Moby (00:00:11):

Hi Bagel.

Bagel (00:00:12):

Hi, Moby.

New Speaker (00:00:12):

And hi Lindsay.

Lindsay (00:00:13):

Hi, Moby.

New Speaker (00:00:14):

And hi everyone listening.

Lindsay (00:00:16):

Hi Everyone.

Moby (00:00:17):

So Lindsey and Bagel and everyone who's listening, we're going on an adventure today

Lindsay (00:00:23):

To

Moby (00:00:23):

Where, so a lot of times to state the obvious, we do the podcast here in my studio. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Sometimes we go to the outside world. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And we talk to friends and people we find inspiring. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So today we're gonna start the podcast right now, this very second in my studio

Lindsay (00:00:41):

Where everyone is familiar, they understand the space, so we can really ease them into the adventure that awaits.

Moby (00:00:47):

Yes. So yeah, we're, we're contextualizing it with familiarity. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And then we're gonna go on a springtime adventure. But don't

Lindsay (00:00:53):

Worry, you won't get too shocked or scared.

Moby (00:00:55):

We are going to go to Gentle Barn and we're going to interview Ellie Laks

Lindsay (00:01:01):

Queen.

Moby (00:01:01):

So Ellie is the founder of Gentle Barn and one of my animal rights heroes. Uh, the first time I went there, I heard her give this welcoming introduction speech about animals and about animal rights and about veganism. And it was so inspiring. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, it was like word ninja inspiring. She Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> spoke in a way that even like the hardcore carnivores in the audience, you could tell they were even receptive to what she was saying. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

Lindsay (00:01:33):

She also does this thing that I think from like a spiritual standpoint is unbelievably powerful, which is when faced with someone coming at her challenging what she does with her life, she never gets angry. She never gets frustrated. Or maybe she does on the inside, but on the outside, what she does, how she communicates is she just gets curious with these people and it's so powerful. That's such a hard thing to do. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> that, that's my ninja right there, is she just asks questions and she always stays composed and compassionate. And that's boss level <laugh>

Moby (00:02:13):

So rather than us talk about Ellie, which I love talking about Ellie, I have an idea. What, why don't we get in our electric car and drive 90 minutes and go talk to Ellie in person. Yeah, that sounds

Lindsay (00:02:26):

Really, really fun.

Moby (00:02:27):

Okay. So through the magic of technology right now we're in my studio, but for people listening and watching, probably within the next five seconds we'll be at Gentle Barn. 90 minutes away. Yep. It's like time travel. Time travel. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. Okay. So, so we'll see you in five seconds at Gentle Barn.

Moby (00:02:55):

Hi Lindsay and Bagel.

Lindsay (00:02:56):

Hi Moby.

Moby (00:02:57):

And Hi Ellie.

Ellie (00:02:58):

Hi.

Lindsay (00:02:58):

Hi, Ellie.

Moby (00:02:59):

So before we get started, can you tell us where we are?

Ellie (00:03:03):

We are at the Gentle Barn, California location in our upper barnyard,

Moby (00:03:07):

Which is also, I think, does this little area have a specific name?

Ellie (00:03:11):

Yeah. It's called Santa Clarita, California, and it's just 30 minutes north of Los Angeles. And

Moby (00:03:16):

Even more specific, we were told that this pig area has a specific name, but maybe it doesn't,

Ellie (00:03:21):

We call this our potbelly pig area.

Lindsay (00:03:23):

Is it called an island of sorts?

Ellie (00:03:25):

<laugh>? Oh, no, the island is over there. Oh,

Moby (00:03:28):

Okay.

Lindsay (00:03:29):

Okay.

Moby (00:03:29):

We've been calling this pig island <laugh>. Oh,

Lindsay (00:03:31):

I like that. We we're gonna

Ellie (00:03:32):

Keep that.

Moby (00:03:33):

Okay. And also, so before we get into it, so this is, I believe, one of my favorite stories about you was this where John Lewis lived when he was a baby and you used to sleep with

Lindsay (00:03:46):

Next to him, John Lewis

Moby (00:03:46):

The cow, John Lewis, the cow, Braveheart. So

Ellie (00:03:49):

John Lewis, the cow actually lived in my house, in my real house.

Moby (00:03:53):

Okay.

Ellie (00:03:53):

This has been the nursery though, for many, many cows before John Lewis. Okay. We raised our calf Ferdinand here.

Moby (00:04:00):

Oh, Ferdinand, that's who I met here. Yeah. Okay.

Ellie (00:04:02):

Yeah. Yep. Ferdinand, we raised him in that little shed. And

Moby (00:04:06):

You slept next to Ferdinand to keep him warm and to keep him from being despairing with loneliness.

Ellie (00:04:13):

Yeah. So me and my daughter, who was 12 ish at the time, um, Ferdinand came in and he was just newly orphaned. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And he was only a few weeks old and he just kept crying and he was in so much grief. Yeah. There was no way he was gonna make it. So me and Cheyenne decided we have to be with him. So we put on thermal socks and hats and gloves and really, really warm pajamas and coats and sleeping bags. And we moved into that shed and we stayed with him 24 7 for a full week, but then more staff and volunteers signed on for a few hours, shifts through the day and through the night to give us breaks. But we basically stayed with him for the first 30 day quarantine. He was never, ever alone. And that's why he made it because

Moby (00:04:57):

I, I met him, I think towards the, in either the middle or towards the end of this with him for 30 days straight. Um, and that was probably six years ago. Yeah.

Ellie (00:05:06):

I think he's like seven years old now. Okay.

Moby (00:05:09):

Wow. And and how big is Ferdinand now? He

Ellie (00:05:12):

Is massive. He's like 3000 pounds. He long ago outgrew this nursery and then we moved him down to our little cow pasture Yeah. At our main location. And then he quickly outgrew that. So now he actually lives at our San Cro Healing Center. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, which is 17 acres, and he has lots of room and matriarchs.

Lindsay (00:05:29):

He 3000 pounds, you gotta have some space <laugh>.

Ellie (00:05:31):

Yeah. And he's got lots of cows that are his age, so they play together and lots of matriarchs that kind of make sure he has good behavior. So he is really happy there. Aw.

Lindsay (00:05:39):

And, um, I love that he has a bunch of ladies keeping him in line. You know,

Ellie (00:05:42):

I think every handsome boy needs someone that's gonna keep 'em accountable. Life

Lindsay (00:05:47):

Lessons, people, it's important. Um, there's so much I wanna talk to you about and so many things that you've experiences you've given me and us and bagel. But I would love to take it back a little bit and talk about where you're from and how on earth you got here. Yeah. Because

Moby (00:06:05):

As we were doing our research, I couldn't find anything about your childhood. Like according to the internet, you were born in 1999 at Gentle Barn. Okay.

Ellie (00:06:14):

But that is true because that really is the date of my real birth. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> where I got to blossom into who I was always meant to be. So I like that. My birthday is August 25th, 1999 when I founded the Gentle Barn. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but you know what, my full story is in my first book, my Gentle Barn, creating a sanctuary where animals heal and children learn to hope. And actually the book starts in my childhood and it talks about like literally the reason why I am doing this. You know, going through the challenges of growing up. First of all, I always loved animals. I was an animal lover from birth. And so I think right off the bat that kind of set me off to the side where the more I loved animals and realized that the people around me didn't, I felt different.

Ellie (00:06:56):

And the more I felt different, the less I fit in and the more I retreated to animals. So there was that going on, but then I had other challenges growing up with two siblings, and there was stuff going on that also made me feel alone, made me feel misunderstood, made me not wanna be here. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And it was always animals that not only listened as I cried and made me feel wanted and valued, but they also encouraged me to keep going at times when I really didn't wanna be here. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, there were several times throughout the course of my life where I literally considered taking my life because I didn't wanna be here anymore. Um, I'm an empath. And so watching the cruelty towards animals and watching the cruelty towards other human beings, like even in the school yard, kids were so mean to other kids that I just was like, this place is not for me. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And it was always animals that kind of caught me at that last second and said, no, no, no, you have to stay, but it's gonna be all right.

Moby (00:07:52):

For me. I had a very similar experience, like growing up, the adults were chaotic and unpredictable. The adults were violent. And then going to school, same thing. Kids were violent, unpredictable, and at times really terrifying. And animals were consistent, you know, and, and fascinatingly rational from from our perspective, we might not understand their behavior, but their behavior always makes sense. And I think that's similar to you. My, my animal rights began, you know, on a very limbic level, connecting with animals when I was a little baby because they were safe and they were predictable. Yeah.

Ellie (00:08:29):

And I love how you said that, Moby, because it's so true. You know, even when I was a child, I got bit by a dog, but even that was completely understandable. I had gone around the back of their house Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, and saw the dog and got scared and ran off. And the dog was like, Hey, come back here. Yeah. And so even that didn't make me feel afraid. It, it was, it was predictable, it was understandable. I understood animals, I understood their language, and I understood my place within them, whereas for humans not Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So I love how you summed that up beautifully. That's true.

Moby (00:09:00):

Yeah. 'cause I remember when I was reading the first book, you were talking about you and Jay, Jay being your husband, who you met here.

Ellie (00:09:06):

Jay came in as a volunteer Yeah. And never laughed. <laugh>. Aw. And now we run the place together. I

Lindsay (00:09:11):

Love that story.

Ellie (00:09:13):

But he also had tremendous abuse in his childhood and was also the animals in his neighborhoods and the nearby stables that literally saved his life. So we had that in common. I think we all do. Mm-Hmm.

Lindsay (00:09:23):

<affirmative>. Absolutely.

Moby (00:09:25):

Ellie, when did, when did you have your awakening? Because I, I assume unless you're in the, in Joaquin Phoenix's family, <laugh>, I'm assuming you weren't born vegan.

Ellie (00:09:34):

No, I wish, but no, um, I was born obsessed with animals, spent every single waking moment in the woods and in the lakes with those animals, but ate what was served to me and had no idea that it was an animal. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> until I was 11 years old. And I went to school that day. And for whatever reason, there was a chicken in the school.

Moby (00:09:52):

What, what town? I, I'm just trying to like place this in my brain.

Ellie (00:09:55):

Yeah. This was in New Haven, Connecticut.

Moby (00:09:57):

Oh, new. I didn't know you were Connecticut. Yeah. <laugh>.

Lindsay (00:09:59):

Is that what you call Connecticut? Connecticut?

Moby (00:10:01):

I might have just made it up. I don't know.

Lindsay (00:10:02):

Connection sounds like kind of scary, but I like it. <laugh> because

Moby (00:10:05):

I also, you know, like I, I grew up all around Connecticut. Like Danbury, Stratford, Stanford, Norwalk, Darien, Darien, my mother's best Fr two had two best friends. One who lived in Old Lime and another who lived in Wallingford, which I think is right next to we're Sleeping Giant Mountain is so right next to New Haven. Oh,

Ellie (00:10:24):

It's beautiful there. And when we were kids there was woods and lakes and so much nature. Right. And, and

Moby (00:10:30):

Lyme disease yet. Yeah, yeah,

Ellie (00:10:32):

Yeah, yeah. It's

Moby (00:10:33):

True. So I didn't, okay. I didn't know you were, I mean, a fellow, but then again beautiful, but then also culturally kind of restrictive and especially like some of my worst childhood memories are like January, February, March in Connecticut when it's gray and it's cold. And we grew up really poor. So like, I remember being like middle of March, cold and gray in Stratford, Connecticut, my mom crying 'cause we didn't have enough money to buy food. So definitely some nice memories, but then some really sad, horrifying memories. Yeah. So, okay. Sorry to make it about me 'cause I'm a narcissist. It's easy to make it about me <laugh>. But, um, so you're 11 years old in New Haven and you had your, your epiphany. Yeah.

Ellie (00:11:16):

There was a chicken in the school in the auditorium, in a cat crate in a corner. And the auditorium was filled with kids that were running and talking and laughing and re being really loud. And literally no one could see that there was a chicken there except for me <laugh>. And I zeroed in on her almost immediately, said, oh my God, she must be terrified. Went over to her, opened the crate, pulled her out. She was shaking and trembling and I put her in my arms and I kept telling her, she's not alone, that I'm here. It's gonna be okay. Eventually she stopped shaking and she kind of started falling asleep in my arms. And the principal came in and said, ah, don't pet the chicken. Give her to me. She's gotta go to the slaughterhouse. And grabbed her from my arms and ran out of the school with her. And my little 11-year-old brain is going, what is she talking about? And that's when it hit me like a ton of bricks. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. That's chicken and rice. It's not a coincidence. That's the same word. <laugh>.

Moby (00:12:09):

Yeah.

Ellie (00:12:09):

And I went home that day and announced to my parents, I will never eat meat again. And they said, oh, that's nice dear. Eat your soup. And I said, well, didn't you hear me? I'm not gonna eat this stuff anymore. Well that found an animal just soup. I said, it's chicken soup. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I'm not going to eat it. And then they said, oh my God, you're gonna die. You're not gonna grow. And I said, well, so be it. And I stuck to my guns and I've been vegetarian ever since. Since you were

Lindsay (00:12:30):

11?

Ellie (00:12:30):

Since I was 11.

Moby (00:12:31):

And and when did the vegan conversion happen?

Ellie (00:12:34):

Yeah, so it's so interesting how it was so clear to me what animals were, and I wasn't gonna eat them anymore since 11. But I had no clue about the dairy industry, the egg industry, the honey industry, the wool industry. Until much later. I had just founded the Gentle Barn, brand new 1999. Um, there was a group of volunteers that wanted a place to have a meeting. I offered them my place. And one of the men came up to me and said, Hey, are you vegan? And I said, no, I'm American. Mm-Hmm.

Moby (00:13:00):

<affirmative>

Lindsay (00:13:01):

<laugh>. That's

Ellie (00:13:01):

How ignorant I was.

Lindsay (00:13:02):

Well, it was 1999. I mean, yeah.

Ellie (00:13:05):

So we, he had a good laugh and he said, no, no, no. Do you eat, eat animals? And I very proudly said, no, not since I was 11. He said, but what about dairy and eggs? And I said, oh, that doesn't hurt anybody. And he gave me an education right then and there. He told me the truth. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> that nobody had ever told me before. And I was absolutely horrified and went vegan on the spot. And I've been vegan ever since. It's been 25 years.

Moby (00:13:25):

Yeah. I mean, I had a similar experience 'cause I went vegetarian in 84 'cause I'm so much older than you guys. And then in 1987, same thing. I was like, oh, well I don't eat meat. I don't eat fish. So clearly I'm on the side of the angels. But I kept eating dairy, you know, eggs and dairy. And then I read John Robbins diet for New America. And that was the first time I was like, oh, oh, this, this is horrifying and fascinating. The animals who are producing the eggs and the dairy have it worse in a way. 'cause they're kept. I was like, it's simply the golden rule. Like do unto others. I was like, well, if someone gave me the choice of being killed for my meat or kept alive for my secretions and my eggs, I'd rather just be killed for my meat. Yeah. Like, so it was this moment of like, wow, I thought vegetarians were the good ones. And they are, they're well intentioned and they're oftentimes like really trying to do the right thing. But that awareness that the dairy industry is, is in some ways so much cooler and so much more sadistic. I mean, the meat industry is terrible, but the dairy industry without being too judgmental, is actually cruel. Like,

Lindsay (00:14:31):

Do you prefer torture or murder? Yeah, like, like

Ellie (00:14:33):

<laugh>. Yeah. Yeah.

Moby (00:14:34):

Kill me. Rather than keep me alive.

Ellie (00:14:36):

Uh, the dairy industry is a life of suffering from beginning to end. And the only mercy is probably when they're killed. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Um, I, I agree. Yeah.

Lindsay (00:14:44):

Um, so, so you are 11, you go vegetarian Now, outside of your family, were you, were you ever met with opposition from others outside of that? Or was it kind of a accepted thing in your world, in your life?

Ellie (00:14:58):

It wasn't accepted, but I also didn't talk about it much. I had already accepted the fact that I was somehow different. Yeah. And the people around me didn't understand me. The more I talked about animals, the more I loved animals, the more of a quote unquote freak I was seen as. So I just did my thing and didn't talk about it much. You know, when I was at a party or someone else's table, uh, I just said, no thank you. If it was animals

Lindsay (00:15:21):

Didn't go into it, it's probably no safer. Okay.

Moby (00:15:24):

So I'm gonna be really provincial for a second. Did you ever go to Bloodroot Restaurant in Bridgeport, Connecticut?

Ellie (00:15:30):

No, I didn't. But I was a child, so I, I don't

Moby (00:15:33):

Remember. Okay. So Bloodroot, that was the first vegetarian restaurant I ever went to. It was a feminist cooperative and it was in this very strange location in Bridgeport. And Bridgeport is also, it's gotten better. But it was definitely, we'll call it like a challenging place. It had the highest crime rate, I think in New England. But this group of women had this feminist collective and they opened a vegetarian restaurant. And my mom used to take me there. And then I started going there on my own when I became vegetarian in 1984. And it was so special and so counterculture and so hidden away. And I always, the other thing is, as a man, I always felt so apologetic going there that's like, I wanted to talk to the women who worked there and be like, I'm sorry. Like,

Lindsay (00:16:15):

You have to go up like fully prostrate to approach.

Moby (00:16:18):

I'm aware of the patriarchy. I'm aware it's terrible. I apologize, but I love your food.

Lindsay (00:16:21):

Does it still exist? 'cause if so, I gotta go. I think it <laugh> I wanna go right

Moby (00:16:25):

Now. I think it does. I like, at one point we were going to the East Coast and I Googled Bloodroot restaurant in Bridgeport, and I was like, I think it's still there. So maybe that's worth a trip. Yeah. I think that maybe the next time we're on the East Coast we have to go up to Bloodroot. But

Lindsay (00:16:38):

If I go there, there's a good chance I will never leave. So maybe that's too, too big a gamble. I

Ellie (00:16:43):

I think we need to do a field trip there.

Lindsay (00:16:44):

I think so too, very much. Because

Ellie (00:16:46):

I wanna go too and talk about the light in the darkness, the way you describe that community Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And yet here is this beautiful light. Oh God, that sounds amazing. No, I don't think I ever went there as a kid. My parents were very much of the opinion that what I was doing was absolutely insane. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And they did not wanna support it. They were like, um, okay, fine, but we're not gonna cook you special food. Okay, no problem.

Moby (00:17:07):

Can I tell you a really sweet Bloodroot story?

Lindsay (00:17:10):

Absolutely.

Moby (00:17:10):

Okay. This is so endearing. My mom got married to this very nice man named Richard, and then she died of cancer. And I stayed in touch with Richard and I went to go visit him where he lived in Connecticut and he had gone to Bloodroot to, to get dinner for us to bring it back to the house. Keep in mind, Richard was like a former football player, militant meat eater. But his way of accommodating me was to go to Bloodroot. Oh,

Lindsay (00:17:33):

That's so sweet. Richard. Richard cares lovely.

Moby (00:17:35):

Very, it was so gentle and sweet. He also tried to make me orange juice by putting entire oranges in a blender <laugh>. And I was like, well, I don't know if I can actually drink this, because that's really not how you make orange juice, but a for effort.

Lindsay (00:17:49):

His heart's in the right place. Yeah. He

Ellie (00:17:51):

Sounds like a lovely person.

Lindsay (00:17:53):

Yeah. So I'm just trying to figure out how, because I think many of us love animals, but to go from loving animals being vegetarian, having this connection to having the idea to start a place like the Gentle Barn, how, how did your journey wind up to that being even an idea that you had?

Ellie (00:18:12):

So there were two very pivotal things that happened to me early on in childhood. Number one, the first thing that I remember, uh, five, six years old in St. Louis, Missouri was, um, I was in temple with my mom and ordered to sit still and quiet, which was impossible. And finally I couldn't take it anymore and said I was gonna go to the bathroom and slipped out the back door of the temple to a field that was behind the temple. And that was my sanctuary. Mm. All the little lady bugs and the grasshoppers and the flowers. And at one point I rolled over on my back to watch the clouds in the sky. And I was awestruck because the sky was full of butterflies. Hmm. Um, that field must have been on the migratory route of the monarch butterfly. Oh my gosh. Looking back. But at the time, I didn't know. I just thought something very, uh, angelic was happening. Yeah. The sky was full of monarch butterflies and unable to do it in temple. But in that moment, I held my breath, I held my body so still and quiet that the butterflies started landing on me. Stop. And I was covered in butterflies. And it was in that moment where it wasn't just me loving nature, it was nature noticing me. It was nature participating and connecting with

Moby (00:19:24):

Me. It's, it's like a benediction, it's like a blessing. Yeah.

Ellie (00:19:26):

And I'll never forget it in that moment, I was like, I don't know what I'm gonna do with the rest of my life, but I am going to do something to protect these animals. I am part of them. They are part of me. So that was the first thing that happened. The next thing that happened when I was more like seven or eight, um, still in St. Louis, Missouri. And I had had enough by that time of the bullying in school and the cruelty to animals and feeling different. And I was like, you know what? I changed my mind. I don't wanna be here. And I actually tried to end my life at seven years old, and it was a hummingbird that flew in my face and stayed there for what felt like forever. And this feeling of calm came over me. Hmm. As if the, that hummingbird was telling me like, look, you have to stay, but it's going to be all right.

Ellie (00:20:10):

And it was again, that second opportunity where it wasn't just me being in nature and loving animals. It was those animals recognizing me, coming to me in my hour of distress, calming me down when I didn't wanna be here anymore. And I got fueled all over again. Like, I gotta protect these animals. I gotta be part of them. I have to do something for them for the rest of my life. And since that moment at seven years old, I would tell anyone that would listen that when I grew up, I was gonna have a big place full of animals and show the world how beautiful they are. And that became my mantra since seven years old. And I had no idea how to do it, but I would sit at school and draw pictures of what the Gentle Barn would look like until my desk notebooks and arms were covered in pictures of animals.

Ellie (00:20:54):

Hmm. And I would go to sleep each night fantasizing about what the Gentle Barn would feel like and look like, and all the animals I would get to love. And that's how I went to sleep every night. So since seven years old, the gentle Barn became a real place in my mind. It just took me a while to actually make it in reality, <laugh>. And while I was busy procrastinating and not knowing what the first step is to start something like that, 25 years ago I discovered a penning zoo I had never seen before. I, and I don't know, it smelled funny and it looked funny. And I ended up going in to see what they were doing. And the place was absolutely awful. The goats and sheep had toenails two inches long and trouble walking. They kept beating the ponies to keep going round and round in torturous circles with no break carrying kids.

Ellie (00:21:39):

And there was not one drop of water on the property, even though it was well over a hundred degrees. And I was just absolutely sick to my stomach. But the worst part about that petting zoo, by far, the worst part was that the place was full of people and not one of them could see the suffering in front of them. Hmm. It's like this blindness that we have in our culture, like people can't see. So I was sick to my stomach and I had to get outta there, and I was running for the door and blocking the exit was a very old and sick goat that looked me in the eyes, stopped me in my tracks and asked me for help. And I returned her gaze. And at the time I was living in a little house with a half acre backyard in the valley and I thought, well, I could bring home a goat.

Ellie (00:22:21):

And so I said, yes, I'll help you wait right here. And I went to find the owner and said, Hey, can I have that goat? And she said, no. And I said, well, can I buy her and name your price? And she said, leave me alone lady. And I said, that goat is dying. And I told her I was gonna help her, so I'm just gonna stay here till you say yes. And I stayed there for 12 days. And on the 13th day she came and found me and told me to take the goat and get the heck outta there. And I brought Mary home and she was a big white goat with giant golden eyes. And I got a mobile vet to come out and remove her tumors and trim her overgrown toenails and teach me how to massage her deformed legs so she could walk again.

Ellie (00:22:55):

And a few months later she was bouncing and galloping around my yard as happy as can be. And it was the greatest feeling I'd ever had. And I just knew that that was what I was born to do and this is what I was born to be, and I had to do more of it. So I called authorities on that place to see if they could help the animals I didn't take home. And they all said the same thing. They all said, we know about her, there's nothing we can do, just walk away. But walking away is not in my nature <laugh>. So I went back to the petting zoo and said like, if no one else is gonna help those other animals, then I'm gonna do more. And I went back to the petting zoo and I said, look, I know that you have other animals that are suffering, no questions asked. I'll take them off your hands. And she said, fine, wait right here. And she went in the back and she started dragging animals outta the back, broken bones, pneumonia, scared to death, dying. And I brought them all home and got the mobile vet out to fix them one by one. And months later I woke up in the morning, looked out my little picture window to a backyard that was now full of animals. And I said, holy cow. I just started my dream. Yeah. Hmm. And that's how we got here. <laugh>.

Moby (00:23:58):

Um, I have a question, but also I have a very specific question. I'm sitting here looking at one of the pigs wagging their tail, <laugh>. And this ties into my next question. When a pig wags its tail, is that just a sign of contentness and happiness? Or are they distributing pheromones?

Ellie (00:24:18):

Pigs are just like dogs. They wag their tails when they're happy. Okay.

Moby (00:24:22):

Um, I assumed so, but I didn't wanna project. Uh, but it leads me to the question in your book and also on your website, you talk about listening to animals. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> how humans have the ability to communicate with animals. But we just simply don't. But you do. It reminds me of Dr. Doolittle. So for example, as a little kid was like watching Dr. Doolittle, they have that song, talk to the Animals. And I was like, how is that unique? I talk to animals, everyone you can, whether you can listen to the animals. That's the more of a challenge. Like, why didn't the Dr. Dolittle song be about listening to animals rather than talking to them like anyone can yell at an animal or talk to an animal, being able to hear them in response. So when did you start listening to and communicating with animals?

Ellie (00:25:07):

Moby, I'm so glad that you asked that question. And I talk extensively about this in my new book coming out called Cow Hug Therapy: How the General Barn Animals Taught Me About Life, Death, and Everything. Lindsay

Moby (00:25:17):

Wants to talk more about Cow Hug therapy 'cause Karma and Lindsay had an amazing cow hug.

Ellie (00:25:22):

Yeah. I'll tell, I'll tell my Karma story. It's pretty epic. Oh, good. Well, cow hug therapy's my favorite topic. So yes, <laugh>, let's talk about that. But to answer your question first, and I love that you asked that question. You know, I know that you and I, um, all of us are empaths. And when we're growing up as an empath, it is excruciatingly painful because not only is the design of an empath to go through their own trauma, so we could lose ourselves to find ourselves and to bring the gifts that we've come to share with the world. But we're also aware not only of our own pain and challenges, but we're aware of everyone else's. So it is so excruciatingly painful, but once we grow up and we fully accept ourselves, and we embrace who we are, and we embrace our gifts, being an empath becomes our superpower.

Ellie (00:26:08):

And so I know you know what it's like to talk to animals because an empath, as an empath, as a child, going through your own challenges, I know that you could hear them Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And they could hear you and they were your sanctuary. Just like with me, if you look at every single solitary living being on this planet, we are all intuitive. I know that you've probably had the experience of watching a school of fish. And it's not like there's a leader and followers. They are literally all moving at the exact same time. Why? Because they're one mind, they're one organism. They're intuitively connected to each other. So they move as one being, when quote unquote prey animals wanna go down to the lake to have water, they have to be intuitive to know is it safe, is it not safe? Are there predators lurking and awaiting them?

Ellie (00:26:56):

Or is the lake available to drink? So every single animal on this planet operates intuitively. And if you look back at native cultures, aboriginal cultures, intuition was part of their rhetoric. I mean mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, they lived it, breathed it, passed it down to younger generations. The veil between physical life and the spirit world was very, very thin. And they communicated with all living beings around them. It's only in our western culture, we're now so fast-paced and high tech and busy in our phones and busy in our computers, and we don't make time to meditate and we don't make time enough to be in nature and to be connected with animals. And we're all left-brained. Right. We're all about reason and science and provability. And we've lost that intuition. And it's not that we've lost it to the point where we don't have it anymore. It's just that our culture doesn't teach it. Our religion doesn't believe in it. Our schools are all about sit down, be quiet, listen to someone else, and we drowned it out. Listen, we've drowned it out. We've been

Lindsay (00:28:00):

Forced to, I think. 'cause I know when I was younger, and I'm sure that you both experienced this too, of my moments where I was like, this animal's hurting or this person is hurting, would be shut down so fast. Yeah. And it would happen so many times over and over and over that eventually I stopped saying it out loud and eventually I stopped noticing it as much as I did. And it took a lot of work for me to get back to the point where I could climb out of all of the times I was shut down and told to not feel that way. And I know that that is a very, very common experience. Well,

Ellie (00:28:30):

I think what's remarkable about you, Lindsay, it would be so easy for you to just shut down your heart and just, you know, join in the enjoyment in animals, um, you know, hunting them or whatever. And you didn't, you stayed awake and you stayed alive and you, and you stayed immersed in what was right and what was wrong. And I think that that's extraordinary because I think a lot of, I think we are all born animal lovers and we're all born knowing what's right and wrong, but then we follow someone else's lead and we forget who we really are. And you never did that. And I, I think that's extraordinary. Um, but thanks. I like to call. Yeah. I like to call this time in history, the great awakening. You know, if you look back at history, we went through civil rights and we're still going through gay rights and we went through women's rights, but it was all more about politics and getting the laws changed to protect the innocent.

Ellie (00:29:26):

But in the Amal rights world, I mean, I would love it if it would happen, but I'm not so sure it will happen. I think it's a more, a matter of us as individuals awakening Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and taking the power into our own hands and voting with our own dollars to get big business to do what's right and stop doing all of this wrong. And so it's the time where us individuals have the most responsibility, but it's also the time in history where we as individuals get to celebrate being alive and lead the way for more humanity. And, um, it's not about learning animal communication, it's about remembering it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And it's not about learning a new skillset. It's about returning to who we really are and who we've always meant to be. And so, being vegan for me is a way for me to shine a gentle light in the world and show people that we can live harmoniously with every living being and don't have to destroy anyone. But also practicing animal communication is my way of demonstrating that we can all return to who we are and turn on our own intuition and connect with these living beings and the planet in a way that we were always designed to do.

Moby (00:30:40):

Um, wow. That's

Lindsay (00:30:40):

Beautiful. I know. And I, I also think that there is something so healing about that. I think that so much of our mental and emotional discomfort that I think we all have in many different ways comes from our disconnection with the divine, with the earth, with the, the spiritual flow of our planet. And animals are so connected to that. And when you connect with animals, you connect to that part of where that lives inside of you.

Moby (00:31:06):

Yes. And I know that we've all, we've had this experience, and it's a hard thing to talk about, but like, when I've gone to like animal save events, like going to a slaughterhouse and like giving water to pigs or seeing animals who are being mistreated. There's something I realized at one point, like they're scared of understandably, but they're confused because in the natural world, animals kill each other, animals eat each other, but they don't abuse each other. Mm. And that's whenever I've seen an animal who's been on the receiving end of abuse or is about to be slaughtered, there's just this confusion. Like they're looking at us like, what are you doing? How do, how as a species, humans, how do you think this is a good idea? Like if I watch nature documentaries of like a mountain goat being attacked by some sort of mountain cat, the goat's scared the goat's running away. But it's not confused. It's sort of like, it understands that, okay, I'm connected to the natural world. The animal is attacking me, is connected to the natural world. We're both connected. And I think that my experience is like when you see animals who are about to be killed or when they've been abused, they look at us like, oh, you're so disconnected. Yeah. Like, what happened to humans? That that connection is so broken.

Lindsay (00:32:21):

And in that disconnection comes, violence comes, depression comes, you know, this, this, this anger that you don't really know where it comes from. And I think it's your spirit saying something's wrong. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know? Yeah.

Ellie (00:32:34):

Yeah. And you know, I had a really, really profound experience once where I was driving somewhere in the Midwest, I think between our St. Louis location and our Tennessee location. And of course those highways are riddled with slaughter trucks. And it's so hard, like, do you look at them? Do you look away? Do you pray? Like, what do you do? It's so painful. And so one of the times that there was a slaughter truck that pulled up alongside us, I said, I need the courage to look them in the eye. I can't look away. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I have to look at them and have the image of their faces seared in my mind so that everything that I do is born out of bettering them and ending this insanity that we're doing. So I looked at her and she looked straight at me and I asked her permission to speak to her.

Ellie (00:33:18):

And she said yes. And I said to her, I'm so sorry this is happening. I'm so sorry that this world is so crazy you don't deserve this. And she looked right back at me and she said, don't cry for us. We're going home. Going home is always a beautiful, beautiful thing. And I said, I'm so confused. Like I've been vegetarian since I was 11 and vegan for 25 years. I don't want to eat meat. I don't wanna exploit animals. I'm trying to teach other people how to do that. And you're telling me now it's okay. And she said, don't cry for us that are going home. The work that you're doing is for the people that are capable in the slaughterhouses to end a life. For the people in dairies willing to take a newborn baby away from a mom, for the people that are disconnected from their hearts, broken from their own love, don't know who they are, and can't see the beauty and angels in front of them. That's the work that you have to do on this planet. And it rocked my world. And I'll never forget that because it's true. The work that we're doing on this planet is to awaken the people that can't see, can't hear, can't love, can't feel.

Moby (00:34:23):

Yeah. And there's one of the most baffling aspects of being an animal rights activist is the fact that everyone, everyone agrees with us. Every, like I'd say 99% of the people on the planet, if you sit them down and say like, okay, do you like animals? They're like, yeah, I like animals. Um, would you ever hurt an animal? Absolutely not. What do you think about animal suffering? Do you wanna see images of animal suffering? They're like, no, I could never look at images of animal suffering. And then the follow-up question, the logical follow-up question is like, okay, well I feel the same way and as a result, I don't contribute to the suffering and death of animals. And at that point they punch you in the face and say, leave me alone. Stop trying to like impose your values on me. I'm like, but yeah, you already agree with us. Yeah. That's what's so like, the fact that 99% of the people on the planet aren't willing to take that next step. Like we don't have to convince them to agree with us. They already do. Yeah. No one wants to hurt animals. No one wants to be involved in animal suffering. No one can look at footage of animals being suffered, but day in, day out, they're all contributing to it. And I just, I feel like I don't know how many synapses I've lost trying to wrap my head around that fact.

Ellie (00:35:32):

No, it's true. It's very baffling. I mean, it's that cognitive dissonance where they agree with everything except for they still wanna put that animal in their mouth. And that's why, you know, I call this period in history the great awakening because we have to awaken to love. We have to be inconvenienced, we have to make changes. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, we have to vote with our dollars and we have to stop making the exception. There's no fine print to kindness. There's no, oh, I love animals. I wanna protect animals. I don't wanna see animals' heart, but the small fine print is, but I'm still going to eat them. Yeah. There's no small print. It's, come on, let's wake up. And it's never ever been easier. Oh my God. There's like vegan food and fast food restaurants. There's vegan on the menu in all restaurants. It's a household word. Now

Moby (00:36:17):

You remind me like, I think one of the first times I came up here was maybe it was a Saturday. It was, it was a day when you had a long line of people waiting to get in.

Lindsay (00:36:25):

That was also the first time I came was a day where it was like a regular tour day. Yeah. I

Ellie (00:36:29):

Think it was a Sunday. Right. Maybe it

Lindsay (00:36:30):

Must was

Ellie (00:36:31):

The public. Yeah.

Moby (00:36:32):

And there were two remarkable things that I experienced involving you. One was, and I'd love to talk about like your welcome speech. 'cause your welcome speech was so skillful. I was like, I wanted to stand up and like cheer afterwards. Thank you. But the other was, I was standing next to the people waiting in line and one guy was making bacon jokes. And I wanted to go, you know, me being egregiously unevolved, I wanted to go over and scream at him. And you went over and you used like, what is it, Aikido, the one where you used people's energy against themselves, against them to, like, you went over and talked to him. And I don't remember exactly what you said, but it was so much more effective than yelling. Like you went over and said like, oh, I'm sorry that you see animals that way. When I see an animal, I see gentleness and vulnerability. And he was so chastened,

Lindsay (00:37:23):

You mind tricked this guy. I was there. I think we must have come together that day because I remember this happening too. And I felt such anger at this man. I was like, why? Why would you come here? And you did. You said something like, okay, that's how you see animals. That's okay. That may, that may be how you see animals, but this is how I see them. And you said something so beautiful, and obviously this was years ago. I cannot remember what it was. And you probably don't remember either. 'cause this was, this was years and years and years ago. But it was so beautiful. And that was before we even came into the space. But then, yes, the speech that you give in that tiny amphitheater type area is so, was so beautiful, so meaningful. But before we hear that, I would love to go back to your petting zoo and talk about how you, how do you go from rescued, petting zoo animals in your backyard to this kind of multi-location? Uh, beloved place that we know now?

Ellie (00:38:19):

Well, very slowly <laugh> people see us now and go, oh my God, I don't know how I'd ever do that. And I'm like, well, we didn't start this way. Yeah. Uh, it started in the half acre backyard. And then Jay came in as a volunteer and got more and more involved. At first he was just helping out on Fridays, clean the barnyard. And then he started going to six different whole foods and getting produce for the animals that we would chop up together and feed to the animals. Then he started walking them. 'cause we had, I had eight dogs at the time. So then he started helping me walk the dogs and walk the horses. Um, and then I realized his corporate background. So he helped me in the office. And then he got a seat on the board. And then before I knew it, we had joined.

Ellie (00:38:56):

We had fallen in love a year later and joined forces to expand the mission of the Gentle Barn. So we were at that half acre backyard. And at first it was wonderful. The neighborhood embraced us and they supported us. But very soon we were kind of bursting at the seams. And, you know, new neighbors moved in and started complaining. And we got to a pivotal place where it was like either shut down or move, but in order to continue the Gentle Barn, we can't stay in the half acre backyard anymore. And we went through a whole rollercoaster of emotions. Do we shut down? Do we give up? Do we keep going? Where do we move? And we finally got a realtor that took us basically in a 50 mile radius. We looked in Ojai, we looked in shadow hills, we looked in everywhere that was zoned for farm animals. And most of the places were either great house but not livable conditions for the animals or great barns and pastures, but condemnable houses. But we, and then we finally found this place, which actually where this

Moby (00:39:52):

Place right here, this house.

Ellie (00:39:52):

Yeah. Right where we are in Santa Clarita, California. When we came to see this place with the realtor near to giving up, 'cause we had been looking for five months and we were like, oh, forget it. But the realtor was like, I have one more place to show you. We came here and the house was here and nothing else was here. It was just weeds.

Moby (00:40:10):

Hmm. This was a field,

Ellie (00:40:11):

It was a field of weeds. Wow. And it was interesting because when I look back at that moment, I don't know why I thought this could be a Gentle Barn. All there was was a house. Why did we think this would be viable? But for some reason, as we were walking through the fields, all of a sudden I could see a smaller animal barnyard. I could see a horse barn, I could see the cow pasture. And I, it was like taking shape. And so by the time we got to the top of the hill, I looked at the realtor and said, we'll, take it. And the realtor was like, you haven't even seen the house yet. And I'm like, okay, fine. Let's go see the house. <laugh>. So we went in the house and it was livable and we said, we'll take it.

Moby (00:40:45):

And one thing when I first came up here that really impressed me about you and the criteria for Gentle Barn is your idea of building sanctuaries close to population centers. Yeah. Because as we know, there's some wonderful, well-intentioned sanctuaries that are so far away from people. No one ever gets to visit. You were the first sanctuary owner that I ever heard. Voice it. Can you talk about your criteria for choosing sanctuary locations?

Ellie (00:41:13):

When I was seven years old, my rant was when I grew up, I'm gonna have a big place full of animals and show the world how beautiful they are. So I can't do that if we're in the middle of nowhere. The original design at seven years old was, it's the people that I want to affect. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, yes. We're gonna save animals, we're gonna share their stories, we're gonna give them the best lives they could possibly imagine. But the key component to my service was we have to get in front of people. We have to show more people that chicken and rice is a beautiful living angel. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> that wants to cuddle in your arms. And that bacon, our pigs with a 3000 word vocabulary wagging their tails. Yeah. And just as affectionate as dogs, that cows, once they learn to trust you, will bring you into the fold of their family and nurture you and heal you in ways that talk therapy cannot. I was aware of that at seven years old. And so it was always this key component that we have to be within an hour's drive of the biggest city in each state. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, because we have to get in front of as many people as we possibly can.

Moby (00:42:16):

Yeah. I love that aspect of it, because I'm sure you hear these stories all the time. Like people incredibly well intentioned, idealistic people who save up their money to open a sanctuary and then immediately realized just how hard it is running a sanctuary. And they're in the middle of nowhere. Yeah. So yeah, you were the, like I said, you were the first person who really clarified that for me. That like the, the, the utility of a sanctuary is of course, saving animals and engaging with the community, but more is being able to reach as many people as possible to show them the reality of living animals. You know, not animals in a supermarket, not animals on tv, not animals on social media as much as I love animals on social media, on tv. But that experience of looking an animal in the eye as a three dimensional living being nothing is more powerful than that.

Ellie (00:43:11):

Listen, I mean, we're slaughtering animals by the billions, and there is that cognitive dissonance running rampant on our planet where people just don't understand what they're doing or don't wanna change. And so saving animals is not enough. And don't get me wrong, anyone that is saving animals, anyone that's running a sanctuary, they're a friend of mine. They're in the trenches with us. And every life is deserving Yeah. Of refuge. They're,

Moby (00:43:35):

They're on the side of the angels.

Ellie (00:43:36):

However, we could literally buy up the entire America. And there still would not be enough room to save as many animals as we need to save. The only way this is ever going to change is if we change the hearts of humans. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And the only way we're gonna change the hearts of humans is if they have an interaction with an animal. Look in their eyes, hear their stories of resilience, see that there's no difference between a dog and a pig and a cow and a chicken and a Turkey, and make their own changes. That's the only way we're ever going to change. And, and so sanctuary has to be near people. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And the other thing, the other reason is that with the rising divorce rate, suicide rate, drug rate, it's not just animals that need the sanctuary. Yeah. It's human beings. People need sanctuary. They need the stillness and the quiet. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, they need the connection to nature and animals to be reminded of who they really are. Yes. They need it as badly as the animals do.

Lindsay (00:44:32):

And to like, see, see innocence, see authenticity, see gentleness in these creatures. Which brings me to my next question. Oh,

Moby (00:44:41):

Can I say one thing about that is

Lindsay (00:44:42):

Oh heck yeah. You can.

Moby (00:44:44):

Is every time I come here, and I've been here now many times, this always amazes me. 'cause everyone gets along. We have all these different animals. And I'm sitting here right now and I see turkeys and I see goats, and I see sheeps, and I see alpacas, and I see people and I see ew. Big, big pigs. And I see pigs. I see all the, and, and every time I've come here, everyone's getting along. To be fair, one time when those pigs were babies, I came up here and they were getting along, but they were also fantastic lunatics. <laugh>. Like, I have this wonderful footage on my old phone of them, like playing with everything, playing with balls and running over and attacking my feet and then going attacking each other, but in the most joyful, happy way. It's just always inspires me like the peace and the gentleness of this enclosure. So, Lindsay, sorry, I was, I wanna mention that

Ellie (00:45:33):

That's why I say people need sanctuary too, because this is holding the space and the example of how we all could live together like this. We don't have to put each other down. We don't have to compete, we don't have to war, we don't have to have enemy consciousness. We can live like these animals do. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> in peace and harmony. Get along and understand each other, even though our words might be different. This is the example for this planet. Yeah.

Lindsay (00:46:02):

Yeah. So that's what I wanna talk about is the human part of this. There are so many petting zoos in the world. There are so many zoos or whatever in the world, these places where you can quote unquote interact with animals or, or view them in some habitat. And we all grow up with those. SeaWorld exists, but they don't change the way that people view animals or the way that people want to live their lives in a way that might protect animals. I want to know more about how you have managed to bridge that gap between giving people animal experiences and giving people animal connections that might change the way they live their lives once they leave here.

Ellie (00:46:47):

So I think zoos and petting zoos are actually very harmful. And I heard you say that they don't change the way people see animals, but actually they do. But in a negative way, the minute an animal is there for profit or they're on display, you are teaching future generations to objectify animals. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And look where we are. We're objectifying animals all over the place because of what we're learning in zoos.

Lindsay (00:47:10):

That they're for consumption. Yeah. They're for us to look at. They're, they're gonna perform for us. They're going to please us.

Ellie (00:47:16):

Exactly. And the foundation of the Gentle Barn and our visitors is built on that. Every interaction is up to the animal and it's about the animal. And the animal needs to come first. It's on our website. It's on the tickets that people get for open to the public Sundays, it's on the bookings of people that come for private tours or field trips. We state that this is a working sanctuary. This is where the animals live, and everything that happens happens around the animals. Some of the animals will want their bellies rubbed or their back scratched or to be held, and other animals will say, no thank you. And they will be respected on open to pup. Sundays, every single animal has their own volunteer to let people know if they do wanna be pet or they don't wanna be pet or how they wanna be pet.

Ellie (00:48:01):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And that's why there's an amphitheater presentation before people are even allowed into the animal enclosures to give them that reverence and understanding of what we do and why we do it, so that they're not walking around thinking that these animals are here to please them. The other thing that when I'm training my volunteers and my tour guides and my staff, I tell them that telling a person that an animal doesn't wanna be pet is more important than allowing someone to pet an animal. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Because it's in those moments where we tell someone, I'm sorry, that animal's walking away. They're saying, no thank you, or I'm sorry, that animal it doesn't wanna be interacted with right now. It's in those moments of telling a visitor no, that the greatest lessons are learned because these animals are not here for us. They're here for their own purposes and their own reasons. As we all are. As we all are. And just like we can't objectify each other and we can't impose ourselves on each other. We can't do that to animals. But people

Lindsay (00:48:58):

Do impose themselves on each other. And I think there's a lesson in that too, of like, oh, if this animal can ask for respect, maybe I can say, the weird person that comes up to me is like, gimme a hug. I don't have to do that for my own safety. I can say, you know what I mean?

Moby (00:49:13):

Well, I had a, a thought a while ago, a friend of ours was at a songwriting camp and she was so upset because this older guy had come over and taken her guitar and forced her to listen to him play. Oh. And Julie, we got on the phone afterwards and she was really shaken by this, but she was also like, she was like, why am I so upset? Like all he did was take my guitar. And I suddenly had this realization of a very broad definition of violence. Yeah. Which might be self-evident to you guys, but violence is simply one individual imposing their will on another individual. Yeah. And I was like, Julie, this might have been at two in the afternoon in a hotel hallway with a bunch of people around, but it was an act of violence. It was like he imposed his will on you against, without your, without your consent. And that's my very broad understanding of violence. Yeah. You know, like someone who like forces themselves on an animal just to pet the animal. Like you're imposing your will as opposed to respecting the animal's innate ability to have its own will and express it however it wants. That is also, also, I'm so distracted. 'cause we are <laugh> and I know podcasts,

Ellie (00:50:20):

we're being Heckled <laugh>

Moby (00:50:21):

There, there's this wonderful gaggle of turkeys behind us. I mean, spending time at sanctuaries, one of the biggest realizations I've had is how remarkable turkeys are. Yeah. Like I had never spent time with turkeys. And I think I went to Woodstock Farm Animal Sanctuary and that was the first time I met a Turkey. And I was like, they're special. Yeah. And one of them Stellar who Lindsay and Bagel and I met as a baby, thank you very much, who's now hanging out with his mom. And they're just the most wonderful, curious, smart, gentle creatures.

Lindsay (00:50:54):

Fun fact about these turkeys behind us, which I just learned, and you obviously know this very well 'cause you did it, but these white turkeys, they were gonna be Thanksgiving turkeys this year

Moby (00:51:04):

And now their lives.

Lindsay (00:51:05):

And they were saved this very year. And they're only six months old these

Moby (00:51:08):

Turkeys. And they're just gentle, curious, smart, wonderful creatures. So high turkeys, they're

Lindsay (00:51:14):

Amazing. Yeah. They're so lovely. So anyway, I Sorry

Moby (00:51:16):

To interrupt with that, but I'm just No,

Lindsay (00:51:17):

But that No, but I love these turkeys very, very much. They're very sweet.

Moby (00:51:21):

Yeah. And I came up here with you and bagel as well to film a Thanksgiving a few

Lindsay (00:51:26):

Years ago. Yeah.

Moby (00:51:26):

Yeah. And I can't remember which Turkey, but I got to cuddle, which I'd ne I'd met turkeys, but I'd never actually cuddled a Turkey. Brave

Lindsay (00:51:33):

Was Sun does Brave cuddle?

Ellie (00:51:35):

No, it was Sun. Okay. It sort of cuddle Turkey here at the Gen farm with Sun

Moby (00:51:38):

And Wow. What a And you're

Ellie (00:51:39):

Playing guitar to her. Yeah. And she cuddled with you.

Moby (00:51:41):

And what a profound experience, you know. Yeah.

Lindsay (00:51:44):

So I love this sense of when people come in here, they are encouraged and taught how to listen and say, am I imposing my will? And what is your will in this kind of unspoken way? A lot of people aren't taught to gauge another person's will and to the concept of consent. And even people that aren't surrounded by farm animals or animals meant for animal agriculture still have animals around them. They may have a pet or something, but it also teaches them to teach any animal or any person. I think with that sense of you are allowed to have your boundaries. And because I, because you won't allow me to, to impose my will on you isn't an attack on me. It's you respecting yourself. I think there's, it's so valuable, but it also teaches people that these are animals who want to live their own lives. And I think people don't think of animals meant for food as animals that have interests and respect their, their own space and, and want different things. And people think of these animals as these mindless objects that we can do whatever we want to. And the space allows them to, to learn something

Moby (00:52:51):

Different. And that is the root of so much violence and horror when you, when you depersonalize. 'cause I think a person can be a human or an animal, but that objectification and depersonalization, whether it's to a human being, whether it's to a gender, whether it's to an ethnicity, whether it's to an animal, because that's, that justifies everything. And that's how ostensibly good people can commit acts of atrocity because they've depersonalized the other. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>

Lindsay (00:53:18):

Like when people call a group of humans animals, I'm like, I think you're trying to say something negative right now. Yeah. <laugh>. But it's actually probably much kinder than

Moby (00:53:26):

What you, so we don't want to take up too much of your time, but I do want to talk about cow hugs. Lindsay, I know you had your profound experience with Karma. And so I guess my question is, when did you first become aware of the fact that cow hug therapy was such a special, remarkable thing for so many people?

Ellie (00:53:46):

So in 2000, in the first year of opening the Gentle Barn, I discovered this miniature cow that was gonna be sent to slaughter 'cause she couldn't get pregnant and earn her keep. And I became obsessed with getting her. And I actually walked around my neighborhood knocking on doors, asking my neighbors to contribute so that we could transport her down to the Gentle Barn, which we did. We ended up saving her life. And her name was Buddha and she was very special from the get go. She never ran away from people. She actually like walked into the group of people and laid down so people could hug her. She was very, very special. And, um, then, and still now, before I go to bed at night, I go and check the barnyard and I make sure that everybody is safely on their roosts. And everyone is, is healthy and happy before I go to bed.

Ellie (00:54:31):

And so one evening on a bedtime check, I went out to the barnyard and I made sure everybody was fine. And the last animal that I said goodnight to was my cow Buddha. And I kind of passed by her and gave her like a nice little pat and kiss on her head and kept going. And there was something about the way that she looked at me like she wasn't, she needed more. So I stopped and I came back to her and she kind of said, sit for a minute. And I said, okay, that would be nice, <laugh>. So I sat next to her and I leaned against her shoulder. And then the most surprising thing happened that changed the course of my life and the history of the Gentle Barn. She wrapped her neck around me and held me. And I was so touched by this unexpected display of affection that I burst into tears and didn't even know how much stress and tension I was even holding in my body from the stress of opening the general barn and trying to bring in money and trying to roll out our programs.

Ellie (00:55:23):

And I found myself just weeping uncontrollably onto her shoulder. And she held me the whole entire time. And when I was done, I stayed in that embrace. And that embrace became a nightly ritual. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> where no matter what went on that day or what tension I was holding in my body, I had to have one of those hugs to kind of wash away the day, wipe me clean, allow me to sleep peacefully and be recharged for the next day. And weeks later, I was thinking, you know, I've been in all kinds of therapy right. Since I was a kid. Right. Talk therapy and experiential therapy and all this stuff. And, you know, it was wonderful. But those hugs did something for me that therapy just could not get close to. And I remember thinking in one of those embraces, if these hugs are doing what they're doing for me, there are other people that are hurting even worse than me that need these hugs.

Ellie (00:56:15):

And so I went in the house and I opened the phone book and I started calling drug and alcohol rehab centers, probation camps, foster agencies, domestic violence shelters, homeless shelters, inner city schools, and saying, look, I have animals that have gone through exactly what your clients have gone through, and they have healing to give, you know, you should come out. And they did. And so these agencies started bringing their clients, and I would start with a presentation explaining what the general barn is, and then asking the people about them, like what word describes who they are and what is their dream? Because I, I wanted to let them know that I was interested in who they are as well. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But then as soon as we were done talking, the first thing we ever did was go to Hug Buddha. And it was like watching an extraordinary miracle take place every single time where these teenagers or young adults with their hardened faces and their arms folded defensively across their chests and their eyes cast down on the ground, tough and hardened by what they had been through in life, bring them over to Buddha and they would rest their faces down on Buddha shoulder, close their eyes, and their faces would literally melt in front of me into kids, and they would be cracked wide open and vulnerable and humble.

Ellie (00:57:27):

And the rest of the time they were on the ground holding pigs and holding chickens and kissing donkeys and loving the animals. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> completely unabashedly, because Buddha would just open them wide up. And over the course of her life, she gave 300,000 hugs. Wow. Wow. Um, she opened the most hardened, most defensive, most closed off, shut down person. Uh, she worked with prisoners and people out of jails. She was extraordinary. And it was such an honor and a privilege to do that work with her. She did every single open Sunday, every single tour with me. So that was how Cow Hug Therapy was born, is through Buddha. And up until the pandemic, we worked through agencies. I mean, of course people can come for field trip and open to the public Sundays and cow Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> Cow Huging was a very vital part of what we did.

Ellie (00:58:17):

But therapeutically, we were working with people in agencies, then the pandemic hit and we shut down. And during the pandemic, we were contacted by a social worker and a case worker for a teenage girl who was suicidal, isolated, extremely depressed, wasn't doing well in foster care. And the woman said, I know that you're shut down, but this young lady is in real crisis and we were wondering if you perhaps would consider opening, and I would much rather get covid than say no to this opportunity. And I said, heck yeah. And so this teen and her caseworkers came every single week for God, I don't know, eight months. And then re-enrolled for the second year once we had opened after Covid. And it breathed the life into her. Hmm. Those cow hugs, the piggies and their waggly tails cuddling the turkeys like me loving animals, was the best part of this girl.

Ellie (00:59:17):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And she wasn't able to share it with other people. 'cause you know, the other foster kids teased her and the foster homes were like inconvenienced by her love of animals. But she came to the gentleman and she was able to share that beautiful part of herself. And the more she shared, the more she opened up, and the more she talked about real life things and what she was going through and what her childhood was like. And she got to be witnessed and connected with me, but also the animals. And it was, it was an amazing experience. And so when we reopened after the pandemic, because of seeing how much cow hug therapy did for this girl, and then of course everyone was hurting around the world after cow hug therapy. It wasn't just people in agencies. I said, we gotta deliver cow hug therapy to the world. And so we offered it not just to people and agencies, but to any individual that was hurting, stressed out, depressed, anxious, suicidal, uh, terminally ill, anybody going through anything hard, they could come to the general barn and for an hour be in the private audience of the cows and get that nurturing and get that healing. And it's been extraordinary to watch how valuable it's been to people that needed it.

Lindsay (01:00:23):

I don't know if I would believe you if it hadn't happened to me, <laugh>, because you think it's a count. They're magical, they're beautiful, they're majestic. But what's a hug gonna do? Let me tell you, <laugh> it, I was, I was hurt in, I was going through this awful heartbreak. I was the canny, can't sleep, just not doing great. And we came here, I don't know if you remember this, you and Jay were here. We were doing something, a, a, a Turkey, I think Moby was playing guitar for the turkeys. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And then we went over to just go say hi to the cows. And people had been in the cow barn doing, like, meditating with the cows during their nap time or something, which I was like, well, that's the coolest thing I've ever heard. <laugh>. And Moby had mentioned like, oh, well, Lindsay's going through it.

Lindsay (01:01:13):

And I was like, Mo, stop and <laugh>. And Jay was like, oh, really? Because if so, you shouldn't, you should sit and talk to Karma for a minute. And I was like, okay, <laugh>. And so I sat with Karma and I hugged her and I bagel with me and bagel and I just kind of like sat with Karma for a minute, and I just hugged her and like feeling her like big breaths and her like big heartbeat in there. And I just like, suddenly was like, am I, am I feeling better? What's happening? And by the time I got up, which I probably was there for like 10 minutes, maybe less, I got up and I was like, like I could take a deeper breath. Something happened while I was hugging that Cow Karma. And it, it really actually shifted. It was pain that I was experiencing. And I got up and it was dulled to a level that nothing else had done. Therapy, meditation, whatever. Fried food, lots of fried food, probably like a natural red wine. Um, nothing did what that cow did. So I can say firsthand, it really does something. It really shifts. Yeah. Something, something around, maybe it's because they're so big and it's like suddenly you're like in the womb again or something. I don't know. But it it does, it does something.

Ellie (01:02:23):

So I have spent a really long time trying to figure out why it's so healing to be hugged by a cow <laugh>. Like, I mean, all animals are great, right? Horses are great and dogs and cats are great. Like, but what is it about cow hug therapy? And I've come up with a lot of theories, but this is my favorite one. When we're infants and we're being held by our caregiver, our face is on their chest. We can hear their heartbeat. We rise and fall with their breathing. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And we feel safe and nurtured in a giant protective frame. And we feel very, very vulnerable. Right. Because we're not in charge. We're completely surrendered. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> to their, they're in charge. And I think once we grow up, nothing mimics that because we love our dogs, we love our cats, we love our horses, but we're ultimately in a leadership position with them.

Ellie (01:03:13):

Like we're, we're holding the cat, we're holding the dog. We're kind of still in an authority position, but with cows, they outweigh us by thousands of pounds. So you can't teach them to do it. You can't train them to do it. You can't make them do anything. But these matriarchs in the herd, they are so wise and their energy is so remarkable, and they're so grounded and so centered that when they choose to nurture us like family, we become that infant again. Where we can rest our faces on their sides. We can hear their heartbeat, we can rise and fall with their breathing. And we feel small, vulnerable, and helpless in a giant protective frame. And it's like, it takes us back to infancy where anything is possible and where healing starts. Mm-Hmm.

Lindsay (01:04:00):

<affirmative>. Yeah. That makes so much sense. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I really felt that it's this kind of, yeah, it's that surrender feeling of this powerful thing, taking time and space and letting you just exist with it and that safety. Yeah. It's a, it's a beautiful, beautiful thing. And such a, a wonderful offering.

Moby (01:04:18):

So sort of in that same vein, one thing I wanted to ask you about, and if this is too personal, please say, Hey, that's too personal. And like, throw a rock at me or something, <laugh>. But I don't know anything about your spiritual practice. It's apart from connecting with animals and being rescuing animals and letting people have experiences like Lindsay had with Karma. But do you have a a spiritual practice as well? And are there spiritual traditions you've been inspired by?

Ellie (01:04:51):

I'm not gonna throw a rock at you, <laugh>. Okay.

Moby (01:04:53):

You can if you want. Lots of people do. It's fine. It

Lindsay (01:04:55):

Would be really funny

Ellie (01:04:55):

If you did though.

Moby (01:04:56):

No, I'm not gonna do that. I'm, I'm, you know, little

Lindsay (01:04:59):

Rock. It

Moby (01:04:59):

Wouldn't kill him. Friends is fine. <laugh>

Ellie (01:05:02):

No, and like I told you in the beginning, I'm an open book. You can ask me anything. So I was raised orthodox Jewish by people who really believed in it. Like it fed their soul. It made them whole. And for some reason, between them and I, something was lost in the translation. So growing up it was, I don't know, I don't know why my parents had so much spirituality and so much love for religion and God and belief and faith, but I just never got it. For me, it was restrictive. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. It was alienating religion kind of makes you hate people that are not of that religion. I just, it didn't, I didn't get it. So there were parts of the religion that I really like. Like sitting Shiva in the Jewish religion is the most beautiful thing in the whole wide world. Do, do you know what that is?

Ellie (01:05:55):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Um, when someone passes away and you just sit for seven days and allow people to come and feed you and take care of you and tell stories of your lost loved one. Like, I just think that's the coolest thing in the, in the world. And I practiced that when my loved ones pass away, including animals. Um, but I remember being in school and I went to an orthodox school and I remember one day being in this like, really long lecture and they said something like, if a house is on fire on the Sabbath and there's animals inside the house, you can't go and save them. And I'm like, check, please. I'm done. You lost me. And I literally remembered that moment going, you completely lost me. Like, I wasn't all the way in before, but you literally, for real. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> a hundred percent just lost me.

Ellie (01:06:37):

And I was out. I didn't, I, that doesn't make any sense. I remember walking to temple once when I was a kid and there was an injured pigeon that had been hit by a car. And I immediately picked her up and was like, I, I gotta walk her to the vet, you know? And my parents were like, you know, put her down. She's dirty. We gotta get to temple. And I'm like, we go to Temple to learn how to be good people. And the opportunity to be a good person is in my hands right now, and I'm going to take her to the vet. So organized religion, not so much. My religion is, and I know this is gonna sound corny, but it's love, it's connection. It's helping those around me. It's saying yes to someone that needs help. It's going outta my way to help somebody.

Ellie (01:07:21):

It's putting others first and not this egocentric need for domination and power. It's having my heart wide open and being intuitive and hearing the cries for help, whether they're in front of me or across the planet. I can still hear them and feel them. And I wanna dedicate my days to bettering those around me. Bettering myself. I'm always on a quest to be more evolved. And meditation is a really big part of that. Um, I have a daily meditation practice. Um, my rule for myself is I do not leave my bedroom without meditating. Hmm. And there are days where chaos is ensuing, and maybe I can only do it for five minutes, but I do not leave my room without meditation. And what meditation does for me is it connects me to, and again, this is gonna sound corny, but it connects me to my higher self.

Ellie (01:08:10):

It connects me to who I really am. Listen, there is a soul in each of us that was somewhere before we found this form. And there's a soul that is going to exist when we're done with these bodies. So there's a truth about ourselves that is way bigger than I am female or male. I am straight or. I am, you know, I have kids or I'm single. Like all of those human distracting details. There is, there is a truth about each and every single one of us, human and non-human that is greater than all of those details. And I think meditation allows me to tap into that and connect with that and be reminded of that so that I can bring a piece of that to the experiences and interactions and conversations that I have during my day. So that's my religion.

Moby (01:09:00):

Can you say what the meditation practice is? Or do you mix it up?

Ellie (01:09:04):

I mix it up. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, depending on my need for each moment. Sometimes just listening to either chance or meditation. Music takes me where I need to go. Other time I just focus on my breath. Other times, um, I like to take myself through different guided meditations that I use. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So yeah, I mix it up. What about you? You have a meditation practice,

Moby (01:09:22):

Don't you? Same thing, whatever works. Yeah. You know, sometimes it's chanting, sometimes it's following the breath. Sometimes it's visualization. Sometimes it's tm, sometimes it's zen. Something that's basically same way I listen to music. Sometimes it's Led Zeppelin. Sometimes it's Bach, sometimes it's Pantera. Sometimes it's Donna Summer.. Sometimes it's Beyonce. Sometimes it's Black Flag. So same thing with food. Sometimes it's Indian vegan food. Sometimes it's Italian vegan food. Like the idea of saying, okay, I'm only going to eat Italian vegan food for the rest of my life seems arbitrary and restrictive as great as Italian vegan food is. But when you were talking about walking to temple and seeing the wounded pigeon, you reminded me of one of my favorite Sufi quotes. And I'm not Sufi, I love the poems and some of the ideas, but I'm paraphrasing. I think it was Kabir, maybe Hafiz. And again, I'm really paraphrasing, said, okay, you can put on old fancy clothes, you can dye your clothes, orange or black.

Moby (01:10:25):

You can cut your hair a certain way. You can go sit in a big stone house and you can, you know, kneel on the stone floor until your knees bleed. The whole time you're doing that, God's outside and God is lonely waiting for you. It is fascinating, this idea that so much worship, so much religion ignores divine creation. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> like, when you take a step back, you're like, okay. Not, not to malign spiritual traditions, but going into a big stone place to worship the divine while ignoring nature. Yeah. While ignoring animals. Like, it's like worshiping music without listening to music. So you've been so generous. I mean, obviously your whole life is generosity and service, but like, you know, letting us come here and set up. And Lindsay, Ellie, is there anything we want to

Lindsay (01:11:17):

End with? I just, I have one question that I feel like I need to know the answer to, which is, you're up against a lot here running this place. And also just the general sense of, of knowing what is right and knowing that the world is not there yet. And it gets depressing, it gets scary. I know that I have moments of hopelessness, like, what's it all, what do I do? And I feel hopeless at times. If you feel that way, what do you say to yourself? What keeps you going? How do you continue to push? 'cause you're pushing a massive boulder up a very steep hill every day, keeping this place afloat and keeping everyone happy. And I mean, there's just a lot going on. Those goats, I think are hugging <laugh>. Um, it was very sweet. Sorry. I was like watching. Anyway, um, what do you, what keeps you moving? What gives you the strength to wake up and do it every single day?

Ellie (01:12:12):

So I write about this extensively in my new book coming out, Cow Hug Therapy, because I think it's a really good question. And I think so many of us are grappling with trying to find that answer. No

Lindsay (01:12:22):

Matter what your activism is, I think there, the hopelessness happens.

Ellie (01:12:26):

Oh yeah. So in the first year of the Gentle Barn, it was my dream since I was seven. And when I finally started the Gentle Barn, I thought that it was gonna be cupcakes, rainbows, and unicorns. <laugh>, right? There were gonna be harps and violins playing every single day. And it was gonna be like this. Ha, you know, I'm living my dream. And it was, and it was really hard, right? I'm saving animals from the most unimaginable story. And just when I think I heard the worst story, the next one is even worse. And seeing what human beings are capable of, right? So there was a moment in that first year where I'm like, I'm done. I quit. I am not strong enough for this. I made a mistake, I was mistaken, I'm done. And then of course, I fought with myself for the next month.

Ellie (01:13:11):

Like, I quit. No, you don't. I'm not strong enough. Yes you are. I can't do this. Yes you can. Right? Finally, at the end of the month going, okay, fine, you're right. There's nothing else that I could even imagine myself doing. This is obviously why I'm here. Okay. So then how am I gonna survive this? Um, it's gonna eat me alive. So I came up with five things to help preserve my sanity. The first is share my message gently. So much of our us animal activists, I mean, we just wanna go through the streets and shake people and slap people and wake them up and, right. Yeah. But we get ourselves in a state of like, we are so angry all the time. And number one, that's not effective. And number two, who can live like that long term? It's too painful. So I vowed that I was gonna share my message gently.

Ellie (01:13:55):

I was gonna find a way that to, to your point about that visitor that said something about bacon. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And this is what we teach our volunteers. Every statement, no matter how horrific is really a question. Oh, that's a lot of bacon. It sure is. Do you know why they're genetically engineered to grow bigger than they're supposed to? Wild pigs are only 250 pounds, and this pig is a thousand pounds. They're not supposed to be this big. Right? So every comment, no matter how seemingly nasty is an opportunity to teach, and really a question that needs to be answered. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So share my message gently. Find a way to show people who these animals are through my eyes, and find a way to live in peace so that I'm not angry all the time. Yeah. Sec. So the second thing that I vowed to, to take on was once I share my message gently to lose attachment to the outcome, right?

Ellie (01:14:46):

Because of course, the outcome that I want is every single person that comes to the general barn and loves these animals and hears the presentation and understands what's going on, we'll leave vegan. But everyone's on their own journey. Everyone's evolving at their own pace. Some people turn on a dime like I did. Some people, it's a process. So I need to lose attachment to the outcome, and I need to bless them on their way knowing that their journey is their business. The third thing that I adopted was setting better boundaries for myself. Knowing the things that empower me, and knowing the things that take me down and protecting my very sensitive soul so that I'm not taken down. I have big job to do. Yeah. I have a lot of, uh, lives that are depending on me. I can't afford for a conversation or a video or, or a social media post to put me in a fetal position for the next three weeks.

Ellie (01:15:35):

I have to stay strong and I have to stay hopeful. So I created boundaries on what content I watch, what movies I watch. I stopped watching the news. I haven't watched the news in 20 years. Wow. The people that I asso associate myself with, they have to be uplifting and hopeful and inspiring, or I'm not gonna do it. The fourth thing that I came up with, and this might be one of the most important, is to allow myself to celebrate the victories. You know, those of us that are so incredibly painfully aware of the problem, it's hard when a new vegan restaurant opens up or a new celebrity goes vegan or a new vegan product is on the market. You know, it's hard to really celebrate that moment because we're looking at how far we still have yet to go. But I wanted to give myself permission to really celebrate those victories.

Ellie (01:16:20):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, no matter how small, because listen, yeah. The problem is always gonna be there. But we need to celebrate. We need to feel that hope in that moment. Like, yes, there's another vegan bacon made outta mushroom, or there's a new vegan politician. Yes. We're getting there. We have to feel like we're getting there because it, if you look at any movement throughout the history of the world, no movement happened in a day. No progress happened quickly. It happens over time. So within that moment, within that movement, there is still progress and we have to be able to celebrate. And then the fifth, which is something that I practice on a daily, when I was a kid, I visualized what the Gentle Barn would look like, taste like, smell like, and and feel like. And eventually I manifested the Gentle Barn. Right? So now we're all trying to manifest a peaceful world for all creatures.

Ellie (01:17:12):

So the fifth thing is, I dedicated myself to spending time in the world that I wanna create every single day. So apart from my regular meditations, every day I set aside five minutes and I very specifically and intentionally set my alarm for five minutes. Uh, because, you know, if it goes for 30 minutes, then the next day I'm gonna be like, oh, I don't have time for that. But if it's only five minutes, totally sustainable, totally doable. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So I set my alarm for five minutes, and in that five minutes, I close my eyes and I visualize soft, fertile earth beneath my feet. I see to my left as far as the eye can see gardens and vegetables and fruits of every single size, shape, and color that are feeding and sustaining humanity. And then to the right, I see orchards as far as the eye can see with every fruit and nut growing lushly on the vine.

Ellie (01:17:59):

My mouth is watering. And I'm like, that is food. I visualize horses running wild and free that I'm waving to as they pass by. 'cause they're my neighbors. I visualize walking through a thick and fertile forest and watching the trees grow so high, they touch the sky and every single wild creature beckoning me and welcoming me into their forest to be part of them. And one with them and hearing their sounds in their, their cries. And then walking through that forest and ending up on a beach where I'm looking into the ocean and I'm seeing the water clear and pure, the coral growing richly and every marine life thriving. And then like along the beach watching people, hugging cows and holding chickens and cuddling turkeys and holding hands and just feeling that wellbeing of a peaceful planet. And I live there for five minutes every single day. So that for the rest of the day, everything that I'm doing is born out of that possibility and that hope.

Moby (01:18:55):

Well, you visualized this and it exists and it's amazing. So I'm cautiously hopeful and optimistic that your daily visualization's gonna come true as well. Well,

Ellie (01:19:05):

It has to.

Moby (01:19:06):

Yeah. Yeah.

Ellie (01:19:07):

And I just wanna say, I've really enjoyed this, the questions that you asked and the conversations that we've had. I mean, I really don't want it to end. I could do this all day.

Lindsay (01:19:15):

I actually could too.

Ellie (01:19:18):

Um, thank you.

Lindsay (01:19:19):

Yeah, thank you.

Moby (01:19:28):

So everything about that from my perspective was wonderful.

Lindsay (01:19:33):

I just love Ellie. I just love her being with her. She's so warm and open and connected, and she's just so fantastic. And I think if anyone was going to be the face of an organization like this, she's the perfect person. I mean, I could just talk to her about this stuff for days and days and days.

Moby (01:19:55):

Are you familiar with in the world of cinematography or cinema? There's a French expression called mise-en-scène.

Lindsay (01:20:03):

Yes, I'm familiar.

Moby (01:20:04):

Okay. So my understanding is mise-en-scène means what you're talking about is reflected in the scene. Mm-Hmm. What we just experienced at Gentle Barn to me was mise-en-scène in the nicest possible way. Yeah. Because we're talking to Ellie, who's this amazing, thoughtful, intelligent, compassionate animal rights activist. But the llamas are walking by and the pigs are coming over to say hello. And the turkeys are curious and hanging out. And then we got to go see the cows. And it was a beautiful sunny day. It just felt really like the wonderful side of animal rights activism. 'cause it's easy to get overwhelmed when you have a trillion animals every year being killed by, and for humans, it's nice to be shown in person or on a camera. The potential for Eden. You know, the potential for like happy, safe, rescued animals, living their own lives, however they see fit. But

Lindsay (01:21:00):

Also with of kind of love that I wish all animals got. I don't know if you see this or if it comes across in the podcast, but in the middle of our taping, violinist walked behind us to go and play gentle violin for one of the pigs because the pig is very soothed by violin music. Yeah. Like that is just what she does. Every other day or something like that, a couple times a week a

Moby (01:21:29):

Violinist will, will come out. Yeah. Doing music, music therapy. Yeah. For the animals. And I have to say, it's, it's very easy to get overwhelmed with negativity towards humanity. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. When you look at war, when you look at genocide, when you look at bigotry, when you look at environmental destruction and devastation, when you look at fake news and attacks on democracy. But for me, especially when I look at how people casually contribute to the suffering and death of animals, it's so easy to get overwhelmed by that. And it's really so essential to see the alternative. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, to see this utopian way in which animals can live and wear violinists on their day off. Go and play soothing violin music for rescued pigs. Yeah. So thank you Lindsay and Bagel for coming with me to Gentle Barn.

Lindsay (01:22:15):

No, that was so fun. I mean, I wish I could go to Gentle Barn every dang day. I wish I could just enjoy my morning matcha in that pen and hugging, hugging turkeys and chickens and stuff. Should

Moby (01:22:27):

We say thank you to everybody else, including Stella? Yeah. Yeah. Right. Well, there's two Stellas, there's Stella, the baby Turkey and your friend Stella, who was helping us out. Well, Stella,

Lindsay (01:22:36):

The baby Turkey is actually Stellar now because they found out Stellar is a boy.

Moby (01:22:41):

Okay. So Stellar.

Lindsay (01:22:42):

Stellar the baby Turkey who was there and looks like an

Moby (01:22:45):

Adult who we met when we met Stellar, when Stella was still Stella and was a tiny baby eating blueberries outta my hand. So,

Lindsay (01:22:51):

So cute. But also Stella Gregg, who I love dearly, came out and helped us and she shot a bunch of the B-roll footage that we used of the animals and helped us with all of the stuff while we were there. It was nice to have the extra hand. So thank you, Stella. I also wanna say thank you to Mike Formanski for shooting and editing the video. And to Jonathan Nesvadba who masterfully captured and edited the audio that I'm sure was not easy to <laugh> to do since there were lots of squeaks and squawks and grunts and animal noises.

Moby (01:23:24):

<laugh> and, and also thank you to human content. And thank you to Ellie and thank you to everyone at Gentle Barn and all the volunteers. And thank you to all the rescued animals for having so much personality and being so delightful. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And thank you guys for listening and watching.

Lindsay (01:23:39):

And if you're in California or if you're in Tennessee, or if you're anywhere near a Gentle Barn, please go. Please follow them on social media. They're fantastic to see in person, but also just to see what they're doing day in and day out on their social. So go do that

Moby (01:23:54):

Too, and we'll be back in two weeks. So today was very not serious, but today was very thoughtful and poignant and looking at animal rights activism. In two weeks we might be doing something kind of ridiculous.

Lindsay (01:24:06):

So silly, so chaotic costumes might be involved,

Moby (01:24:10):

Wigs, and we learn something in two weeks. You'll see if you're watching the video bagels relationship to wigs

Lindsay (01:24:16):

Or any fake hair really extensions.

Moby (01:24:19):

It's amazing. Yeah.

Lindsay (01:24:20):

So

Moby (01:24:21):

Yeah, bagels favorite thing is attacking a wig and pretending it's some sort of creature.

Lindsay (01:24:26):

Bagel loves a wig. So in two weeks you'll get to see that in action.

Moby (01:24:29):

So we'll see you in two weeks. Thank you so much.

Lindsay (01:24:32):

Thank You so much!