sorry, I'm rambling on like a crazy person. I've had a lot of caffeine and some, some vegan cupcakes with sugar. So, and

Hunter (18:52):

Your

Moby (18:52):

Movie? Uh, yeah. And I'm a lunatic <laugh>. Uh, yeah. Yeah. Inbreeding and syphilis are bad combination. Oh my God. Chiefs. So, uh, so the hummingbird behind you Yes. Why is it there? And can just, just maybe can we wrap up with this? Just tell me about that painting. 'cause the whole time, I'm, it, to me, it seems weirdly there's just such a symbolism, but I'm again, okay. I Why I'm asking you a question that I'm the one answering the question. So rather than me ramble on answering the question, I

Hunter (19:23):

Get it. Yeah, yeah. Well, the easy answer is, is that I'm surrounded by nature and I'm surrounded by hummingbirds <laugh>. And, um, I

Moby (19:32):

Way to shoot down my question. Thanks. I'm looking for insight. No,

Hunter (19:35):

But, but I mean that, like, there's a part of it that's very, that practical answer to what comes in to your consciousness at any moment that I find then I become obsessed with on a canvas and hummingbirds were one of them. But to the deeper question, you would think that someone that has gone through the darkness that I describe in my book, that my paintings would, would be when, when I, when I decided to reveal myself through my art, that that's what they would reflect. But I've had a lot of time to think about that. And what I think is, is that I've seen the darkness. I've visited that place. I never want to go back. And it's not a place that I want the world to experience what I have experienced in recovery. And the expression of my art is a reflection of the light, the beautiful things, the reason to have hope that everything that I paint is some kind of an abstract version of something beautiful.

Hunter (20:47):

And that hummingbird and the ones next to it, and <laugh> the bird with the outreach, I think that in in particular, birds are kind of the, the greatest kind of harbinger of, of, of hope in some ways. And so I got really obsessed with, with birds for a long time, and I still am to a certain degree in my paintings, but they all have deep, deep, deep, deep meaning for me. And it's the escape, the escape from the depths, it's the escape from that prison. That was my darkness. That was a, um, that I, I am so grateful to have been saved from, saved by all the people that love me. All the people that refused to let me go are truly hip bottom. And to me, that's why after every painting, it is almost this euphoria, even though sometimes I may paint over that painting when I realize it wasn't the masterpiece that I thought it was. But every time that I finish, I think it is the most beautiful thing that I've ever created. And what an, what an amazing, um, what an amazing thing to be able to do with your life. I feel grateful and, um, and just so filled with gratitude. And by the way, gratitude that you said all those beautiful things about it too. Thank you, Lindsay. Yes. I

Lindsay (22:13):

Mean it, I I think we, I have, I just have a question. I would say, I mean, as you know, and I think your book was this incredible act of service to anyone struggling, um, because I think that, you know, coping mechanisms that are toxic aren't always a drug addiction. I can see in my own behavior, addictive habits that aren't drugs, but that are still incredibly harmful and have led me down paths that are not great and have kept me from Yeah. What might be my true purpose or a better calling. You know what I mean? So I think I

Hunter (22:43):

Know exactly what you mean. Yeah. I

Lindsay (22:45):

Think that your, your book was, uh, an act of service in that you were so vulnerable. But also you talk about getting out, and I know you've spoken at length about this, but if to anyone that's struggling with anything, whether it be substance addiction or any kind of habitual behavior that keeps them from finding their true meaning and true purpose outside of a book <laugh> Yeah. And now in this moment, what would you, what would you offer to, to that person?

Hunter (23:19):

Um, two things off the top of my head, and one of the things that I, that I don't ever want to be confused of is being prescriptive for people. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, because everybody has their own recovery. Right. But one of the things that I know is this, all of those behaviors that you're talking about, whether it is an addiction to drugs or an addiction to, um, toxic relationships or an addiction to, um, whatever other behavior that is destructive to you, one thing I'm absolutely certain of is they're all rooted in trauma. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, they're all rooted in a, in an experience in your life that you have not been able to resolve. And one of the things that is absolutely certain, not just by anecdotal evidence, um, but if, uh, if you ever wanna listen to somebody who I think is the smartest person on addiction today talking about it is Dr. Gabor Maté.

Moby (24:11):

Oh, I thought you were gonna say me <laugh>.

Hunter (24:13):

Yeah. And, and, and Moby, Dr. Moby and, and Moby is that, that there is severe trauma. And then the, the second thing is somebody once said to me, and I didn't understand it at the time, it's getting sober, getting clean and sober is easy. All you have to do is change everything <laugh>. And what I know, at least for myself, is that that's what it took. That is what it took. It took me to be so broken that I had no choice but to either save myself or die. And the only way to save myself was to change everything. And some of the things that you have to change, you don't even realize are the, the things that are, that bind you to that old behavior that feel like a real loss. Yeah. Of giving up relationships and people that aren't necessarily toxic in your life or situations or things that you did that you thought were healthy for you before, but you have to change everything.

Hunter (25:10):

And I will say now, in the presence of the person that allowed for me to do that, that did the hard work, and that continues to do the hard work and that sticks by me no matter what, that takes all the slings and arrows is Melissa. Hmm. And in that sense, is it, I don't know how that miracle happened for me. I don't know what guardian angel delivered that to me. And one of the most difficult things is figuring out when they get to be happy, when are they free of this pain that's being inflicted? Hmm. That's hard.

Lindsay (26:00):

Yeah. Hmm.

Hunter (26:04):

That's it. Yeah.

Moby (26:05):

Okay.

Moby (26:15):

Thank you for joining us for this two part episode of Moby Pod with Hunter Biden. And as the year begins to come to a close, we will have one more Moby Pod episode, I assume, in a couple of weeks. And hopefully it will be interesting or relevant or transcendent or transformational or ridiculous or funny or all of the above, or none of the above. I have no idea because we haven't figured out what our year, year end episode is going to be. But thank you for joining us. And just lastly, as the year ends, it's been a stressful couple of years. The human condition is stressful for all of us, as far as I know. At least it's stressful for me, and it's stressful for my friends and my family members. I don't know anyone who's not battling stress and battling anxiety and fear. And all I can say, and perhaps it's very self-evident, is please try to find compassion for yourself and try to find compassion for others and recognize that we're all struggling.

Moby (27:16):

So with that in mind, have a wonderful holiday. And lastly, thank you Jonathan, Nesvadba for recording these episodes and editing these episodes. And thank you, Lindsay, for joining me. And thank you Human Content for taking these episodes and making them available for you to listen to. And thank you for listening. So we'll be back in a couple of weeks. And until then, have a wonderful holiday. Take care of yourself, get lots of sleep. I hope you get to go hiking and spend time with people you love. And we'll see you in a couple weeks. Thank you.