Moby (00:00:06):

Hi, Lindsay. Hi

Lindsay (00:00:08):

Moby. Hi

Moby (00:00:08):

Bagel.

Lindsay (00:00:09):

Hi, Moby.

Moby (00:00:10):

So before we get into today's really interesting conversation, Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I wanted to address that. The last couple weeks have been really busy. We've

Lindsay (00:00:20):

Done a lot.

Moby (00:00:21):

We've

Lindsay (00:00:21):

Done a lot. We've done, you've done a lot. A

Moby (00:00:23):

Lot. So first and foremost, I think what's interesting is we went to Washington DC as lobbyists Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> to lobby the federal government to have plant-based meals at all federal facilities, which

Lindsay (00:00:35):

Is shocking to me in ways that it doesn't exist. But then, you know, I think about some other places I've lived in the country and it's often, yeah. Uh, an afterthought, if not an everth thought.

Moby (00:00:45):

And the, the thing I think is funniest about it is there is one federal institution that has plant-based options for every meal. One

Lindsay (00:00:54):

Of the coziest institutions of all

Moby (00:00:56):

Prisons, <laugh>. So prisons have plant, you can, you can get a plant, you can get a plant-based vegan meal at a federal prison, but not at federal buildings. So,

Lindsay (00:01:06):

I mean, prisons are nothing if not accommodating. Okay.

Moby (00:01:08):

So that was interesting. Then we went to New York and we had a lot of fun, interesting things happen in New York. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>

Lindsay (00:01:14):

Business.

Moby (00:01:15):

And then again, before, I'm trying to rush through this, 'cause I don't want, I don't want to give short shrift to all the stuff that's happened, but we also want to get to our very fascinating conversation with Joe Manganiello. Uh, and before we do, I have a question. What? So, Joe is a friend of mine. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And a friend of yours and a friend of bagels. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> is his last name. Manganiello. Or Manjaniello?

Lindsay (00:01:35):

I've been saying Manganiello because I saw him say that somewhere when I was doing my research.

Moby (00:01:40):

Okay.

Lindsay (00:01:40):

So, um, so Manganiello, what a great guy and a rose by any other name, you know what I mean? And

Moby (00:01:44):

Before we get into our conversation with him, I did wanna mention, so I'm doing my first tour in 10 years,

Lindsay (00:01:52):

And you have mentioned on this podcast a couple of times that you do not really enjoy tour life. So how do you feel about that?

Moby (00:02:01):

Yeah. I love staying home. I love working on music. I love working on animal activism and politics. I love going hiking. I love having smoothies in the morning and reading the New York Times, being on tour, I, I really don't like it. But the way that this tour was quote unquote sold to me, my manager, Eric, who I've worked with for the longest time, I've worked with him for over 30 years. And the way he got me to do the tour, I think was kind of interesting. He basically said, okay, what if we do a short tour and all of your profits go to animal rights organizations? And I think he knew that that's the only thing I couldn't say no to. Like, if he'd said, here's all this money, or we'll have a massage therapist on tour with you, or you get paid in cryptocurrency, the looks like little animatronic space aliens. Like, none of that would've enticed me. But saying to me, you can go on tour, deal with insomnia, and you won't get paid a penny. That's the way he's sold it to me.

Lindsay (00:03:02):

Yeah. I mean, just make it altruistic `and suddenly it's a lot more appealing. And

Moby (00:03:07):

That way I have to do it. I can't cancel because I can cancel or avoid things for myself selfishly. But if I know that there's a way to benefit animals potentially, or benefit animal rights organizations, I can't say no. So

Lindsay (00:03:21):

True. And I love that. And I think it's so unbelievably generous and selfless. But also, can I just say that a 25th anniversary of play is like, I think emotionally and as a milestone, a very big deal that I think it's important to like, you know, commemorate big moments like that.

Moby (00:03:39):

Okay. Um, <laugh> and to, I, I respectfully acknowledge the potential truth in what you've just said.

Lindsay (00:03:47):

Play could rent a car legally now. Wow.

Moby (00:03:50):

<laugh>, that's so old. <laugh>. Uh, and we are going to do a special play 25 Moby Pod event. We are, the only thing is we don't exactly know where and when. So once we know where and when, we'll announce it here first

Lindsay (00:04:05):

And we're gonna sell tickets. So anybody can come

Moby (00:04:07):

And, uh, probably sometime in May or June, late May, or

Lindsay (00:04:11):

We'll figure it out early June, something like that.

Moby (00:04:12):

And also, I just released a song with Lady Blackbird that you DJ'ed with in the last Moby Pod. Mm-Hmm.

Lindsay (00:04:18):

<affirmative> Dark Days, which I love that song. And I know we say it all the time, but like, lady Blackbird is a gift to this planet.

Moby (00:04:26):

She's a one in a billion. I mean, her voice is amazing. Her demeanor is so interesting. It's like she stepped out of a time portal from 1930, but 1930, but also she stepped out of a time portal from 5,000 years in the future. Yeah. Like, I can't, I love that. I can't figure her out. But she's also just unfailingly nice and creative and wonderful. Like, I can't say enough nice things about her. Yeah.

Lindsay (00:04:50):

That I, I feel the same way. And I'm very, very excited about the song. I hope, I hope everybody likes it as much as I like it. 'cause I really like it.

Moby (00:04:58):

<laugh>. Um, and you also had a very active hand in making the video. We walked around Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And we shot stuff, shot a bunch, and we went to Outer Space. We shot some outer space stuff. We shot

Lindsay (00:05:07):

All the way out in outer space.

Moby (00:05:09):

So now, and also you

Lindsay (00:05:10):

Shot a video and you didn't even wear shoes. Yeah.

Moby (00:05:13):

That, that's gross, huh? Yeah.

Lindsay (00:05:15):

That's a, that's free feet. That's Wiki feet right there. <laugh>

Moby (00:05:18):

<laugh>. So now finally we can talk about Joe Manganiello. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And here's why I wanted to talk to Joe, because a lot of people would look at Joe Manganiello and think like, oh, he's like six foot four and the most handsome person on the planet. Like he is the ultimate hunk. He's so much of a hunk. He was one of the leads in Magic Mike. Like, you can't get hunkier than that. Yeah.

Lindsay (00:05:42):

It's ultimate hunks ville.

Moby (00:05:44):

But here's what people are going to learn that we learned in our conversation with Joe. He is a nerd and not a nerd. Like, oh, look at me, I'm such a nerd. Like he's true blue, hardcore nerd

Lindsay (00:05:57):

And committed. Yeah. So committed. Like, let us set the scene walking into Joe's Home where we recorded this episode. What is, would you like to describe the room that you enter into when you walk into Joe's home?

Moby (00:06:10):

Yes. So here's the thing. I, for quite a while have known that Joe is a Dungeons and Dragons enthusiast. And what that usually means is someone like me or Stephen Colbert who like played in junior high school and maybe we have a couple of D&D games in our closet. Joe has the entire downstairs of his home is devoted to D&D. He has a Dungeons and Dragons table,

Lindsay (00:06:37):

The biggest table I've ever seen.

Moby (00:06:38):

It's about 30 feet long covered with D&D stuff. He has every D&D game that's ever been made. Like, it's like, it's a Dungeons and Dragons museum. And he plays Dungeons and Dragons multiple times a week with like this amazing, he's

Lindsay (00:06:53):

Very committed,

Moby (00:06:53):

Wonderful random bunch of people. Uh,

Lindsay (00:06:56):

Can you explain the large, like, busts and

Moby (00:06:59):

Oh, and then he also has figures. Yeah. So I, I can never really pronounce it. Gary Gygax, the guy who sort of invented D&D, he created a lot of monsters for D&D. And so Joe has gigantic heads, obviously not the real monster heads. He has gigantic fake monster heads covering the walls. And

Lindsay (00:07:20):

They're like mounted heads, like a, like a deer or somebody. And they're a crazy person. Might have a deer in their house, but these are the monsters.

Moby (00:07:26):

And luckily they were not hurt. Like the crazy person with the deer would have to hurt the deer to have the deer on the wall. In Joe's case, he just had them made. So he has these giant monsters and then he has freestanding giant monsters. It's unbelievable. So that's his entire ground floor of his house where someone else would have like a man cave with like a pinball machine. And like an ironic neon sign he has over like 1500 square feet of Dungeons and Dragons museum stuff. So that's nerd point number one. But here's the other thing. When I got to know Joe a few years ago, I learned something so interesting. He was a raver. And like, keep in mind, when I was growing up, when I was in high school, and then after that, like the kids like me who were, you know, into punk rock or in then became ravers and were into Dungeons and Dragons, we were the little ones. Like we were the ones who were ignored by everyone. We were, we couldn't play sports, we didn't have girlfriends. We hung out with each other and insulted one another and listened to records and played Dungeons and Dragons. But Joe was that, but he was also the captain of every sports team in his high school. So I, I want to ask him about that. Like, how do you reconcile being six foot four superhuman, but also a Dungeons and Dragons playing rave music nerd?

Lindsay (00:08:46):

It's a fascinating question. But also he is very driven, very passionate person. And one thing that he is passionate about that I I wanna mention before we go into this interview is Bubbles the dog.

Moby (00:08:58):

I'm glad you brought up Bubbles. 'cause Bubbles is amazing. Bubbles only likes one person on the planet as far as we know. And that person is Joe. And Joe and Bubbles are inseparable.

Lindsay (00:09:06):

They never are apart. If you go near Joe or even really look at Joe Bubbles isn't happy about it. Bubbles

Moby (00:09:13):

Weighs approximately three pounds. <laugh> Bubbles is the smallest living thing I've ever seen in my entire life. But also because Bubbles doesn't like other humans, but Bubbles especially doesn't like other dogs. So unfortunately we had to find a bagel-sitter for Bagel. So Bagel was not present during the interview with Joe. She

Lindsay (00:09:29):

Was not, she was with our dear friend Stella. And they had the best time ever. Yeah. But yeah, she could not come with us. But I love their relationship Bubbles. And Joe, it's so, so cute.

Moby (00:09:39):

I mean, he's this big super hunk of a human and she weighs three pounds. We, we have, what else do we wanna say? 'cause we also, we should jump in. We've been, we've been rambling on like crazy people have, we should start playing the interview.

Lindsay (00:09:51):

Um, I wanna say this, this conversation that we have with Joe is fascinating. He's so unbelievably forthcoming about his sobriety and spiritual journey and his family history. And it's a beautiful, beautiful thing to see someone just be so, so open with so much about their personal life, but also there's so much that we didn't get to touch on. Like, I had all of these questions about coming up in the theater and going to Carnegie Mellon. He's done so much. Very, very cool theater. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but we didn't really get to touch on it because we went in so many other directions that I was like, no, let's just go with what we're doing here.

Moby (00:10:25):

Uh, and the last thing I'll say, and then we're in the next 15 seconds we're gonna jump into the interview, is we, we were by the beach and it was very nice outside. So the windows were open. So you will hear some background noise. And without further ado, let's go talk to Joe. Let's

Lindsay (00:10:39):

Talk to Joe.

Moby (00:10:48):

So, Joe, yes. Lindsay. Yeah. Bubbles, Bubbles. Bubbles is asleep. She's asleep. Yeah, sure. So there's so much that we want to talk about. One of the first things when I was getting to know you and also doing some homework, I realized something. If I was to describe you to someone, my friend Joe, he's obsessed with Dungeons and Dragons. He's obsessed with like, some of the mystical aspects of 12 step programs in Carl Jung. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. He was a raver in high school. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. They'd be like, oh. So he's like a little nerd like you. And then they would see you and they'd realize, well, you don't look like a nerd. So that, so my question is,

Joe (00:11:28):

What does a nerd look like?

Moby (00:11:30):

I think you're looking at him <laugh> like a nerd is me. A nerd is like, like bald, bad teeth, glasses.

Joe (00:11:37):

Well, but why does a nerd have to look a certain way? Isn't a nerd. Aren't we describing what someone is on the inside or what they're attracted to? I mean, isn't it like, close your eyes and, and, and that, you know, it sounds like a nerd. It's a nerd

Moby (00:11:52):

In a very idealized way. I feel like a lot of, a lot of nerds felt like we didn't have a choice. Like, like for example, when we were in school, we were like, well, we're bad at sports. We're not smart enough to really like start computer companies. So let's go play D&D and listen to electronic music. 'cause that was the only thing left available to us. Well, I

Joe (00:12:14):

I would say along those lines, I don't know that I chose to be a nerd. I just am one. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I, I, you know, like, I mean, not in the physical way. Not saying that like, well, I had all these other options. 'cause I think, like sometimes people ask me, they say, oh, I heard a story that, you know, you, you tore, you tore your knee in football and, and, and then you, and then you went into acting. And it's like, no, no, I was always an artist. It was just a matter of what discipline I was going to pursue. Or at least like start the journey on. So, you know, growing up, I, I just, I just was, I was just, I was a very, very intellectual, very thoughtful, very, um, empathetic kid. And, um, I was having a conversation with a friend of mine at dinner the other night. 'cause he was an artist. And we were, do you know David Choe, the artist?

Moby (00:13:01):

I know the name.

Joe (00:13:02):

Well, his books, his books on my, we can, we can pull his book out. But he's a great artist. Um, he, he know he's the one that kind of famously painted the Facebook studios for, for stock rather than money. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And then Facebook sold. And he's, you know, can do whatever he wants. And he's a great actor too, who was in that show Beef that just came out last year, which is great if you haven't watched it. But anyway, David show what's up. And um, but we were talking about how previous generations never talked about anything, you know, like it was just stoic shut your mouth, you came back from World War ii. You never talk about it. Ever. Like any Vietnam, don't talk about it, never don't talk about trauma, don't talk about, you know, feelings. And then, uh, every once in a while, uh, an artist comes along who's like the black sheep of the family.

Joe (00:13:45):

And it's your job to talk about everything and everybody just wants you to shut up about it all. Um, and, and, and I, I think like that's, that's who I was when I kind of slid down the chute into life on Planet Earth, <laugh> the shoot. Like, I was like, Hey, like this is who I am. And so I think nerd artist being curious and, and also kind of gravitating towards certain things, which, you know, you kind of give the preamble what we'll get into. Some of those things are positive, some of those things are negative. I think when you have a personality like that, you can be very, very attracted to some of the negative aspects in life. And then there's some of the positive aspects in life. And it kind of becomes a struggle between heaven and hell. And this whole,

Moby (00:14:27):

Well, it's funny, when I experience, when I first got sober for real, I noticed a few recurring trends in the meetings I went to. And one of them was like, a lot of times people were giving their share about addiction and they were talking about their childhoods. And almost invariably they talked about losing themselves in books. Yes. Yeah. Like losing themselves in fantasy. And I was like, oh, well you mean like reading Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion and drawing maps of my hometown that tried to make it look like JRR Tolkien had drawn them. So it seems like you might have identified as someone who has a child lost yourself in stories and books. And

Joe (00:15:03):

Yes. When I, when I reached the point where it was time to get sober and really started looking at why I had such a problem with reality. Like why, I mean, there, there was a book about the Lochness Monster when I was a kid that I, I don't think it was ever in the library, it was at my house. Like I, you know, if somebody else wanted to read it or I heard that I, okay, I'll bring it for you tomorrow, you can read it. But then it comes back home with me because I, I just wanted to believe that there was something other than all of this. Yeah.

Moby (00:15:29):

On one hand, like I grew up with trauma. Yeah. But I also grew up in the suburbs and the suburbs are safe. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But they're so dull <laugh> and I'm, I'm not trying to criticize them 'cause like, it's kind of nice that they're dull because dull oftentimes comes along with safety. But yeah, it was

Joe (00:15:45):

Well and safety means you have the time to do artistic things, you know, it's like, have you ever watched that show Naked and Afraid? No. Okay. Lindsay,

Moby (00:15:54):

You seen it. Well,

Lindsay (00:15:55):

A couple of episodes. Yeah. It's

Joe (00:15:57):

Shocking. Alright, so just bear with me. But like, they airdrop men and women in different combinations into the wild, some harsh environment with nothing with like a machete and like a pot to cook water in. So you, you know, you have potable water. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, they're also naked and they're naked. They

Moby (00:16:13):

Got nothing. And they're, and afraid.

Joe (00:16:14):

And, and yeah. Especially some more than others. So there was one, I think it was in Louisiana where there was a, a woman and two men that got dropped into the swamp. And usually on that show people lose 40 pounds, 50 pounds. They were like gaining weight. They were like, you know, they, they, they started building Adirondack chairs to sit in <laugh>. They started painting signs. They made a 60 foot bridge over the river. Like, you just see how civilization gets built or, or, or kind of progresses. Especially like they, they had so much food that they got to the art phase of life where like, let's paint, let's make some chairs, let's do some crafting. You know? And to me it's like growing up in the suburbs provided that, and not to say that like, I'm not a fan of hip hop or I'm not a fan of art that comes from difficult situations. But, you know, like, I, I think we're we're saying is that like, when you are safe, there's, there's a certain amount of growth that can happen

Moby (00:17:07):

Safe. And also the amount of, call it like disposable time, at least I had growing up, I don't know if it was like that for you guys, but like hours and hours of nothing but like, kind of wonderful. Nothing where it's like, okay, let's get on our bikes and let's go find an abandoned house to explore. Yeah. Let's listen to records. Let's go to the library and take out books about the Lochness monster. Yeah. One thing I really wanted to bring up, which mm-Hmm. <affirmative> might be a little surprising. I can't remember if we talked about this or not. Before I really discovered music, I had one obsession, well, books and science fiction. But my obsession, you ready? Okay. The Pittsburgh Steelers, I, what, what? When I, from the time I was eight. Well,

Joe (00:17:45):

See now I'm surprised and that's not fair.

Moby (00:17:47):

Why is that not fair?

Joe (00:17:48):

Well, because, okay, so in this equation, you're, you're the self-professed nerd. And, and I'm the jock and we're finding common ground that's

Moby (00:17:57):

Yeah.

Joe (00:17:57):

In the eighties. This isn't, well this is, well this is an eighties movie right now that we're entering into.

Lindsay (00:18:01):

Yeah. But also it surprises me because now whenever I mention sports, you become upset. You don't even wanna think about sports. Now

Moby (00:18:08):

I like playing sports, I just don't know anything about professional sports. But from the time I was eight until 12, obsessed with the Pittsburgh Steelers obsessed. Like this is

Joe (00:18:17):

The seventies Steelers. Yes.

Moby (00:18:18):

This is like Franco Harris, Terry Bradshaw Lynn Swann, "Mean" Joe Greene,

Joe (00:18:21):

Jack Lambert, no teeth. Yeah.

Moby (00:18:23):

So I was so, so obsessed. One of the most emotionally upsetting moments of my life was the year, I forget what would it been, 78. So they lost the Super Bowl, I think to the Cowboys. I

Joe (00:18:35):

Forget. Well, they won all, they won all four that they played in. But there was, there was the 76 season, the the, the team was so good. That was the best team that they have at. They didn't make it that year.

Moby (00:18:43):

Okay. Well there's one. Yeah. There maybe that was, I just remember being like despondent and my mother sort of being concerned. She was like, alright,

Joe (00:18:50):

Well, there was Super Bowl XXX, which was in the nineties when they played the cowboy. This would've been seventies. Yeah, the seventies they played, they were four for four, but then they lost to the Cowboys in the nineties. Okay. I was the,

Moby (00:18:59):

So I just thought I'd bring that up as like looking for a little common ground. And also outing myself as someone who many, many years ago was obsessed with professional sports. I was so obsessed. I think I was nine years old. My mom and my grandmother came to me and asked me what I wanted for my birthday. And I wanted a subscription to the sporting news.

Joe (00:19:17):

Did you like the numbers and statistics? I

Moby (00:19:20):

Loved the number. I used to, I used to make my same thing for the Yankees. I would make my own scorecards. I would figure out like rbis and percentages.

Joe (00:19:27):

Did you ever like playing cards when you were younger?

Moby (00:19:29):

I loved playing cards. So it

Joe (00:19:30):

Was like a really crazy, like, numbers were really soothing to me. Yeah. And I remember being young, playing cards with the adults and I could, I could tell what they had in their hand and I would always win. And then I didn't play cards for years and I got invited to play in this poker tournament. I thought, all right, I'll fine. I'll go. And, you know, and it was like a $10,000 buy-in, and there were like 36 people. There were pros in it, but I was going because it was my friend's charity. So it was like, oh, okay, well I'll go and I'll see him and we'll hang out and blah, blah, blah. And I won it. And I hadn't played in decades. Wow. And I beat like pros at the, like, it was like, numbers for me were always like, I was a really math brain, like very good math. SAT. So I was just wondering if like that l itself to you, because I know electronic music is a lot of numbers.

Moby (00:20:11):

Yeah. Lynn, what do you think? No,

Lindsay (00:20:13):

I'm just, I feel like you are connecting over sports <laugh> and I, I am, I really am happy that that's happening and I support it.

Joe (00:20:21):

Houston Oilers? No, Houston Texans.

Lindsay (00:20:23):

Houston Tex. Well, you know, I feel like

Joe (00:20:26):

Astros, no. Houston

Lindsay (00:20:27):

Rockets. I feel like I'm very supportive of people reaching their like athletic dreams Yeah. And all of their goals. But

Moby (00:20:33):

Sounds so diplomatic. <laugh>.

Lindsay (00:20:36):

No, I love it when people's dreams come true. And I feel like anyone on a professional team, their dreams are coming. True. And I think that's poet.

Moby (00:20:43):

But you love when anyone Yeah. But you love it when anyone's dreams come true. Like for example, like Vladimir Putin be, oh, sorry. No, I mean, I don't wanna get assassinated professional athlete. Let's pick something a little more benign. Like professional

Lindsay (00:20:54):

Athletes. I think there's something very, uh, poetic about a professional athlete's journey. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think that's very beautiful. But when it comes to like the individual teams, I tend not to pick one because I'm proud of everyone.

Joe (00:21:05):

It's not, well see

Moby (00:21:06):

What else? No, you're not. Yes.

Lindsay (00:21:08):

I'm, there's no professional athlete. I'm not proud of that I can think of Right. Right now. Michael

Joe (00:21:11):

Vick could pro

Lindsay (00:21:12):

Oh, except for Michael Vick <laugh>. He can suck

Joe (00:21:15):

It. I could bring up a bunch of others that I won't. Okay. I'm sure

Lindsay (00:21:17):

There's some athletes that are terrible people, but I would

Moby (00:21:18):

Say OJ Simpson. OJ Simpson living the dream. Yeah. So,

Joe (00:21:23):

But, but also like, set me up. I think the city you grow up in also culturally, you know, like, like in Pittsburgh on Sundays, the, the street lights are all on blink because no one's on the street. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> you know, Sunday you watch the game like everybody, you know, I used to, uh, in college, I, I got a job working for Camel Cigarettes passing out cigarette, which I actually went back when I got sober and I felt bad about it. 'cause I thought to myself, if I had a kid and my kid came home and was like, oh, I'm passing out cigarettes for Camel in a bar, I'd be like, no, you're not, you're not doing that job. So, okay, how do I not be a hypocrite? So I had an uncle die of liver and lung cancer, like when I was first getting sober.

Joe (00:22:00):

And, and he left behind this 1994 champagne colored Lincoln Town car. And I drove that car to all my, I drove it into the ground and, uh, while I was, you know, getting sober. And, um, when the car was done, rather than go to Blue Book or sell it off, I donated it to the American Cancer Society to try to make up for the cigarettes that I passed out. And so the point of all of this is that I used to pass out cigarettes at all these different bars all over Pittsburgh. And, um, there was one bar called New York, New York, which was a gay bar. And I would bring them cigarettes. And on Sundays, all, all the guys were in there watching the stealers. You know what I mean? Like, it, it doesn't matter what walk of like male, female, like straight gay, black, white, brown, yellow, whatever it is. Like, if you grow up in this, you root for the Steelers. Yeah. And you know who the fourth spring tight end is. Yeah. Coming off of injured reserve. Like, you know, you know. Yeah. So, um, it's like all the girls in Pittsburgh, they won't wear those pink jerseys that the league makes. They're like, we wear the real ones. It's like Spartan culture. Right.

Moby (00:23:01):

<laugh>.

Lindsay (00:23:02):

<laugh>. I love that. It's like this cultural thing that everyone agrees on. That's beautiful. Yeah. That's community. And I'm pro community there. It's

Moby (00:23:10):

Lindsay. When <laugh> when did you become so like diplomatic? You're like the Switzerland

Lindsay (00:23:16):

Does? Well, when it comes to sports, I feel like I, 'cause I sometimes feel like there are some people that know all the stats and know all the players. And sometimes I feel a little bit like, is it bad that I don't, but then I, where I find my sense of, of self-worth in this is that I do care. But on a more general level about everyone's,

Moby (00:23:35):

That's

Lindsay (00:23:35):

Nice. Everyone's experience.

Joe (00:23:36):

Yeah. That's great.

Moby (00:23:37):

Who are you? <laugh> What?

Lindsay (00:23:41):

But, but also I think, yeah, I, I also moved around a lot when I was a kid. Like I, we landed in Houston, but we moved around a lot. So I think I saw a lot of these different people with their different cities having a very similar communal experience with different teams. And so I was kind of forced to see it all from the outside. 'cause I was always going to different places. So I think that's part of it too. Okay. But I was also a cheerleader and I had to care a lot for a long time. And I think it's good to kind of, you know, I cared a lot when I was a cheerleader.

Moby (00:24:10):

Like the Faith No More song. I

Joe (00:24:12):

Care a lot.

Moby (00:24:14):

And okay, so we've mentioned sobriety a couple times. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I'm gonna state the obvious sobriety oftentimes is the happy result of addiction.

Joe (00:24:26):

Yeah. Why? Yeah. You hear people say, I'm a grateful addict, or Yeah. You know, lucky to be. And I used to think that was the most ridiculous forced thing anyone could say, but you then that it's, it's, it's an acceptance of the call to spirituality.

Moby (00:24:45):

So I want to, I want to get to that. 'cause I'm, that's what really excites me. Yeah. And also we're gonna be talking about the

Joe (00:24:51):

Yeah,

Moby (00:24:51):

Yeah. Sort of the spiritual aspects of the 12 steps later. Great. Great. Yeah. Addiction. What was your, your drug of choice?

Joe (00:24:57):

Like other than books and comic books and all that stuff? Yeah.

Moby (00:25:00):

The actual, like

Joe (00:25:00):

Narcotic, like real, real stuff. Alcohol, drugs. Oh God. Well, okay, so 16 years old, you don't mind you like, I felt like I had the weight of the world on my shoulders as a kid. And I, I don't, I don't, I didn't know why I was, um, you know, like prone to depression and, um, it would just come on and I'd, it would stay for weeks or a month, you know. I just, I just felt that way. I just felt different. I felt like I didn't belong and everybody else was having a great time and I wasn't.

Moby (00:25:25):

What was your fam like, did you have a like I'm an only child with a single mom. 'cause my dad died of alcoholism when I was really young. Yeah. So did you have a big family or small family?

Joe (00:25:34):

Small family. My whole family was from Boston, but my brother and I were born in Pittsburgh. And, um, my father wound up, he, so he was on the teams that would go around the Tri-state area and take apart and put back together power generators. So you go to the hydro plant, you go to the coal plant, you go to the nuclear plant, you take the generators apart, clean, lay all the pieces out, clean them, and then put them back together. And I was like, I remember one time I was like, dad, what if there's like one bolt that you know, was left over? And he goes, you take it all apart again, and then you put it back all, you know, like, it had to be put together, obviously. Like this is a huge important job. And, um, my father wound up moving up the ladder and, and he wound up becoming a, a, a supervisor, a field manager for those teams. And he actually has an award. He's in the, um, uh, well, I mean, basically he has like the academy award of people who do that,

Moby (00:26:27):

Who take, who clean, take apart generators, take

Joe (00:26:29):

Apart power generators, and make sure that, that they're clean properly and put back together and that everything is done safely. Um, and so, you know, he was given a job in Pittsburgh or given the opportunity to, to, to go to Pittsburgh. I think the other choice was like Alaska, if I'm not mistaken. He was like, all right, we'll go to Pittsburgh. And that was 1972. So we're talking about the Steelers. That was Franco Harris' rookie season. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And that was when the Steelers actually went from the worst team in the league to the best Franco Harris, just so you know, running back. Big deal. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, so my dad and my mother, they moved to Pittsburgh. They got married, moved to Pittsburgh, had my brother and I. So it was very small. It was just me. And then my brother came along four and a half years later. And, and so it was a small kind of unit. My parents got divorced when I was 14. And so, you know, that's a pretty crucial age.

Moby (00:27:11):

Yeah. Especially you're, you're going through adolescence, which is challenging and confusing enough. Yeah. And then to be dealing with a divorce. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So, I mean, forgive me for stating the obvious, but do you think some of the depression had been there already? Or did that exacerbate it?

Joe (00:27:25):

I, I think it definitely exacerbated, looking back, it was like, I just kinda, you know, I was a straight A student right up until that point, and then I just didn't see the point in studying anymore. And, um, yeah, that was like a, that was like a re looking back, that was like a tricky time. You know, I don't wanna like wax histrionic on all of that, you know? But I, I just think that it's, uh, yeah, that was, I was looking back that, that was like kind of tough right at that moment to go through all of that. And I think there was like this sense of feeling, I got really felt alone and I didn't feel like a part of. And, and, um, and then, you know, you kind of fast forward a couple of years to age 16. I had a friend of mine call me one Friday night and said, what are you doing?

Joe (00:28:04):

I said, nothing. And, uh, she would book like promotional jobs for this like modeling agency. And she's like, well, I had somebody drop out last minute and can you come in and fill in for him? And I said, sure. What do I have to do? She said, just come down to our office and if anybody asks, just say you're 21. I said, sure. Okay, great. So I had my mom drop me off because I didn't have my driver's license. And, uh, I went into the office, there was this group of adults sitting there, and, uh, they looked at me and they said, you're the guy. I said, Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. They said, how old are you? And I said, 21. And they went, great, put this on. And it was a pirate suit, like with the ruffles and the cape and the hat and the wig and an eye patch. So far,

Moby (00:28:40):

So far so good.

Joe (00:28:41):

<laugh> and, and little like fake booties that made your shoes look like they were boots. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And, and I had a little plastic sword and I had a, like a pistola, like a little pistol, like a pirate pistol. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I'm gonna be Captain Morgan at a bunch of bars in Pittsburgh. And you know, pardon me if this is an antiquated term, uh, for today's day and age, but this is the direct quote. They said, these are your wenches. And there were these two hot college girls in like skimpy pirate girl outfits. And we all jumped in a minivan and they drove us to a bar. And I had never been in a bar, I'd never ordered a drink before in my life. And I went in there and, uh, they said, hold on, we have to put your backpack on. And they put this backpack on that was a tank, and they filled it full of Captain Morgan's rum.

Joe (00:29:23):

And it had a tap on it. And they said, go get everybody drunk and give everybody t-shirts. So we went, I went in the first bar and the two college models were like, come on, on, come, come over here, let's drink this. You know? So we went in the corner and I'm squirting it in my mouth, squirting it in there. And then we, I, you know, gave people t-shirts and I was very tentative and nervous, but, you know, I'm getting lit. And by like the third bar in all that, like weighted the world Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> was gone. And I'm like, in character, okay, <laugh>. Now I'm like, I am the

Moby (00:29:52):

You, you are Captain Morgan. I'm

Joe (00:29:53):

Captain Morgan <laugh>. And, uh, the, I remember the third bar had those saloon doors, like the cowboy doors. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And, uh, I just remember walking up and, uh, and I kicked the door in and, and, and the doors flipped open. And all the adults looked at me and I went a and the whole bar turned and went a and like it was on. And then I had everybody laying on top of the bar, and I was squirting in all of their mouths, squirting in mine. I was singing Marilyn Manson covers with the band. And Seagram's gave me a disposable camera to take pictures of the promo. And I mean, I, the pictures that were on that thing were like crazy <laugh> like stuff going on in the bathroom. I'm documenting this whole thing. I mean, it was crazy. And, um, some guy offered me 30 bucks, I think, for the sword.

Joe (00:30:40):

And I was like, well, that guy offered me 40. Like, there's no other guy. Like, I'm just working up the price. All of a sudden I'm this mastermind negotiator and I sell the sword for 40 bucks and then I sell the gun to another guy. And then I almost fell down the stairs 'cause of the eye patch. 'cause you know, depth perception. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so I got rid of that. And then I come back and they're, you know, where's your sword? Where's you going? I'm like, somebody stole it. You know, I got this pocket full of cash and I'm wasted and you know what I mean, I'm having the time of my life. So they dropped me off on my mother's front lawn and I kind of trundle in and I sleep that night with one floor, one foot on, on the floor. The next morning my friend calls me and is like, Hey, you know, how did the promotion go last night?

Joe (00:31:19):

And I'm like, oh, it was, I thought it, I thought it was, I thought it went very well, <laugh>. I thought we, I thought we really reached some people, you know, being super professional. She goes, well, there's a, there's a huge problem. I'm like, we're all going to jail. I don't know what you did last night, but Seagram's doesn't wanna do the promotion unless you're Captain Morgan. So we need to get you a fake id. <laugh>. And so <laugh>, there was another guy at the agency who is 10 years older than me, and he gave me his id, which is unbeatable because it's a real id. And I looked just like him. And so you learn the Zodiac sign and your date of birth and you learn how to work that. And I was Captain Morgan from 16 through 21 in Pittsburgh.

Moby (00:31:55):

And that was your introduction to drinking with, was that also your introduction to performing like theater?

Joe (00:32:00):

No, I, I had, I had, yeah. Yeah. I, I, I mean, I started making my own movies. Like my creativity kind of went from drawing, painting and game mastering, like tabletop role playing games into, oh, well, making a movie is the same thing. I'm writing, I'm directing, I'm setting these things, you know, the storyline up, I'm building it. Um, so that was kind of the segue there. So yeah, no, captain Morgan was just, I was performance art. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> <laugh> <laugh>.

Moby (00:32:30):

Um, okay. But that was your first drink, your introduction?

Joe (00:32:34):

Yeah, those were my first drunks. You know, I think I had been drunk at a cousin's wedding once before that, but like Captain Morgan was like, oh, wait a minute. I try to explain it to people who aren't addicts because it's hard to, to kind of, you know, 'cause you hear people who aren't addicts say, well, he had kids. What? And I'm like, it doesn't care if you have kids. Yeah. You know, he was rich. You're like, right. Like, you're, you're so is Jim Morrison. You know what I mean? I mean,

Moby (00:32:57):

That kept me from admitting I was an alcoholic for the longest time. I was like, I was like, oh, an alcoholic is clearly someone who's lost everything. And I was like, I've got a career. I'm on tour. I'm selling records. And I was like, oh, but I also am drinking 20 drinks a night, and I'm disappointed every morning that I'm still alive. <laugh>. I was like, maybe that's the problem. Yeah. So like, but it is very easy to look at the externalities as we know and say like, well, I can't have a problem because I'm doing okay by conventional cultural standards. Well,

Joe (00:33:29):

And to the addict, all those cerebral, I'm, I'm doing just fine. That's the intellect trying to talk you out of what you need to do spiritually.

Moby (00:33:39):

Okay. So you've discovered the joys of alcohol. Did you, like for me, for example, I was a garbage head. Like I drinking was my first vice. Yeah. But then eventually I realized I liked almost any drug that you put in front of me. So I was mainly an alcoholic, but also like anything, you know, like once I was drunk, I would do anything. Like one time doing a bag of the worst cocaine I found behind a toilet at Max Fish on Ludlow Street on a rainy Sunday night. So like garbage head.

Joe (00:34:11):

Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I I appreciate that. Uh, I was so mid nineties drum and bass Pittsburgh first rave,

Moby (00:34:21):

Dieselboy.

Joe (00:34:22):

Dieselboy. Well, and at the time, I mean, if, if we kind of like, well, so it would've been like Dieselboy, 1-8-7. Chris White, the Star Child. I, yeah, he went to Carnegie Mellon. He was a, he was a, I know that name. Drum and bass DJ around Pittsburgh. Um, and then I'm gonna just kind of deviate from drum and bass and I'm gonna go Scott Henry.

Moby (00:34:41):

Scott Henry from Baltimore who had Fever. Yep. Um,

Joe (00:34:45):

Buzz Buzz. Yeah. Yeah. Um, DJ

Moby (00:34:47):

Scott was more of a progressive house dj. Yeah.

Joe (00:34:50):

He was great. DJ Blue. B-L-E-A-U.

Moby (00:34:52):

That one, I, I don't know if I know D or

Joe (00:34:54):

BLEU Blue Cheese.

Moby (00:34:55):

I don't know if I, I don't know if I

Joe (00:34:56):

Dj uh, DJ Dmitri from Deee-Lite.

Moby (00:34:59):

So Dmitri one of the first most exciting musical moments I had as a electronic musician. Yeah. There was a record store in New York called Dance Tracks. It was on like third street. And I released my first single in 1990. And this was when Deee-Lite had Grooves in the Heart. Oh yeah. Like, they were so big. And I went in there and they had a copy of my record <laugh> and Frankie Knuckles was in there. Oh yeah, sure. Frankie Knuckles, who literally invented house music without Frankie Knuckles. There's no house music. He was playing at a club in Chicago called The Warehouse. He was the person who first used the expression house music. So Frankie Knuckles, Dmitri and Towa Tei. Who was the other, his the other guy.

Joe (00:35:41):

Do you remember Keoki?

Moby (00:35:42):

Oh yeah. Well, Keoki and I Yeah. That, that you had beef that would No, no, no beef. But boy did that. He and Michael Alig.

Joe (00:35:48):

Messiah.

Moby (00:35:49):

I mean, I remember the band Messiah, like, um,

Joe (00:35:51):

Do you remember? Well, Lords of Acid. Yeah.

Moby (00:35:53):

First time I went to Los Angeles, I played with Lords of Acid and some other Oh

Joe (00:35:58):

My God.

Moby (00:35:59):

But so I walk into this record store and my first single is playing to Dmitri, Towa Tei and Frankie Knuckles. I was like, I can quit now. Yeah. Like, this is, like, my career has reached its pinnacle. It's never gonna be better than this. Oh. But

Joe (00:36:13):

How fun. I think people don't understand, like, how it started out, there was no police security. There was no check-in line. There were no glow sticks. And you couldn't go to the store and buy JNCOs or baggy jeans. You had to go just buy a pair of jeans that were like 20 sizes too big for you <laugh>, and get yourself a Ringer T-shirt. And people were starting to get their septums pierced. That was the first time dyed hair. You know, like, I mean, it was like a whole new style that was being

Moby (00:36:40):

Built. And that's such a fascinating aspect to it, is that everything was self-generated. Yeah. You know, there were no corporations. There were no companies. It was basically one kid sold the drugs. One kid dj.

Joe (00:36:52):

Yes. Somebody came back from Amsterdam with whatever they were selling. Acid was five bucks a hit. Which I was kind of, that was the segue into this was like, the first time I took acid was at my first rave. And the rave got busted. 'cause it was kids with a power generator. You, you went on abandoned building, you set up a power generator and you went until the cops showed up. And the cops showed up very quickly. And I had just taken this $5 head of acid and we're like, what are we gonna do? When's this thing gonna hit? What's, where are we gonna be? And somebody had the keys to a coffee, coffee shop called the Strip Bar, which was in the strip district of Pittsburgh. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And they went and opened it up and everybody moved everything to there. So it was like, oh, it's moving to the strip bar.

Joe (00:37:34):

Go. So we went down there and I'm hanging out and I go to my friend, I'm like, Hey man, I, I think it was like a dud. I'm not feeling anything. And he goes, oh, you, you want another one? I go, sure. I give him five bucks. So he comes back, I take the second one. And then I remember being in the kitchen talking, I remember I was, I was talking to this girl in the kitchen and there was a guy behind her just like, doing this. And I'm like, is he okay? And she's like, oh yeah, he's okay. And that was my first time I ever saw somebody, like in a K hole. And, um, I'm talking to her K for

Moby (00:38:01):

People are listening is Ketamine, which an animal tranquilizer <laugh>. That became a very popular rave drug that really for the most part just led kids to sit on the dance floor. Yeah. <laugh>. Like they just sit there and fall asleep.

Joe (00:38:15):

It was like pre ghb Yeah. Which then became very popular later. And, um, but, um, but yeah, there wasn't like even ecstasy at that point. Like you'd heard about this thing from Amsterdam, but like it wasn't around. And once some whatever, somebody snuggled back in their suitcase was gone. It was gone. So it was just like, it was kinda like acid marijuana and, and like even drinking was discouraged at, at the raves that I went to. Yeah. Because that was like seen as like aggressive. And that's not what it was all about. It was about like also Unity.

Moby (00:38:40):

Most of the people at the Rave were 17 years old. Right. That's even if they wanted to drink, you know, it was easier to get special K mm-Hmm. <affirmative> or acid than it was to get a can of beer. Right?

Joe (00:38:50):

Yeah. So I remember talking to this girl and I just was like, whew, man, it's getting hot in here. And I looked up at the pipes in the back of this coffee shop at the kitchen, and I could see the precipitation on the, on the pipes. And I remember like a, like a droplet fell off the pipe. <laugh>. And I followed, tracked it all the way to the floor, which is black and white checkerboard. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And it hit the checkerboard and went and rippled out like it was made of water. And I was like, what? <laugh>? And I started sweat. It felt like sweat came out of every pour on my body. And then it was like, remember them, the old TVs when you would press off, it would go Yeah.

Joe (00:39:27):

And click. It was like, and I was like, don't black out. And I just like, the whole world disappeared. And then when I opened my eyes, like it was like my body disappeared. I was this glowing ball <laugh>. Like I, I like a white. And, and I couldn't tell where the, I leaned up against the wall, my hand went and my arm went into the wall and there was a cow skull. And the cow skull came back to life and everything that had been alive became like reanimated. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Like, I had a leather jacket. And the leather jacket started undulating and moving and like breathing on me. And I was like, I need to go. I'm gonna go listen to music. And I just went and sat on a speaker and danced for like the next six hours.

Moby (00:40:08):

Wow. That's

Joe (00:40:09):

Intense. Anyway, and I was kind of like, or you know, like that experience for me, it was like, it was having an eight to 12 hour boxing match against my shadow in which I won by decision in the 15th round. Do you know what I, and it was like this,

Moby (00:40:26):

A grudge match, this

Joe (00:40:26):

Slug fest where I won by that much. And it was kinda like, alright, well we did that. Great.

Moby (00:40:32):

Do you know, it's, it's making me want to, because I also see that you have Carl Jung's Red Book on your table. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so you're just talking about a shadow self and I really want to talk about that at some point. But I feel like we haven't, we haven't gotten there quite yet. Okay, fine. So, so acid rave culture, drinking, where did it go? When did it become a problem?

Joe (00:40:53):

Um, I, I, I had success. I was very high functioning. You know, I went to a great school for acting. I went to Carnegie Mellon. I got a scholarship to one, you know, the best drama school in the country. And, uh, and so I think as I was having success and then wound up like booking the first movie I auditioned for when I got to la, which was Spider-Man, I, I just think that all of that then validates every part of you. But you don't, there's lots of, there's kinda lots of people along for the ride at that point, and that you should have gotten rid of a long time, meaning like personality traits. So, you know, it's validating everything about me. And I don't know what should be validated and what shouldn't. So I just think, well, if it's working, then let's just ramp it up, ramp up everything. Mm. And you know, I really idolized those like, tortured artists and, you know, I was smoking two packs of cigarettes at a time and drinking, you know, and I, I just looked up the, like, those wild men, like Gary Oldman or even like, I had this like Jim Morrison obsession

Moby (00:41:49):

And he like Bukowski or

Joe (00:41:51):

Bakowski and, and, uh, I really liked Rollins. I thought Rollins was like Bakowski, but in the gym to a certain degree. <laugh>, you know.

Moby (00:41:59):

And, and the interesting thing about dry rage, Hank is, but he's, I think he's always been straight edge. Yeah,

Joe (00:42:03):

Yeah, yeah. But yeah, I I I was into Bakowski. Um, yeah. I was just into all those tortured artists, you know, and, and I thought that, okay, that's, that's what you need to be. It was all very cerebral. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, there was nothing in my body about me. It was like, you ever watch that show Dexter? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, or where he just sits there on the couch with, with a girlfriend and he's like, what's normal? Yeah. Like, you should put your arm around her. That's what normal people do. You know, it was my whole life was just what do normal people do? How do you behave normally? And um, you know, of course when I, when I drank it was like, I can be anybody. I can, I can be, I can be that. I can be the guy in the movie, the guy that I always want to be that dynamic, you know, outward living person.

Joe (00:42:43):

And, um, and I also chose a profession in acting where I could, I could go put on a mask and I didn't have to be me either. And so I wasn't me on stage. And then when I got down off the stage, I went to the bar and drank and wasn't me. You know, which, which is sad because again, it's like, well, what, what was my problem with reality? Like, I'm, I'm pretty good at reality <laugh>. I just think that all of my success validated me. And it also validated the way that I drank or the way that I did drugs. And, and I think, um, as smart as I ever was, I really did think if I can just get myself on a screen 30 feet high mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, everybody will be sorry for how they treated me. Everybody will, you know, it'll somehow validate me in a way and all my problems will go away. And as smart as I ever thought I was, I still somehow deep down as I believe that because

Moby (00:43:29):

It felt great. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Like, that's like, I remember at one point thinking to myself like, okay, I don't need much in order to be happy, all I need is to be eternally famous <laugh> and have every person I know love me and validate me. Yeah. And stay drunk and high every day for the rest of my life. Like, I'm not asking the universe for much <laugh>, just

Joe (00:43:50):

<laugh> just Yeah. Undying eternal love and worship from

Moby (00:43:54):

Everyone. Yeah. Just think be the most famous person in the world and be validated and loved by everyone. And I'll be like, then I'll be fine. Then

Joe (00:44:00):

I'll be all right. Yeah. Then I'll be okay, then I'll be okay, then I'll be okay. I'm implying I'm not okay. I'm not okay. So luckily for me, in a weird way, you know, I did have success right outta the gate. You know, I, I got Spider-Man right outta the gate and

Moby (00:44:13):

With Sam

Joe (00:44:14):

Raimi. With Sam Raimi. Yeah. And

Moby (00:44:15):

I've never met Sam Raimi Uhhuh, but I am so fascinated. What a fascinating weirdo. Yeah. He started the first Evil Dead. Yeah. And then the other Evil Deads, which are so unbelievably strange and inventive. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And then, uh, that wonderful movie. Take Me to Hell or Take Yeah, yeah. <laugh> and then he made Spider-Man. So he is made these very successful movies. But you can just tell that there's something wonderfully, deeply strange about him. And

Joe (00:44:41):

Also what I really loved about Sam was, was how concerned he was about the metaphor and the myth of a superhero story. I mean, you see it playing out right now, and I don't wanna like harp on it 'cause I don't want to get started. 'cause I'll start, I'll turn in to get off my lawn guy <laugh>. But it's like, you know, you, you look at a lot of these superhero movies right now that are, they're being made by people who don't understand the power of mythology. And I don't know if that's an active takedown of, you know, western culture as handed down by Greek civilization who are credited with the start of theater or just the berian idea that it is all one story coming from the source as told by a thousand thousand civilizations. But superheroes are supposed to be demagogues and that are more human than human beings are.

Joe (00:45:32):

In order for us to talk about our own Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> fallibility and our own, you know, um, I think it, I think it, it takes the pressure off of people to be able to put the focus and, and criticism onto these larger than life characters who are either here to save you or here to understandably destroy everything you love for good reason or, or talk about jealousy or like in true blood to talk about marriage equality or racism or whatever. All this is, you know, we can kind of project ourselves on in them. And, and that's when it works. And, and Sam was really concerned with the human aspect of Peter Parker. And I think that's why that movie is so beloved. That particular Spider-Man is so beloved because people really saw themselves in that character and they understood what it was really about. And you know, I think that Sam's from my talks with him, he was always like, just, they're very aggressively concerned with what is human about this story.

Moby (00:46:27):

And as you mentioned, like representing like the Joseph Campbell myths Yeah. And the archetypal aspects. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> the intelligence that he brought to that. Yes. Because the only reason I went to go see that movie was 'cause he was making it. I was like, stem, Amy's making a Spider-Man movie. Yeah. Like, what's he gonna do with it? And I was like, oh, it's, it's like beautiful. And it's emotional. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And it's strong and powerful. Like it's really pretty special. But

Joe (00:46:49):

We're also coming out of the nineties. Yeah. And, and to me, the nineties were a period where a lot of indie filmmakers and music video directors, um, were given the reigns to Hollywood and creativity. They were given big budgets. You have people like David Fincher, you have people like Tarantino. You have people like, even like Robert Rodriguez. And, and you know, I think Raimi was one of those too, where, you know, you have the dawn of HBO, which was a bunch of EEC executives smart enough to say, you are way better at telling stories than any of us. Like, go do what you wanna do and we're gonna support your vision. Go do something extraordinary.

Moby (00:47:23):

Okay. I wanna get back to sobriety and addiction. But, um, one funny thing, when I first started coming to la, I got invited, I don't remember his name. I got invited to dinner at the president of HBO's house.

Joe (00:47:36):

Chris Albrecht,

Moby (00:47:37):

I don't remember. This was quite a while ago. Okay. This was my introduction to the world of like, film and tv, Uhhuh, <affirmative>. He basically said, he said, I hate this town, <laugh>, I hate the world of entertainment. He said, everything I approve, I'm trying to ruin the network. Yeah. But everything he approved was successful. <laugh>. Right. And he was like, I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I'm trying to approve things that no one wants to watch. It's the

Lindsay (00:48:01):

Producers,

Joe (00:48:02):

But, you know. But isn't that the anecdote now? I see that happening now where I kind of feel, I feel like I'm out in the water on a surfboard. And I feel like there's a huge wave coming in. And I'm trying to, trying to like, understand what that wave is. And what I think is going to happen is that the big studios, the big places, the big companies of power are going to hire people who had problems with them in order to take over and fix how far they've gone astray.

Lindsay (00:48:31):

But that would require risk. And all of them are terrified of risk. Right.

Joe (00:48:35):

But they're gonna get to a point where that's either going to happen, or you're going to see those creatives go to smaller companies that are gonna allow them the creative freedom. And then these smaller companies, they're all gonna start sprouting. Yeah. You see it in tech first and even like, you know, Nike and tennis shoes. Like, you're gonna see a lot of cool shoes coming out from other places because all the creatives left. And they're going off to to, to greener pastures where they can be creative. And I think you're gonna see it in entertainment as well. So

Moby (00:49:00):

I like the trajectory that we're on. And I really like, I feel like we're getting, I at some point, like building towards this addiction, bottoming out then recovery. But I also know, um, Lindsay is chomping champ. Is it Champ? Champing.

Lindsay (00:49:16):

Champing at The Bit I learned recently

Moby (00:49:18):

To talk about theater. 'cause this is another thing. Like, there, there, there are many things about you that I think are really surprising. But also like you're, but basically like going to Carnegie Mellon for theater. Yes. And I know Lindsay was really, but

Lindsay (00:49:32):

Wait, but I feel like we're just, we just got to LA in the story. But

Moby (00:49:35):

I want, do we wanna go back and talk about

Joe (00:49:37):

Theater? We have to back up to go to Carnegie Mellon. Well,

Lindsay (00:49:39):

I feel like we could talk about theater separately.

Joe (00:49:40):

Carnegie Mellon. Carnegie. Carnegie. You pronounce it if you're from Pittsburgh, Carnegie. How did they say Andrew Carnegie. Yeah. Why? I've slip in a Carnegie, Carnegie Mellon. Carnegie Mellon. Like

Moby (00:49:50):

Carnegie Pittsburgh. Correct. Like, like playing at Carnegie Hall.

Joe (00:49:52):

Yes. Carnegie. Carnegie.

Lindsay (00:49:54):

That's how they say the hall.

Moby (00:49:56):

'cause he was Scottish. The Scottish,

Joe (00:49:57):

Yeah. Yeah, Scott,

Lindsay (00:49:58):

There you go. Yeah. Well, but I feel like this, we're on the, we're on the sobriety kick and I feel like we're, we're really, there's momentum and I don't wanna break it. Okay.

Joe (00:50:07):

Okay.

Moby (00:50:08):

Because I'm, I'm, I'm working toward,

Joe (00:50:09):

I'm working. Listen, I'm ready. Whatever.

Moby (00:50:11):

I'm in my mind. Yeah. I'm working towards a grand culmination that involves Carl Jung,

Joe (00:50:16):

A grand conjunction, conjunction,

Moby (00:50:17):

If you will. Well,

Lindsay (00:50:18):

Wait, here's maybe an interesting way to go back. Okay. To theater. Uh, yeah. <laugh> get worried because it's gonna get weird. Just kidding. It's not. Um, I like weird. I feel like you, you said something about you came out of the shoot with some intensity, <laugh>. Right. You did say the word shoot, figurative

Joe (00:50:37):

Literal <laugh>. Yeah. Did you, would you have preferred me as another term? No.

Lindsay (00:50:40):

No. I think that's wonderful. Right. Um, but you said that you always had an intensity and that you always felt a little bit out of place. Yeah. But then two things happened. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, as I understand it, you got very involved in sports. Yeah. Which I think a lot of people, when they're involved in sports, especially when they do multiple sports, there's kind of this, this community and this belonging that happens within these kind of like, sporting groups. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But then you also Yeah. I

Moby (00:51:10):

Think they're called teams. isn. True. I think they're called teams. Sporting groups.

Joe (00:51:12):

Yeah. No. And that, and that. No. And, and that's and that's true. No, I, I am definitely like, like, yeah. I, I, yeah. I, I, I, I, listen, when I was in high school, I had friends, I had all kinds of different friends. I was friends with everybody, you know. But it's not to say that on the inside, there isn't this like,

Lindsay (00:51:29):

Of course deep. No, I think that's what's really interesting Yeah. Is that you have, you have all of all of these communities, these probably tight knit, um, athletic communities. Yes. And yet you still are struggling with this, this feeling. Yeah. That must have been powerful. But then you also find theater in all of this. Yes. And I wonder how

Moby (00:51:50):

And D and D

Lindsay (00:51:51):

And D and d. Yeah. It's

Joe (00:51:52):

Also very well, and mostly other games I played, I played a lot of other games as a kid. So it wasn't necessarily D&D like Yeah. There was a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle role playing game that took place in modern day.

Lindsay (00:52:02):

I would've played that.

Joe (00:52:03):

And I have the, I have the, I have the,

Moby (00:52:05):

Jonathan has a pet turtle named Donatello, who's about 800 years old. <laugh>.

Joe (00:52:08):

I have the original, I have the original paintings.

Moby (00:52:09):

Michaelangelo,

Joe (00:52:10):

I have the painting. That is the first time the Ninja Turtles are painted in color. I'll show it to you. What? Yeah. No, I I you've come to the right place, my friend.

Lindsay (00:52:18):

I was a big Turtles fan. That was something I actually was obsessed

Joe (00:52:21):

With. I love the black and whites, but of course it shows you what a weird kid I was. I like the existentialism. I like the revenge. I like the fact that at the end of the first issue, they've achieved their entire life goal of revenge. They've murdered Oroku Saki and avenged, the death of Splinter, the rat's master. And, and now it's, okay, well, we're these abominations. Where do we belong in this world? And what do we do? Oh. And then I could cry that. Right. That's what I <laugh>. But that's, I mean, I was a weird kid. Um,

Lindsay (00:52:47):

But not that it's emotional. It's, I think things that people, all people understand of like that feeling of where do I belong? Which is I think another reason why you, why I, I know that I really connected to it. Yeah. But it seems like you did too. So, but that also leads into addiction of, I also think that my friends that are addicts, most of the addicts I know have struggled with this deep, uh, existential feeling of what is a human, what does a, a human do? Sure. Am I supposed to be one? And am I doing it wrong? And I must be doing it wrong and nothing makes sense. And I'm all alone.

Joe (00:53:17):

Yeah. I, I get all of that. I mean, you know, I, I have theories. Um, I have a theory as to why I felt the way that I did as a kid and, and, and how that's played out. I'm Armenian, you know, this tattoo on my arm is, is actually, um, Eastern Orthodox Armenian. I've

Moby (00:53:34):

Been trying to read it. I was like, is it, I

Joe (00:53:37):

See people going like this. It's like, you're never gonna read it. Is it like a,

Moby (00:53:39):

It's like a Tolkien ruin.

Joe (00:53:41):

It's, um,

Moby (00:53:42):

Does it say serenity in Portuguese?

Joe (00:53:44):

Yeah. It says "hreshtak", which is, um, angel in, um, Eastern Orthodox Armenian. And, um, it's partially for my grandmother. So my great-grandmother escaped the Armenian genocide. And, um, you know, the, the Turkish army came in and, and they killed all the men, killed her husband, and, um, shot her. And she laid on the ground and pretended she was dead while they murdered, uh, all of her children, uh, while she laid there. And, uh, there's, there's like debate, whether it was seven children or eight children that they killed. And then there was, um, a baby that they left to starve to death in the crib. And, uh, when they left the house, she got up off the ground with the bullet in her and took the baby and strapped it on her back, and took a piece of clothing from each one of the children. And she escaped.

Joe (00:54:30):

They were doing these death marches. They would chain the women and children together. 'cause that's all who was left. They would chain the women and children together and like, release the Kurds who were the, the enemies of the Armenians. They release them and give them weapons and officers coats and, and allow them to do whatever they wanted to these women and children. And it was awful. And women were dumping babies into tall grass because they weren't eating. And, and they couldn't support the baby. And they had to try to live on and survive. And when, as the story goes, my great grandmother got to a river and strap the baby on her back, swam the river, and then the baby drowned on the swim. So she got the other side, and, and that baby was dead. And so she wound up living in a cave in the mountains with a bunch of survivors.

Joe (00:55:09):

And I guess, I think the bullet wound got so bad that she had to come out, or she, you know, and she was put into a relocation camp for anyone who survived until they figured out what they were gonna do with them. And in this camp, uh, as the story goes again, there was this, uh, German officer who was stationed in Turkey at the time, and I think she worked in his house or something like that. And he impregnated her, uh, and then left her and went back to Germany. And we never knew who he was. But I knew that I was German, and I knew that I was Armenian because of that. And then my grandmother, uh, was born in that camp in Constantinople. And, uh, she was a skinny blonde Armenian girl. And the Armenians from my great-grandmother's village, they were very dark.

Joe (00:55:51):

You know, they're, they're not, um, blonde. So she had this, you know, obvious war baby that, that she gave birth to. And, um, she referred to the baby as her angel. And to me, you know, I think a lot of addicts, they struggle with spirituality or the idea of God, you know, you look around in the world and, and, and, and even the way that you behaved when you were drinking, and you think, how could there be a God and I be allowed to act that way, or other people be allowed to act that way? Or how could there be a holocaust? How could there be a genocide in, um, and, and her referring to the baby as the angel, to me, it said everything I needed to know about, about spirituality in that, you know, God didn't do this through the Armenians, human beings did this because of whatever reason, you know, that they're, they're allowed to have free will.

Joe (00:56:40):

And the, and, and humans are, are, are horrendous to each other and choose to fight each other and murder each other. And, and, and, but there is some sort of invisible world propping up the visible one. And my great grandmother, you know, believed in that power. And she would, she would read that book backwards and forwards. And people say that she was a healer, that she had like energy. She had this like, kind of metaphysical power to her. And, um, you know, she survived and she credited to this baby, this angel that was sent to her to get her through this difficulty. Not the baby is a burden that was born of whatever circumstances. We can all speculate what they were. But she saw it as a, as a gift that allowed her to survive long enough to have my grandmother who then died at age 40 of an autoimmune condition.

Joe (00:57:29):

So if you look at empirical data, like, especially like in, in, in, in Jewish descendants of Holocaust survivors, or even Armenian genocide survivors, um, and there's a, there's a great, uh, doctor named Dr. Gabor Maté who talks a lot about trauma and how that plays out through generations. Um, the Armenian side of my family is riddled with autoimmune conditions, riddled with addiction. So I, I'm born and, and, and I, and I grow up feeling different or feeling like there's this weight on my shoulders, and I don't know why. And I feel like I'm alone, or I feel like, like things don't make sense to me. And, and, and I, it's not random. It's not something that just was a, was a dice roll. I lost, it's this thing slid into me. And this thing also killed my grandmother at age 40. So, you know, when you look at it that way, it's, you know, going back to Campbell, you know, and every hero's journey, there's a call to action.

Joe (00:58:28):

And, and the hero always refuses that call. And so, me <laugh> finding Captain Morgan was like every, all I needed to go off on the run and, and run from that. And I just wanted to be stupid like everybody else. I wanna have a good time like everybody else. I wanna go to spring break, and I wanted to be an idiot. And, and at some point, you, you get to this edge of the cliff, and it's like, you're either going off this cliff to your death, or you're gonna start walking it backwards, and you're going to start paying attention to the signs. And you're gonna start, you know, getting spiritual, trying to heal yourself, and then, and then figuring out a, a way to grow. So, um, you know, I think that getting into the arts, you know, looking back, I maybe should have just gone into directing because I think that's more what my personality is.

Joe (00:59:21):

But at the time, it was like being a rich, famous movie star. Who the hell wouldn't want that? You know? That's what I thought in my brain, you know, but it was, it was developing storytelling in order to kind of get to the place where I am now after 40, where I get to tell the story for my family members that didn't get to tell their story. So I, I really do feel like that's, that's my place in all of this. And so figuring out a, a, a better way to do that, you know, or, or figuring out how to, how to use all of that.

Lindsay (00:59:55):

I feel like when I, when I go back to Texas, the very thought of generational trauma Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> would shut a room down. Yeah. I mean, that would be the end. No more. Like, we we're not talking about this, this is not what we're doing. But now I feel like there are so many people that are getting into this place of, like, if you don't call out the idea of generational trauma, whatever it may have been, it's like, how do you get, how do you not continue the cycle?

Joe (01:00:21):

You have to, you have to be responsible for a lot of things you're not responsible for, you know, like no one ever says, oh, well that guy's an, but he's an alcoholic, so he gets a p No. It's like, you're just an <laugh>. You know? And, and like, I am not using the phrase generation trauma as some sort of excuse for behavior whatsoever. In fact, to me it's like, I, like I said, in in the, you know, when I'm talking to my buddy, you know, talking to, to Choe, you know, every once in a while in a family tree, an artist comes along and, and, and they're, they're gonna talk about all this stuff and they're gonna process it all into a digestible format for other people. And so, so then you go, well, what am I doing? Am I trying to wake people up here?

Joe (01:01:04):

You know, I, I got asked to speak in New York at this, this Armenian event for the children of Armenia Fund. And my speech was about that, because regardless of what anybody's going to admit to or not admit to, um, in terms of the, the Armenian genocide, we all have to move on. And, and it's really hard, e specially with like, what's going on in Artsakh right now. It's like very difficult. 'cause it's drumming all of this up again. But we have to turn to spirituality, I think, I think it's a time in the world. And, and Jung talked about this back in the thirties, where, you know, technology was increasing at this exponential level. And, and he, he theorized that if we didn't increase morality at the same rate, we were going to get into big trouble. And I think that technology jumped morality, but I think the scales are now flipping back. And I think that there is, there is a lot of talk and return, which is why I think psychedelics are making a big comeback. I think the scales are evening out, um, that there's been this kind of cerebral approach to try to conquer the world. But, but in doing so, we've negated our own connection to, to the earth. I'm getting very heady right now, you know, but, but I, I just think that I also

Moby (01:02:13):

Want, like, like I said, I've, I've got my sort of like my, there's a

Joe (01:02:16):

Roadmap in my head

Moby (01:02:17):

And I keep looking at the Red book because there's also the sort of the geographic aspect of where I'd like to get to, which is Carl Jung and Bill Wilson and Aldous Huxley. Mm-Hmm.

Joe (01:02:28):

<affirmative>. Oh God. Yeah.

Moby (01:02:29):

Okay. So not to try and be pedantic or pedestrian or something else. It starts with PED.

Joe (01:02:36):

Did you do really well on the SAT verbal?

Moby (01:02:39):

I did much better on the SAT verbal than the math. Okay.

Joe (01:02:42):

It's just,

Moby (01:02:43):

All right.

Joe (01:02:43):

Um, I could see that you used in institution in an interview once, and I was like, oh my God. Yeah. In institution. Yeah.

Moby (01:02:49):

Sort of carefree care

Joe (01:02:50):

Less. I remember this interview where used you used and I went and got a dictionary Yeah. Before we had phones. So Yeah. I was like,

Moby (01:02:56):

Okay. So correct me if I'm wrong, you're in Los Angeles. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. You're living the life of a, like a tortured, drunk

Joe (01:03:03):

Drunken sailor. Yes.

Moby (01:03:05):

Yeah. Drunken sailor. But you're also like having career success

Joe (01:03:09):

A little bit,

Moby (01:03:09):

And the world is validating you a

Joe (01:03:11):

Little bit. I had enough to not wind up dead.

Moby (01:03:15):

So where were you living at this point, and where, in terms of going out and looking for trouble, where were you doing that

Joe (01:03:21):

<laugh>? Well, back in the day before, cell phone cameras, everybody went out every night. I mean, everybody went

Moby (01:03:25):

Out. Everybody in Los Angeles. Oh,

Joe (01:03:26):

Yeah. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. You come to LA and it was like, you know, that was like in the wake of swingers Mm-Hmm. You know, the, the movie Swingers. Oh, yeah. And, and it was kind of like

Moby (01:03:34):

You mentioned Vince Vaughn earlier.

Joe (01:03:36):

Vince is a friend. Yeah, yeah, yeah. <laugh> and, uh, you know, but also, like, we're not that far removed from the Sunset Strip, so there's still like, fun to be had and, and no one's out there filming you and there aren't really forums and blogs to then like, talk about every single Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And there wasn't like a book market for women who are out there with guy. You know, like I, I hear from my friends that it's rampant and

Moby (01:03:58):

It is one of, one of my, one of the things I'm grateful. Well, I'm grateful for the fact that when I was out drinking and doing drugs, it was sort of before social media. Right. Sort of before camera phones, before Uber and before Fentanyl.

Joe (01:04:12):

Oh God. Yeah. Right,

Moby (01:04:13):

Right. So, okay, so you're in Los Angeles going out every night. Where were, yeah. Were you more, I'm, this is my own, like, taxonomical approach to addiction. Like, as we know, like there's some people who stayed at home and drank. There's some people like me who loved Yeah. Drinking anywhere, but I love dive bars. Like I was,

Joe (01:04:31):

I was a scumbag, man, I love dive bars. There was a place called the White Pony, which was on Western and Sunset, like around there. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. It's run by this Hungarian woman named Vicki. And she would make you hot dogs while you drank. Like, she would like feed you like, like, like a mom. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And she would get you drink. Oh, he would have a hot dog, honey, you know, I'm <laugh>. You should meet my daughter. And I'm like, oh, okay. You know, and I love, I love the great jukebox. Yeah. I'm a huge music head. So I would get in there early monopolize the, the jukebox,

Moby (01:04:58):

Because I was, you know, like some people fancy wine drinker. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> as opposed like, no

Joe (01:05:04):

Smoke indoors rips in the red leather pool hall. Tattoos. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was

Moby (01:05:10):

Like, there was a place in New York, it was my favorite. It was called, there was Mars, the club where I used to dj, but there's a place called Mars Bar. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. It was,

Lindsay (01:05:17):

That was very, very, very tiny.

Moby (01:05:19):

Tiny, yeah. Like, like

Lindsay (01:05:20):

Literally that far

Moby (01:05:21):

Apart. It's so small. I used to go there. Yeah. And so it was like ex-cons hung out there. Yeah. Strippers. Prostitutes. Like, it was basically a Lou Reed song. I

Lindsay (01:05:29):

Saw a guy put a nail this long into his nose at the Mars bar once. Yeah.

Joe (01:05:32):

Love it. Love it.

Moby (01:05:34):

Probably eek friend of mine from aa, I think so. Covered in tattoos. He was a Yes. Yeah. He was actually a Coney Island sideshow freak. Yes, sweetheart. Delightful man. <laugh>. So, setting the scene. So it's the nineties you're Yeah. Drinking. You're out there smoking two packs of cigarettes a day. Yeah. When did you start to realize you had a problem and when, what's your sobriety date, if you don't mind me asking?

Joe (01:05:54):

Sure. No, I, listen, I knew I had a problem the whole time. We used to joke about being alcoholics, you know, we were maniacs. We knew it, I knew it, but it was kind of like joking. And there was you, I was so wrapped up in the romanticism of it all, even though the ship's going down, you're like, there's no way. There's no, this is gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna get to, we're gonna get to England, we're gonna go to <laugh> across the Atlantic. Right. This is fine. You know, it's just a little hole. And, um, my sobriety date is August 26th, 2002. Wow. So that was, wow. That was day one. August six. Yeah. So

Moby (01:06:22):

You got, this is 22 years?

Joe (01:06:24):

This'll be, yeah, 20. I'm like 21 and a half as we speak. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But, you know, look, it's interesting because, you know, getting sober was, like I said, it, it was waking up to the fact that something needed to change and what needs to change everything in a lot of ways, <laugh> not unlike what my father did for a profession, except I had to do it to myself. I had to then take apart the entire generator, put all the pieces out, clean every single one of them, and then put them back together. And if there was one thing outta place, I had to take it all apart again and put it back together. And then I had to go hire people, or I had to go meet people and search out people that could help me then build a better generator or a cleaner way of producing energy.

Joe (01:07:06):

You know? I mean, it just became this kind of lifelong, this lifelong search. And, um, you know, so yeah, you jump off, you know, you, you go, okay, this has to end. I'm, I'm hurting myself, I'm hurting others. I can't do this anymore. And I have to wake up. And then, you know, you, you travel the world and you meet some really, really interesting people. Have a lot of really interesting things to say. And, um, you know, the genealogy of it all and following my, my, my family tree and having a conversation with Dr. Gabor Maté about how the Armenian thing kind of played out and how that affected alcoholism and, and, and just overall health in my family. And, um, that helps you see things, you know? And then, and then you start talking about those things. And before you know it, all of a sudden it's like, um, I always relate it to wearing glasses. I wear really thick, thick glasses. Like, my eyes are so bad I can't get corrective eye surgery. So I'm wearing contacts right now. Hey, you guys,

Moby (01:07:59):

Me

Joe (01:07:59):

Too. It's horrible. So I wake up and I'm blind. And even when I think back to being a little kid, it's like, I never, I didn't wanna go play catch, because I think looking back, it's like I couldn't see, and I don't want something whizzing at my face. And so, you know, I, I had that kind of sense, I think, to my own self-image. Like, I, I didn't, I just didn't know who I was until, you know, you start unraveling these things and Yeah. Kind of like sobriety's the jump off place, but then it's like all of these dominoes start falling into place, and, and the picture keeps getting clearer and clearer. Like when you go to the eye doctor and they go A or B, and you go B, and they go A or B, a, you know, and they keep clear, clear, clear. I'm on, I'm kind of like in this crazy, like, accelerated, um, version of that.

Moby (01:08:45):

Did you get sober once and that's it? Or was it, yeah, I mean, I

Joe (01:08:47):

Skidded for like a summer. 'cause I was like, there's no way I'm going to, you know, I'm like, this isn't for me, like this, this can't be right. I'll figure this out. And, um, I, I'd like kind of get like 28, 29 days under my belt, and then, oh, it's 4th of July and yeah, there's a party, and what am I gonna do? Not, and then like, right back to zero, less than zero. Um, you know, and there were bar fights. There was like crazy stuff that went on. I thought I lost an eye at one point then. Um, real. And

Moby (01:09:14):

Were the hangovers real alley? Were the hangovers really bad?

Joe (01:09:17):

I mean, well then there was also Blue Mondays. 'cause you know, once, once, um, you know, electronic, well, God, if I could have just stayed with drum and bass and house music, everything would've been okay. But it, but

Moby (01:09:29):

It moved. It just stayed with acid. Everything would've been fine. <laugh>.

Joe (01:09:33):

It, it moved in a progressive trance.

Moby (01:09:35):

Oh, yeah.

Joe (01:09:36):

Uh, which, uh, you know, nothing like having a sweaty grown man fanning you with a giant piece of cardboard while rubbing vix vapor rub in your temples. So

Moby (01:09:47):

Vix vapor rub the smell of rave, maybe not now, but for the longest time, the smell of rave was the smell of Vix vapor. But why it brought on just the sensation of ecstasy and everything. Like yes, it made your skin tangle

Joe (01:09:59):

Ecstasy. And that sound, that wha wha wha wha wha like that all day. Sit on the speaker and just listen to that. Wha you know, zeto de bass dooms night, I, I mean, I still listen to it or, or heaven sent by si uh, dig weed. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> bedrock. Like some of those songs when when they play, I'm like, Ugh, my jaw starts grinding. Yeah. You know, but that got me right to where I always, that that was it. It was like once, once you find that thing that makes you feel the way you wanna feel, it's like, like, like I was saying before or or about to say before, it's like when you explain it to a quote unquote normie, a non-ad, it's like, look, you'll never understand it because you don't know what it's like to like, feel like you had a headache your entire life. And then someone hands you aspirin in the form of Captain Morgan rum, or acid, or ecstasy, or cro cocaine, whatever it is. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And you take that thing and the headache goes away.

Moby (01:10:53):

Not just your headache, but the world's headache.

Joe (01:10:56):

Yes. You love the world. You are, you feel is a spiritual experience, which what Yung said to Bill Wilson, which is, you know, in one of his letters, I'm paraphrasing, but it was something in the gist of like, all addicts are, are looking for a spiritual experience.

Moby (01:11:10):

So this is, now we're getting, eh,

Joe (01:11:11):

Did you like my segue? Yeah,

Moby (01:11:13):

That was great. Thank you for taking us there, <laugh>. Um, so yeah, so I also think it's really interesting you mentioned, uh, the White Pony on Sunset and Western. Yeah. But that's like right down the hill from where Carl Jung used to speak in Beachwood Canyon. Oh. Um, it's also right down the hill from where Aldous Huxley lived. Wow. And as we know, Aldous Huxley became friends with Bill Wilson and Lois Wilson

Joe (01:11:36):

Huxley had it. Right. Everybody looked to Orwell. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, because I think the Soviet Union we're talking about like kind of the, the, the repression of human beings and that whole experiment as it played out in, in, in communist Russia, you know, everybody was so focused on, I guess like the kind of the, the, the Soviet version of, of, of, of like human control. And that like books would be banned and that would be the end of civilization. But then, you know, once you hit 1985 and 84 really didn't go that way. And I think the world that we're living in today is, is, is is a world of Huxley, you know, much

Moby (01:12:11):

More. So. Yeah. It,

Joe (01:12:12):

It, it's that. It's, it's not that people aren't gonna read books because books are banned. People aren't gonna read books because they've got everything else they, they, they want and need. Like, we're so inundated with comfort. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> that, that you wouldn't wanna read a book because you have all this

Moby (01:12:27):

Other stuff to do. It's too challenging. Yeah.

Joe (01:12:28):

Yeah. Like we we're now, like they, they figured it out. It was like AI unleashed on human beings in the form of social media is, is just like, it went right to the gooey center of humans. And it's like, yeah, we, we, we know what you like, we know how to feed you. We we're gonna give you so much of what you like, that you're just, you're gonna stop producing. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I mean, it's Huxley's world. It's Brave New World.

Moby (01:12:49):

Um, yeah. So, so Bill Wilson,

Joe (01:12:51):

Anyway, sorry, I digress.

Moby (01:12:52):

Oh no, that's, I think you didn't, that's, it's actually like a really relevant and completely fascinating. 'cause it also is that that hu that search for comfort, the search for, and like it Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, maybe there's a search for meaning as well. But we have been reduced to this species of, like, the soul criteria for evaluating our place in the world is how do I feel?

Joe (01:13:15):

Right. And

Moby (01:13:16):

One of the things I was really fascinated to talk about and to talk about more later is the spiritual aspect of sobriety. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Because for example, I don't know what your guys' experience was, but when I got sober, I was like, okay, I'm walking into a room and this means I stopped drinking and I hang out with sad alcoholics <laugh>, and like

Joe (01:13:38):

There's Yeah. The old guy in the trench coat Yeah. In the church basement.

Moby (01:13:41):

Like the cool, what am I doing here? Like, the sober bartender with tattoos. So at least it's kind of cool and there's stuff to look at, but I didn't know when I got sober that there was a spiritual component. Mm. And it was such a fascinating, the most wonderful bait and switch. Like you go in to get sober and you end up with this unbelievably expanded spiritual life and awareness. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, like, so much so that, like, you know, when I got involved in the 12 steps, like the only step that involves addiction is the first one.

Joe (01:14:14):

It's the only one that mentions alcohol. And there's like 700 different 12 step groups, and they just switch out that, that first step signifier. Yeah. And, um, yeah. And I, I try to explain that to people and it's also like, people trip up over the God thing and it's like, look, just if you think you know what God is,

Moby (01:14:29):

Go with that. Right.

Joe (01:14:31):

Like, group of, I'm gonna tell you, you're probably wrong. I mean, like, yeah. Like the, the idea of saying like, I mean, Campbell thought it was so ridiculous that, that a human being would, would think that they could even fathom what God is. Well,

Moby (01:14:42):

This, so you've hit on one of my favorite moments in sobriety when I was doing the 12 steps, the third step made, you know, made a decision to turn our life and will over to the hair of God as we understood God. And I wrestled with this, and I wrestled with it. And eventually I had the most wonderful realization, which is the God of my understanding is a God that I could never understand. Yeah. And I was just like, that's the answer. Like,

Joe (01:15:05):

Well, well, you know, and I've gotten into this place, which again is my own intellect trying to explain, but like, just the idea that God doesn't know what God is. God is using us to try to understand what it is that it's this amorphous source, and it has to take physical form in order for it to go, oh, that's what it is.

Moby (01:15:27):

So it's funny you say that, 'cause I've, I've had this sort of odd theory about humans or biological life in general. And Lindsay, I don't know if I've mentioned this before. 'cause it's a, it's kind of, it's just a theory. I don't even know if I believe it. But basically I think that the universe has no physical form. I think it, the universe exists on dimensions we can't conceive of. Yes. It's not bound by time, it's not bound by gravity. But what the universe has done is broken off pieces of itself and given it physical form so that we can go back into the universe and teach the universe our experience.

Joe (01:16:03):

Well, it, to me, that's the only way being Armenian. It, it's the only, well, being Armenian being African, you know, uh, uh, being German, <laugh> being Welsh, you know, whatever it all is, you know, the history of the world. It, it's, it's the only way that I can possibly fathom a non interference clause. Because if there was this benevolent, all powerful thing, why would it allow this to go on there? There has to be some sort of non interference, which then lends itself to free will or kind of this free will experiment. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I don't know, whatever the double helix lands and grows and, you know, and then it ends, and then another one lands somewhere else. And let's go watch that show.

Moby (01:16:45):

And the tardigrades move to a different planet. <laugh>. Yes. Um, okay. As we start to get towards the end of our conversation, there's one thing you said earlier that tied back to good old Carl Jung here. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, which is the shadow self. You talked about like taking acid and going like 15 rounds with your shadow <laugh>. Yeah. So during the pandemic, I went back and reread a lot of like, philosophy that I had read when I was at college. And I went back and reread some young, and I was reacquainted with that concept of the shadow self in the most fascinating way. 'cause when I was growing up, I thought the shadow self was nine inch nails. I thought the shadow self was like angry, dark, vicious, like the tough, the murderous id. And then at some point I realized my shadow is simply awkward. My shadow is the part of me that I don't wanna look at. But it's not the, it's not the dark part. It's not the dangerous part. It's the uncomfortable part. It's the vulnerable part. Mm. I don't know if that resonates with either of, of you. 'cause I think that the Jungian idea of a shadow self has been seen to be this sort of like this dark Lord as opposed to the uncomfortable self. Well, I

Lindsay (01:17:59):

Think there's something darker than anger, which is the shadow part of me as the part that disconnects, that doesn't wanna connect with the world outside of me. And then that, that lighter part, the part that I enjoy more is the part that wants to be a part of the world around me.

Joe (01:18:15):

Yeah. I mean, the, the thing that I think I wrestle with is, um, this idea of, of victimhood or a perception of being a victim, which I think is very attractive. And, but I think that once you are a victim in any way, shape, or form, justifiably so that then bleeds out and permeates into every single part of your life. And that's the thing that I really, I, I need to keep in that cage, you know, because there's a bit of it that like wants me to disconnect from my feelings. And, and, and the idea is like, I have to feel my feelings in order to process them, which I've gotten a lot better at. Again, we're talking about like feelings and how you feel and kind of that huxley, you know. But to me it, it's been this real balancing act, um, understanding that things are to be overcome.

Joe (01:19:03):

And, and I, and I had a, a teacher in, at Carnegie Mellon named Victoria Santa Cruz, who was a Peruvian woman who was like, kind of world renowned. If you meet anyone from Peru and you say, oh, do you know Victoria Santa Cruz? And they're like, ah, Victoria, you know, they go, she was like this national treasure. And, and she used to spout all sorts of like, amazingly, you know, wise things. And, um, she tried to instill in all of us this, um, kind of sense of self-discovery, like to disconnect from the head. And, you know, the bo the word incorporate the cuerpo of the body, you have to incorporate in the body. So disconnect your head and it's here. And the feeling and, and life. And she would say things like, um, she'd say, okay, kid, when you would, she would inevitably give you this, these exercises to do.

Joe (01:19:46):

And when you screwed up the choreography, you would know why, and it would tell you everything you needed to know about yourself. And so it was almost like a class where you would, you would come into confrontation with your, the shadow or the thing that, that little gremlin inside of you that's flipping switches. And, and, um, she would say this thing like, um, she'd say, okay, kid, the moment you say I did it is the moment the devil walks in the door. Okay. <laugh>, you know, and as a performer, like, I've had those moments on stage where like, I nailed that moment so fully, I was so present and so rich on stage that I don't even know what the hell is coming next. And I don't even know what my line is, you know? And now you're out, you're out. You know. And, um, and so for me, I think it's, it's this real struggle to keep that balance where, you know, I, I don't let that, that ego, that that maniacal dictator waiting to happen, that's waiting to get power so that it can hold, you know, I can be right so someone else can be wrong.

Joe (01:20:43):

You know, it's like, no, no, no. Like, it doesn't matter. You know, it doesn't, not to get depressed in the fact that I think it was your, you your words. The, the world is 14 billion years old and we're gonna live a few decades. And that it's just too much for anyone to bear. Not going fully into that, but also like, just kind of like, I'm just gonna try to be human where I think I ran from being human for so long and I don't know why, you know?

Moby (01:21:10):

Well, humanity is messy. Humanity is vulnerable. That's one of the things when I go to 12 step meetings, I'll be sitting there and my immediate reaction is to be kind of scared. Like, uhoh, everybody here knows more than I do. Everybody here is cooler than I am. Everybody here is better looking than I am. Like they, they're all like the cool kids. And I'm gonna have to sit here in the back and like, hope they don't notice me. And then I remember, okay, I'm in a 12 step meeting. Every single person here has experienced the true dark night of the soul multiple times. Oh yeah. Every and sometimes being reminded of that shared humanity. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> like, and it's easy in a 12 step meeting and be like, oh, everybody here has cried themselves to sleep.

Joe (01:21:53):

No, nobody got there. Yeah. On a winning streak. Yeah.

Moby (01:21:56):

Like, things are great. I'm gonna go sit in the church basement with a bunch of homeless guys

Joe (01:22:00):

On Friday night while my friends are out. Yeah. No, no, no, no.

Moby (01:22:04):

So it's that reminder that the human condition re I mean, c certainly, and I don't want, I don't mean this as an expression of privilege, but like the human condition affects all humans. Yeah. You know, and certainly there's some,

Joe (01:22:16):

Somebody, there's somebody in a group saying, yeah, oh, here comes that rockstar guy who had that huge video Yeah. That I love and sold millions and millions of albums and you know what I mean? Like, and, and you know, everybody has their own trip.

Moby (01:22:28):

And so it's just that reminding ourselves that like the human condition, like we're all struggling. Like everybody deals with illness, everybody deals with loss, everybody deals with questions of meaning and significance.

Joe (01:22:42):

Yeah. And, and that's, I mean, that's what to me, is the dark part of social media, for example, is that people can kind of live in anonymity and really, um, sit behind a keyboard and kind of discount the fact that everybody's going through something. Or that everyone has feelings no matter who you are.

Moby (01:23:02):

And to present such a selective, edited version of yourself. Yes. Like, I love, like for example, we're sitting here and I'm, I don't wanna make you uncomfortable, but like, it's wonderful to see certain sides of you. Like there's a vulnerable side to you. There's an enthusiastic side to you. There's a, a very lighthearted, joyful side to you. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And it's really, it's, it's, it's really endearing. And sometimes when people present themselves in social media Sure. Like they're presenting them this one dimensional version of themselves. Not you, but I'm just saying. But,

Joe (01:23:38):

But, but also, like, I think society, I think religion, I think Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I think, uh, large organizations have real trouble with nuance. Mm. Which leads you to, well, you're not a nerd and you are. And which is why sometimes people are like, well, I'm sorry, I've never seen anything you've been in. I don't know who you are, you know, whatever. And I'm like, I don't care. In fact, I like it better when you don't, because then you can actually get to know me. Or we, we, we can talk without some sort of manicured You can hide out on social media for decades. Yeah. If you want, you know, it's like a, it's like a bad relationship. Like where you can just hide all those parts of yourself, which is like kind of antithetical. We're talking about like going out to clubs in like the late nineties, two thousands. And it's like before cell phone cameras and social media and blogging and things like that. And it's like, you actually had to go see someone in the wild Yeah. And go and talk to them and then hang out with them and get their vibe and see how your energy mixed Where now Yeah.

Moby (01:24:31):

The good old days when you, you couldn't Google someone, you Yeah. You,

Joe (01:24:34):

You. Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Lindsay (01:24:35):

I miss it. But it also makes people afraid of how they are perceived on so many levels. And there's this fear of judgment because it's not just the person in the room that's experiencing you. It's people you don't know. Unknown faces from anywhere could find you on a Google search and go to your Instagram and see your personal life. And I think that there's Yeah. That does something to a human soul when you are constantly considering your own, uh, perception. Yeah. That's, or how

Moby (01:25:01):

You're perceived. That's why, that's why Bubbles. That's the right idea. Yeah.

Lindsay (01:25:04):

Bubbles. You're doing everything

Moby (01:25:05):

Correctly. Love two people, hate everyone else.

Joe (01:25:06):

That's it. I mean, yeah. Kind of. That's it. <laugh>. So

Moby (01:25:09):

Again, so we've, we've taken up Oh, poor Bubbles. <laugh> Bubbles.

Joe (01:25:13):

Groundling. Whatcha arguing about, whatcha gonna

Moby (01:25:15):

Be, she just, she's just mad at sleeping. She's mad at social media.

Joe (01:25:18):

She is. She doesn't like it. Yeah. She's

Moby (01:25:19):

Been reading those comments.

Joe (01:25:19):

That's why she doesn't have her own profile. Yeah. <laugh>. She's not concerned. Good for

Moby (01:25:22):

Her. Um, okay. As we start to wrap up, there's one thing I've noticed while I've been, many things I've noticed while I've been sitting here, but one is skulls.

Joe (01:25:32):

Uh,

Moby (01:25:33):

It's fascinating to me. 'cause we're talking about honesty. We're talking like, like a degree of sort of like getting a spiritual life where you're honest, where you're seen. And it's been so interesting seeing skulls everywhere. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. 'cause sometimes skulls are seen as tough, but they're also a reminder and there's an honesty. So I'm curious to know like why you have surrounded yourself with all these artistic representations of skulls

Joe (01:25:58):

<laugh>. Yeah. That's a good question. Well, some people like carpe diem as a mantra or a motto. And, and the flip side of that is Memento Mori, you know, someday it's all gonna be gone. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so I think it is a reminder of that to me. Um,

Moby (01:26:16):

I think Memento Mori is a Latin for remming remembrance of death. Yeah. Reminder of

Joe (01:26:20):

Death. Remember, we, we all must die. Yeah. You know, and, um, there's actually a couple pieces in here that are actually titled Memento Mori that I bought because they were called Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. You know, so I kind of like collected a few of them. But, um, you know, I, um, I don't know. I, I just think that death is not the worst thing that can happen. My great-grandmother, um, my Armenian great-grandmother, um, she used to say, I guess in Orthodox Armenian fear, God, you have to fear God. And I don't think it's to fear this Old Testament God that's gonna like, kill you in an earthquake or something. I think it was more about, um, fearing unrealized potential fearing straying from the path that is presented to you fearing a, a life unrealized, um, once you wake up, you, you, you cannot go back to sleep.

Joe (01:27:04):

Um, so, so it just becomes this march towards this inevitability. And so once you know that this, the skull is at the finish line waiting for you Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> then, then I think there's a perspective to life that I think makes it easier for me to, to live under. Which is like, okay, well what are we doing today? Or, you know, what's the story we're gonna tell today? And also I think it takes off some of the pressure. 'cause it's like, listen. Yeah. Like, unless you are, you know, Oppenheimer or you discovered the double helix, you know, like you're gonna be a footnote. Like no one's ever going to remember you. And that's okay. Yeah. So whoever, whatever you think you're going through, or whatever you think you did is not a big deal. And even if you did something extraordinary, it was probably some internal antenna raised up that got beamed into you, which you can't even take credit for anyway, you know, artistically or, or, you know, scientifically whatever. I mean, um, so once you get the, it's like, okay, the pressure's off. You know, and it's like, you know what, what, what, what kills the ego more than taking a nap, you know, or, or going to sleep <laugh>. It's, it's like, just let it go. You know? And, and, but also at the same time, like, try to do something useful. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, or, or try to understand your place in this thing or understand that it's just this constant search. And

Moby (01:28:21):

There's, there's one other aspect to that that I try and remind myself, well, first off, the fact that for three and a half billion years, everything that's been alive has died. Yeah. So it's hard to take it too personally. Yeah. You know, it's, it's like imagine if only 10% of humans died. Yeah. Then you could be like, oh, what a shame. I died. But, uh, <laugh>, yeah. The fact that it's every biological thing that has ever lived Yeah. Has died. But the other thing I try to remind myself of, that's hard. 'cause I am kind of selfish. And so cystic is remembering like the confusion that the other 9 billion people have around mortality, around significance, around fear. Like, like looking at the, it's so easy for me to look at the world and be like, to judge them, you know, to, to, to judge other people. To sit in a place of like, even like sort of hostility and contempt, but then remind myself like, oh, existence is terrifying. <laugh>. You know, and everyone's struggling through it. Very few people I think get to the place where context and recognition, you know, looking at a skull and being like, yep. That, that could be Hitler, that could be Gandhi, that could be MLK Jr. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. That could be Napoleon, that could be whomever. Um, well,

Joe (01:29:39):

In the realization that those people you mentioned were products of the time they were born in the place that they were born. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, um, you know, I'm German, so are we not gonna talk about what means to be

Moby (01:29:52):

Fair? You're kind of everything, kind

Joe (01:29:53):

Of everything. But that's the point is that I'm victim and perpetrator on both sides all the way back. And so are, does that mean we shouldn't talk about it? Does that mean if I talk about it, I could be accused of being something that my ancestors were, you know, I mean, sure. I'm German, my roommate in college is a famous Jewish cantor. What does that have to do with anything? You know? And, and, and to me that's the clue that tells me that. Like, it is about talking about, you know, what, what people were going through at certain times. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> or what was going on in the world at times. Which is why, you know, I love history. I think I've always been drawn to that, but it's, again, it's like, it's an exploration of the human experience while we're down here because we're gonna be gone. And what happens, like everything we've learned gets transmitted back to some database and then we move on to the next thing. I, I mean, I don't know.

Moby (01:30:47):

The wonderful liberation of not knowing. Yeah.

Joe (01:30:50):

And, and, and I'm like, I'm totally cool with that. There was a great 1968 interview with Kubrick, Stanley Kubrick and, uh, Playboy. He was saying that, um, at the end of it, he, because they were talking about 2001 and how it was like this, you know, kind of him I guess like questioning his own mortality or questioning the universe and his place in it. And, and, um, kind of like the journey into outer space was actually the journey inward. And, and, and so they were talking to him about his thoughts on religion and, and spirituality. And at the end of it, I mean, I'm para I'm paraphrasing, but it was something to the effect of like, you know, the, the scariest concepts for a human being is the fact that, um, that, uh, God is impartial Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. That, that's a scary idea. But I think once you can get past that, well now you can really start living. And, and I think that the skull is my reminder of that

Moby (01:31:41):

Constant Memento Mori. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I wanna wrap up 'cause I feel like we've been monopolizing your time, <laugh> for far too long and the,

Joe (01:31:50):

I can talk about this stuff forever. So thank

Moby (01:31:52):

You. And

Joe (01:31:52):

We can, this is a great excuse,

Moby (01:31:54):

Lynn is, I feel like I'm feeling like a guilty patriarchal man. All

Lindsay (01:31:58):

Of my questions were just going to be about theater, but I feel like what we got into is far more spiritually meaningful to me than, um,

Joe (01:32:05):

Were you a musical theater major or a

Lindsay (01:32:07):

I did it all.

Joe (01:32:08):

<laugh>. She sang it. You were a triple threat. Mm-Hmm.

Lindsay (01:32:10):

<affirmative>. Well, I didn't really dance very well, but that was Oh, come on. Kind of my thing. Part of my brand in college. <laugh> not

Moby (01:32:16):

Dancing. Well,

Lindsay (01:32:17):

Dancing. Dancing.

Joe (01:32:17):

Yeah. Not dancing. Well, it was kind of my branded magic. Mike. Yeah. <laugh>.

Lindsay (01:32:21):

Yeah. I love where, I love where this went and I didn't even, I had all these questions, but I feel very honored that we took the road that we did and that I got to be, be a part of it with both of you.

Moby (01:32:32):

Oh, and lastly, can I say something that might make you uncomfortable, but I think is incredibly sweet. Okay. There is one woman out there who is your biggest fan. It's Lindsay's

Lindsay (01:32:40):

Mom. It's my mom. Really? She's like, can you get a, a picture with of you and Moby with him? And I was like, maybe mom. I mean, I can ask. She's just, she's a huge fan. And she was obsessed with, um, with True Blood. True Blood. She was obsessed with that show. I think I

Joe (01:32:53):

Have a picture downstairs I could probably sign from, from

Lindsay (01:32:56):

Uba. Stop. She would, she would die

Joe (01:32:58):

Actually. Yeah. I have a couple actually. Oh my God. I, me, I have like me with my Wolf and then like me, you know? Yeah. Oh

Lindsay (01:33:03):

My God. Yeah. No, she, she loved

Joe (01:33:05):

It. Is she gonna watch Deal or No Deal Island? Yes.

Lindsay (01:33:07):

She, she probably will

Joe (01:33:08):

On NBC. Okay, great.

Moby (01:33:09):

So, okay, so you mentioned that fun. That

Lindsay (01:33:12):

Was song really solid. That was

Moby (01:33:13):

A good segue. Yeah. You mentioned that in the text. And, um, can you, does it, do you have to go to an island to, is

Lindsay (01:33:19):

It like a naked and afraid game show? Do

Moby (01:33:20):

They drop you in a swamp and you get to like, ride alligators?

Joe (01:33:23):

You are in, well, there's 13 guests that are invited to a depraved, billionaires really jungle island. For real? Yes. And he is in search of, they,

Lindsay (01:33:33):

Is he gonna hunt? Does he hunt them

Joe (01:33:35):

Most dangerous game? Yeah. <laugh>. Well, the, the banker is in search of their equal. And so there is $200 million split into briefcases that are hidden all over the island. And there is a series of competitions between the guests to try to find the highest value cases that will then be put on a board that night in a jungle temple, in a game of deal or no deal. And, uh, you can be eliminated by the banker and be kicked off the island, or you can survive and whatever money you win then goes into a cumulative pot that then the final contestant will play for in, in the final episode. Only one. It's like an ungodly amount of money. It's like lifechanging like crazy, crazy, crazy amount of money.

Moby (01:34:17):

So the, the finance part of me is like, how in the world does a network make $200 million

Joe (01:34:22):

Back? I'm, I'm trying to figure out where that money comes. Yeah, there are, yeah, there's, there are all of these policies in place and things like that because, you know, there's not a set amount Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> in the final game. Like, it could fluctuate and it could fluctuate by a lot. And, uh, so that was a lot of the fun of the game was seen.

Moby (01:34:40):

And where did you guys make it?

Joe (01:34:41):

Uh, we made it on a remote jungle island. Oh,

Moby (01:34:44):

A remote Jungle island.

Lindsay (01:34:45):

Oh, I always wanted to go there. <laugh>.

Moby (01:34:49):

Um, okay, so wait, so, 'cause this sounds fascinating. I don't know much about the world of game. Is it a game show? Well, yeah.

Joe (01:34:56):

You call it game reality. You call a reality competition series. Okay. But there's a social aspect to it. Where

Lindsay (01:35:01):

Can they, can they make teams between each

Joe (01:35:03):

Other? Oh yeah. And, and like alliances there at one point, I'm not gonna get too much, but there was a 20 minute screaming match where I'm, I'm just standing there watching people scream at each other in a giant hundred foot jungle tree. I, it sounded like a thunderbolt about 50 yards away from us is crack wheel turn. And this huge tree just goes down in the jungle like 50 yards from where we were shooting. And just all the debris flies up. That's

Moby (01:35:30):

Your fault. You did it with your mind.

Joe (01:35:33):

I kinda know what they're screaming. And then they screamed at each other for another five minutes. I mean, it was like, you, it gets, it like goes like I, it's drama. Yeah. There are pe there was a lot of tension. There's a lot of money, there's a lot of people playing for very personal things. Family members or, you know, whatever. All these things are, you know, that they are playing for. Like, they're playing to try to change their life and it gets intense and fun.

Moby (01:35:57):

Okay. Most important question. Last question. Um, was Bubbles on Deal or No Deal Island?

Joe (01:36:02):

Bubbles was there? Yeah, I have pictures of her inside of like a million dollar be <laugh>. That's really cute. Yeah.

Moby (01:36:09):

Oh my gosh. Okay. So we should, the, the sun is setting over beautiful southern California. The air is coming in off the ocean. Yep. Smells delightful. <laugh>. So, um, Joe, thank you for having us over and Thank you. It's coming over. This was really wonderful and I'm glad Bubbles didn't kill anyone yet, yet. So like, we're gonna turn off the camera so like, then Bubbles will be free to go on her murder. She's

Joe (01:36:37):

Gonna go get fed. Yeah, it's her feeding time, so yeah.

Moby (01:36:39):

What, what does she like eat fingers? It looks like, it looks,

Joe (01:36:41):

She <laugh>.

Moby (01:36:42):

It's just

Joe (01:36:42):

Human flesh. Yeah. She, um, yeah, she has a special digestive diet. She was a rescue. So go out there and rescue a pet. She was, uh, yeah, she had, she had bladder stones when I got her poor little buns.

Moby (01:36:53):

Poor

Joe (01:36:53):

Boo boo. Oh my god. That goes fixed then she

Lindsay (01:36:55):

Eats special. Well, thank you so much.

Joe (01:36:57):

No, thanks for coming the best. Thanks for hanging out with me.

Lindsay (01:36:59):

Yay. Um, I hope that everyone enjoyed that conversation with Joe as much as we did. It went to places that I couldn't have guessed it would go to. And I feel like it was a joy for me to sit between two dudes just connecting.

Moby (01:37:22):

I mean, am I really a dude by comparison? Like, I feel like we're, I

Lindsay (01:37:27):

Think you have a ods to you,

Moby (01:37:29):

But I mean, here's the thing. It's like, it's the equivalent of going to a dog park, you know, a dog park where all the dogs are running around and you have like this, I don't know what it would be like, this muscly rottweiler who's just strong and is it the, you know, the apex of the dog hierarchy? That's Joe. And then over in the corner there's me like a dog with like, sort of like splotchy fur who probably smells not great and occasionally walks into things and like you throw a tennis ball for it and like accidentally the tennis ball hits the dog on the head and the dog falls over. Like that's me. Like

Lindsay (01:38:08):

Yeah. But then you give them a dog puzzle and then the dogs work it out together. And I felt like I was between dude two dogs figuring out a dog puzzle

Moby (01:38:14):

Together. But I do sometimes when I'm in the presence of like, like I met an army ranger once who was like this similar, like he, he had been like in war and was, knew how to be an army ranger and I was like, how do I even consider myself a man in the presence of someone like that? And I felt that way with Joe as well. Like I should just sort of like leave my man status at the door. And I was just like, as I said before, like the slow little dog who gets hit in the head with tennis balls.

Lindsay (01:38:39):

No, no. I feel like you guys, you've been through a lot of similar stuff together. Raves, getting sober, staying sober, and also you're both really, really smart, curious people and I found it to be so fun and fascinating to be in a conversation with both of you. And it was really fun for me personally.

Moby (01:39:01):

<laugh>. Okay,

Lindsay (01:39:02):

Great. Just to, just to hear that, hear y'all talk. And

Moby (01:39:05):

So we'll wrap up 'cause we've been talking a lot. Yeah.

Lindsay (01:39:08):

We've talked so much. And

Moby (01:39:10):

The, just in closing, before we say our thank yous, I wanted to just mention that I do have my tour coming up in September.

Lindsay (01:39:18):

So if you're in Europe or wanna be in Europe,

Moby (01:39:20):

Six dates I believe they've all been announced and yeah. And once again, the only way I would agree to do the tour is that I end up with no profits. That's weird, isn't it? Like a friend of mine sort of struck or, or texted me and she was like, wait, you're touring, but at the end of the tour you will have less money than you started out with. I was like, that's that. I don't know. It makes sense to me, but I guess it's a little strange.

Lindsay (01:39:45):

It's definitely curious. I, I mean, but also if you are in a position where that is something you can do, I think there are a lot of people that are also in the position to be able to do something like that and they just don't. Um, but you, you are, and you choose to do something with it that is meaningful and could really, really help organizations who are trying to do good things for the world.

Moby (01:40:09):

And also something I just keep coming up against is not coming up against in a bad way, but is kind of a bad way, is the importance of saving animals. For me, it's more important than anything else. You know, especially the enormity of animal suffering and how innocent animals are. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> like, if I can make, if I can do anything or take any step to help them and help alleviate suffering, I sort of feel like I have to do that. It's, it's such a, a simple binary ethical choice. Like either the choice that helps animals or a choice that's indifferent to animal suffering or harms animals. Like, well you wanna help animals, how could, how can you not, how can you not make that choice?

Lindsay (01:40:47):

I think once you have allowed the understanding of the amount of suffering that these animals endure, but also what it does to people, what it does to other animals, what it does to our planet, what it does to our oceans. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. It's like given the opportunity to do something, how can you not? But a lot of people just don't. Yeah. And so I think it's really beautiful that you do, and I hope that people are, I mean, I am inspired by it. I hope that other people are inspired by that generosity that you have.

Moby (01:41:17):

Well, thanks, <laugh>. Uh, speaking of thanks. Do you wanna say thanks? Oh yeah,

Lindsay (01:41:23):

I'd love to. Um, first of all, I wanna say thank you to Bagel who was not present for our interview, but was their in spirit. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and I also wanna say thank you to Bubbles for being a wonderful bodyguard to

Moby (01:41:33):

Joe and, and allowing us to spend time with Joe.

Lindsay (01:41:35):

She let us be in, in her space. And I'm, I'm endless grateful and you gonna say thank you to Joe. Um, and thank you to Joe. I mean, Joe led us into his home. He gave us all sodas and was just so kind to the crew and to us. And so thank you to Joe.

Moby (01:41:49):

Oh, and also Joe has a really interesting TV show. Doesn't he have Deal or No Deal on an island in the Topics

Lindsay (01:41:55):

Dealer or No Deal Island, which, um, we'll link to in the show notes. Yeah. The information on that one, it seems like a very, very fun thing. And Joe obviously loves games and overseeing games like that. I mean, he's the dungeon master at his home, but he also is the Game Master for Dealer No Deal Island. And

Moby (01:42:13):

Yeah, and, and most importantly, they, they had a trailer on set for him and Bubbles,

Lindsay (01:42:18):

Which is the most important thing. Bubbles. Bubbles was very well taken care of in the Heat. So go watch Dealer, no Deal Island with Joe as the host. But also I do wanna say thank you to Jonathan Nesvadba, um, who edits the audio for this podcast and Mike Formanski who edits the video and also shot on the day. Also, Jonathan did record on the day. And I want to say thank you to Human Content who puts this podcast out into our world.

Moby (01:42:47):

And I think that's everything.

Lindsay (01:42:48):

I think so.

Moby (01:42:49):

So we'll, we'll see and talk to you guys in two weeks. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and we'll have hopefully some more interesting news and announcements in two weeks time.

Lindsay (01:42:59):

Got a lot going on this year, so

Moby (01:43:01):

We'll talk to you soon. Bye.