Speaker 1 (00:00:00):

<silence>

Moby (00:00:15):

Hi, Linz.

Lindsay (00:00:15):

Hi, Mo.

Moby (00:00:16):

Hi, Bagel.

Bagel (00:00:16):

Hi, Mo.

Lindsay (00:00:17):

<laugh>. Also, I don't know why I do her voice so high. I feel like

Moby (00:00:20):

Cuz she's small,

Lindsay (00:00:21):

Well, yeah, I think it would sound high to us, but to her it probably sounds like, "Hi Mo". You know what I mean?

Moby (00:00:26):

I mean, when she barks like a crazy person, her bark is very, it's adorable, but it's incredibly shrill and high. It's, yeah. So one assumes like if she were to talk like a human also, she does talk. Sometimes when she gets excited, she'll go. She does. And it's not like a Rottweiler going.

Lindsay (00:00:43):

Yeah, no. It's

Moby (00:00:43):

Very different. So I think your voice is a pretty good approximation of what she would actually talk like if she spoke human words.

Lindsay (00:00:50):

Yeah. I guess that's true. But I do like to imagine that in her brain, she sounds like deep and

Moby (00:00:55):

She's descended from wolves. Yeah.

Lindsay (00:00:58):

Well, she's a small wolf.

Moby (00:00:59):

Yeah. She's a tiny little adorable wolf. So today on it's a big day. It's a big day with one caveat. But before I get to the caveat, uh, we're gonna be talking to Michael Greger, Dr. Michael Greger. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> an amazing doctor, as we've mentioned, who has written a bunch of phenomenal New York Times bestsellers on the, like, basically how to live long and avoid illness. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> like he had How Not To Die was his biggest seller

Lindsay (00:01:28):

And the cookbook that goes with it. Uh, and how to not diet

Moby (00:01:32):

And he's

Lindsay (00:01:32):

Also and how to not age.

Moby (00:01:34):

Yeah. And, and how to avoid pandemics. Yeah. All sorts of things. So he is a fascinating, remarkable activist. And I, I, I, as a college dropout, I'm just always so impressed by people who didn't drop outta college, but especially people who went to college for a really long time and became doctors like Michael Greger or Neal Barnard, and who then can use data and science to address vegan issues. It's so powerful. You know? 'cause you, I mean, unless you're insane or who knows what, like you can't really argue with data. You can't argue with facts. You can question it, but it's,

Lindsay (00:02:15):

You cannot care about killing an animal. Yeah. If you're crazy.

Moby (00:02:19):

Um, and I do find, I, I think we talk about this, we've talked about this is how even some of our older relatives who aren't interested in animal rights Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, they're not interested in the effect of animal ag on climate change, but they are being told by their doctors that they need to adopt a plant-based diet to avoid diabetes, cancer, heart disease, et cetera. So, but the caveat, remember I mentioned a caveat. Oh,

Lindsay (00:02:43):

I'll never forget it. Okay.

Moby (00:02:45):

Do you wanna know what the caveat is?

Lindsay (00:02:47):

Absolutely.

Moby (00:02:48):

Okay. One caveat is I'm realizing like I'm rambling on like a crazy person. I'm trying to figure out how much of that is just genetics and how much is caffeine, but it's not really either or word or some

Lindsay (00:02:59):

Other thing that we don't even know about.

Moby (00:03:01):

Yeah. Just, I'm excited to be sitting here talking to you in bagel. Yeah. And

Lindsay (00:03:05):

Our About Michael Greger. Doctor Michael Greger.

Moby (00:03:08):

Yeah. So the caveat, the real caveat is, uh, Dr. Greger was not with us in the studio. We spoke to him remotely. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So, as a result, we were all on our laptops. So the audio will be perfect, but the video will be a little more like a conventional podcast. 'cause sometimes our video, it's pretty professional, you know, like use nice cameras. Yeah. We have cameras. Nice lighting. And for this though, it will be like a more conventional old school podcast where it's like you and me and Dr. Greger on our laptop cameras. Yep. So if you're watching, um, I know a majority of people listen, and for the listeners, it'll sound like a good old regular podcast,

Lindsay (00:03:48):

Except for we're not in the same room. So if you're sensing any distance, you know, it's because we can't just reach out and touch. Yeah. Dr.

Moby (00:03:54):

Greger. And, but the video will be old school, like early days of podcasting when people just talked into their phones or computers. Mm-Hmm.

Lindsay (00:04:02):

<affirmative>. That said, I find Dr. Greger to be an incredibly fascinating, energetic person. I feel like if he could bottle up his energy and sell it, I would personally be lining up to buy it. Because this man is like running on some sort of futuristic battery that I don't quite understand.

Moby (00:04:20):

And I think we talked about this in our conversation with him, but like he, all he does is serve the public interest. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, like, he doesn't, I don't even think he takes a salary. I think he just like lives in a little apartment, travels constantly and just writes books and has his, you know, his 5 0 1 C3 org and just all he does is work to heal people and work to spread the news that eating a conventional American diet is essentially eating poison. So how about we go talk to Michael Greger now. Let's hear

Lindsay (00:04:53):

It from him.

Moby (00:05:08):

So, Dr. Greger, first off it goes without saying thank you for coming onto Moby Pod.

Dr. Greger (00:05:15):

Happy to anytime!

Moby (00:05:17):

We have a billion questions, but I'm also feeling preemptively guilty. I mean, to be honest with you, I feel preemptively guilty about almost everything in my life, but I feel guilty. 'cause you said you've already done like, what it like 70 or 80 interviews today?

Dr. Greger (00:05:33):

Nope! Just 14. You are lucky Number 15!

Moby (00:05:36):

And how's your, 'cause I know in the past when I've been doing junkets like that, I do start to decompensate at some point. How do you keep yourself from interview fatigue?

Dr. Greger (00:05:48):

This is my low energy state. You should have got me this morning. Then I'd really get some good going, you know, <laugh> then I'm caffeinated now. I, you know, I've just been drinking camera, meal tea for the last couple hours.

Moby (00:06:00):

Okay. Well, if at any point during our conversation you feel like taking a nap Got it. Or just crying quietly to yourself, by all means, feel free to do so. It's a deal. Um, and then my next question, where are you Dr. Greger? Right now, I

Dr. Greger (00:06:13):

Am in my favorite exotic locale home in Washington dc. I'm part of a, doing a hundred city speaking tour over these six months. Just got home from probably the longest leg of the whole trip. And so it is just a pleasure to be reunited with my pillow, <laugh>.

Moby (00:06:33):

It. You know, it's funny because I am getting ready to do a short tour this year, and I've spent the last 10 years avoiding travel and avoiding tour. And after decades of touring, it's gotten to the point, whenever I hear of anyone I know going to an airport, my immediate thought is to offer condolences <laugh>.

Dr. Greger (00:06:51):

Oh my God. It's even worse these days. I don't want to tell you that. But God brutal out there.

Moby (00:06:56):

Like, Lindsay loves traveling and she loves hotels. And every time she goes somewhere, I'm like, oh, are you sure? Like it, you have to go to a hotel. That seems like the worst thing in the world. And I forget that the vast majority of humans on the planet actually, like leaving their home and going to fancy places.

Dr. Greger (00:07:13):

I'm with you. I would rather be home with my jammies getting work done instead of, uh, getting zero work done on the road, no matter how much I, uh, I hope to accomplish. But

Lindsay (00:07:22):

It seems like you're doing a lot of work out on the road. I feel like. Yeah. That's where your work finds its home and reaches new people and, you know.

Dr. Greger (00:07:30):

Yeah. But how many people can I speak to in a day? I mean, I think the biggest, um, biggest so far in Copenhagen, I did two back to back thousand person theaters in one day. That's probably the most I could probably reach in a day. Whereas at home in my jammies, I could be reaching, you know, make a video that potentially reaches millions of people. It's hard to justify, but there's just something magic about in-person experiences. I mean, why do people go to the symphony when the, you know, it would sound better at home with a good bear headphones. Why do they go to the plays? Why do they go to the theater? Why do they, you know, it's because there's just something about being in a live performance that something, you know, something in our primate brains. And so I feel, I just have, I'm able to connect to people at a different level.

Dr. Greger (00:08:15):

There's this infectiousness of being in a room with lots of energy and humor, and I don't know. So, I mean, when people come up to me and they say, I've changed their lives, save their lives. Sometimes they talk about the books. Sometimes they talk about a video they saw, but so often it's like, I saw you and, you know, someplace, Arkansas, whatever, and you signed my book. And it was that, you know, moment on that I, you know, it's easy to justify being, uh, out on the road this much. But I certainly do enjoy the speaking, even though I do hate the travel. So

Moby (00:08:46):

You're like the nutrition equivalent of the Grateful Dead <laugh> <laugh>, you know, like, you know,

Dr. Greger (00:08:52):

That is, people

Moby (00:08:53):

Go at you like, dude, dude, dude, I, I

Dr. Greger (00:08:56):

Saw you at Red

Moby (00:08:56):

Rocks and when you kicked in to antioxidants, I was like,

Dr. Greger (00:09:01):

Bro,

Moby (00:09:01):

Peaking. And it was just like, dude, the lipid

Dr. Greger (00:09:05):

Section drove me wild. Y'all's <laugh>. Oh my God. Don't you remember me? I was in like the third row on the left. I mean, come on.

Moby (00:09:13):

Yeah, we made eye contact. I just felt this connection to you, <laugh>. So, okay, so when we were doing our research before talking to you, maybe I'm just a terrible researcher, but I couldn't find anything about your childhood, basically, according to the internet, you were born in Miami, and then you went to Cornell. So I'm assuming <laugh>, I'm assuming something happened between Miami and Ithaca.

Dr. Greger (00:09:37):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got outta diapers and then straight to Ithaca. Um, uh, no. Well, my seminal pivotal event in my life, um, happened in my youth with my grandma. Um, I was just a kid when my grandma was, um, basically sent home in a wheelchair to die. She had end stage heart disease, so many bypass surgeries, basically run outta plumbing at some point, could find a wheelchair crushing chest pain. Her life was over age 65. But then she heard about this guy, Nathan Pritikin, one of our early lifestyle medicine pioneers. And what happened next is actually detailed in Pritikin's biography, talks about France. Greger, my grandmother, they wheeled her in and she walked out though she was given a medical death sentence at age 65, thanks to a healthy diet, was able to enjoy another 31 years on this planet until age 96. Wow. To continue to enjoy our six grandkids, including me. That's why I went into medicine. That's why I practiced lifestyle medicine, why I started Nutrition facts.org. Why I wrote the book, how Not to Die, why all the proceeds from all my books are donated directly to charity. Uh, I just wanted to do for everyone's family what Pritikin did for my family.

Moby (00:10:46):

So then, which is a beautiful, inspiring story, but then the question is, the wonderful desire to be of service, is that just something that you think is innate? Or is there some like sort of spiritual tradition that you grew up with or that you embraced that led you to want to not be selfish, but rather go out and just be of service?

Dr. Greger (00:11:07):

Uh, it's my, yeah. No, it was my parents, particularly my mom. In fact, I have pictures on my wall. My mom getting dragged away and arrested on the Civil Rights Movement. She was part of Brooklyn Court, Congress on racial equality. Both my parents are very active in the civil rights movement, have long arrest records. So I was just grew up in this, uh, this expectation that you were going to dedicate your life to social justice in some manner. And I remember calling my mom as the one phone call I had from the police station, um, uh, the first time I got arrested in the Boston Commons, protesting their, um, anti, uh, homeless, uh, initiative. And I called up my mom and I told her, you know, you little, you know, you, you know Jewish mom, you know, they worry, you know? And, uh, and I called her up and, and said, you know, I, I got arrested. Civil disobedience and first words out of her mouth were what took you so long, <laugh>.

Moby (00:11:56):

Aw.

Dr. Greger (00:11:58):

Yep. So I have this. So I mean, that, it was just, it was just beaten into us from kids beaten into us with love, uh, to do something for the world.

Moby (00:12:06):

And also, I would say, 'cause I think, I mean, I'm a bit older than you, but we grew up sort of in the same environment. You know, I had a hippie mom, all of her hippie friends around the dinner table. People are always talking about politics and protests. Uh, I think I went to my first protest in San Francisco when I was four years old. And when I was 10, I was volunteering with the War Resistors League. So it's that same thing of like, go into the world, have integrity, don't trust power. And it, it's interesting hearing you say the same thing, but I will say culture at that time reinforced it, you know, all the Norman Lear TV shows. There's just this idea of challenge, authority, have integrity, be of service. And then of course, the Reagan years happened, and all that got thrown out the window.

Dr. Greger (00:12:51):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then, then it's all about greed is good. Yep. Uh, yeah, no. So there really was a cultural shift. Um, and, you know, it'd be nice to, to get back to that idea that we are here, we exist to serve, to reduce suffering in the world. Um, and to do something beyond ourselves, to be able to stand up and get up in the morning, look ourselves in the mirror, in the context of this massive suffering around the world. How can anyone be okay with themselves if they're not dedicated to at least some part of their life, some part of their resources, some part of their energy giving out to the world to try to make the world a better place? I dunno how people do it.

Moby (00:13:25):

I keep saying, as you were talking, I just kept sort of saying in my head like, we're at a revival. I was like, amen. Testify

Dr. Greger (00:13:32):

<laugh>. You know, one of my, one of my favorite quotes of all time was from, uh, sixties activist, um, Abby Hoffman, who was asked in an interview like, why he, you know, does what he does, you know, dedicated his life to activism? And he said, I just want to do what has to be done so much. I don't know why everyone else doesn't feel the same way. Yeah. Right. And that, that just so resonates with me. It's like, I'm not the weirdo. Why doesn't everybody wanna help their fellow beings on this planet? I'm like, how could you just live a life of, you know, I don't know, shopping, consumerism, whatever. Like, where do you get a feeling of meaning in your life, <laugh>? Why do you even get out of bed every day if they're, if you're not, you know, don't have the satisfaction at the end of the day that you've contributed to making the world a better place. Yeah.

Moby (00:14:21):

Um, but one thing you just reminded me of is I feel like when they were writing the Declaration of Independence or the Bill of Rights, which I, to be honest, I don't know the difference. Um, they made one mistake. They said, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And I feel like the happiness part has actually screwed us up. 'cause everyone applies the metric of happiness to their lives. And they're like, oh, no, I'm not happy enough. I don't own enough. I'm not rich enough. I'm not this enough. If I was to build a time machine, I'd go back and maybe whisper in Thomas Jefferson's ear and say, you know, instead of happiness, what about purpose like life, liberty, and the pursuit of purpose or pursuit of meaning that I feel like that would've potentially addressed and maybe ameliorated a lot of problems. Because what we've created is this culture of selfishness that isn't working. And I don't that that's a hu whole other tangent, but it's really encouraging to hear you say that. Well,

Dr. Greger (00:15:17):

I mean it, I mean, it's the incentives, uh, you know, buying things. I mean, that's what makes <laugh> makes the world go around. That's how our economy is based on selfishness, more stuff, you know, uh, you know, willing to rent yourself, rent yourself to somebody else to make them profit. Otherwise, you don't eat your child starves. You don't get housing. I mean, the basic fundamental human rights are based on, you know, whether or not we can rent your small life out to the, the production of profit for somebody else. I mean, that's just, that's what it's all about. Um, unless we're able to take a step back and say, wait a second, what's really important in life, you know, instead of getting that second car or whatever, maybe if I downside reduce my expenses, I can actually, you know, do some volunteering, cut my hours back at work, and actually do something that's worthwhile in

Moby (00:16:08):

The world. And the irony there, as I've found in my own life, the more selfish I am, the less happy I am, the more altruistic I am, and the more devoted I am to service and purpose, the happier I am. It's this sort of wonderful, ironic paradox. And I first read about that in a book by the Dalai Lama, and I was actually really annoyed by that idea. When I read it, I was like, I wanna be selfish. Like I want selfishness to result in happiness. And the Dalai Lama was like, well, no, that's actually not how it works. And I'm act now at this point in my life, thrilled that selfishness doesn't create happiness and service more likely does.

Dr. Greger (00:16:44):

And so you get the best of both worlds. You know, it's like, I think people look at people that dedicate their lives to, you know, improving the world and think, oh my God, what a, what a terrible existence. You're just surrounded by suffering and you're just thinking about these horrible problems all the time. But when in fact, like you can feel like you're part of the solution, you're actually doing something about it. Everybody else is going about their merry little way, you know, shopping online in the back of their mind. They know they're suffering when they're stepping over the harmless person, even if they try to ignore them in the back of their mind, they know they are in this privileged position where there's, you know, a billion people in absolute poverty. Oh. I mean, there's tremendous suffering in the world, even if you're not thinking about it all the time. And it's gotta just, um, you know, corrode it your soul. Whereas we, with this acknowledgement of being part of the solution, there's this integrity of living a life, uh, aligned with one's deepest values that you just can't get, uh, anywhere else.

Moby (00:17:41):

Amen. All I'm saying in my head is amen and testify. We're in, we're in a revival meeting with Dr. Greger <laugh>. <laugh>,

Lindsay (00:17:48):

That's something Dr. Greger

Moby (00:17:50):

Lindsay, I, I'm, oh, sorry. I'm, I was just talking over you to say, please prevent me from monopolizing the conversation. 'cause it's way too easy for me to just be a loud mouth.

Lindsay (00:17:59):

No, no, no. What I was going to say is, I think that there's a perfect overlap that you have found in your work, Dr. Greger of purpose and selflessness and giving back. But you have found a way to make that a part of the thing that helps people live healthier, better lives, where you can be an animal activist, but you can also live longer, live healthier with less disease. And I love that you get to live in both worlds, because I know there's a lot of people who might talk about nutrition, but aren't necessarily living life or giving people other people the opportunity to also live with purpose as it connects to their diet. So I guess what I would love to know is, many people go into medical school, but not many people come out and end up, you know, being such a, such a powerful voice for the world, what, what they've learned and what they believe in. I'm so curious about how you went from being in school and learning everything that you learned to being where you are today and being this voice for a plant-based diet. Well,

Dr. Greger (00:19:11):

It's because I went into medicine, uh, you as a envisioning it as a vehicle to affect social change. So before I even went to medical school, I knew what I was going to use medicine for, um, to help people. I, I just, thanks to my genetics upbringing, I was really good at standardized tests. So basically, you know, you gimme a pencil, you know, and some, you know, bubbles to, to, to fill in. I could basically rock the test. And so I could do anything. I I could be a lawyer to help the world. I could be a doctor to help the world. And there was just this remarkable social authority afforded to physicians in this society. Um, uh, really, I, I don't think they, they or they earned it really, but, uh, but it's, it's, it's amazing. I mean, you know, doctors could get on tv, sell dog food, anything.

Dr. Greger (00:19:56):

People listen to doctors. And so, you know, why not use that authority to do good things in the world? Um, and so that's really what led me to, uh, to medicine. And although I initially started practicing, it's like, how many people can you see in a day? Right? Even with HMOs trying to make you 15 minute appointments, you can see a couple dozen people maximum. Right? Um, and so then I started, you know, going out and giving talks, speaking in medical schools, time to train the trainers, affect the whole next generation of doctors. But again, speaking to hundreds. Um, and then, uh, so I started making my lectures originally on VHS, actually, that's how long ago it was, but eventually DVDs, um, and was so sending those out by the thousands, but it really wasn't until nutritionfacts.org until I was able to put everything online when I could finally reach millions of people. And so now I feel like even though I'm not doing that one-on-one clinical medicine that I miss, I'm, you know, doing medicine on a broader scale and being able to get out this kinda life-changing lifesaving information to as broad an audience as possible.

Moby (00:20:57):

I know that there's debate around this term, but either vegan or plant-based. Which one, which one do you prefer for yourself?

Dr. Greger (00:21:05):

Oh, plant-based. I mean, so be as a physician terms like vegetarian and vegan, just tell me what you don't eat. I mean, do you actually eat vegetables, right, <laugh> for rocks? Yeah. You have some of these college campuses and you have these, you know, vegans, you know, for the climate or animals or some other, you know, and they're, you know, living off of french fries and beer. Right. But, you know, <laugh> not helpful foods. Um, and so, uh, yeah, so, uh, plant-based. Oh, you actually eat plants? Oh, there we go. Okay. That gives me a sense in terms of, uh, one's health. So, uh, that's why, you know, uh, professor Emeritus of Biochemistry, T. Colin Campbell Cornell University coined this term whole food plant-based diet, um, which, uh, you know, which, which really focuses the center on eating the healthiest of healthy foods. Um, in fact, his, uh, physician, um, uh, son and, uh, daughter-in-Law actually did a study where they took a group of vegetarians and vegans and randomized them to a whole food plant-based diet, and saw significant improvements in LDL cholesterol and, and weight, et cetera. So, you know, vegans could stand eating a little more plant-based too.

Moby (00:22:10):

Um, I feel like, Lindsay, do you have any thoughts about that?

Lindsay (00:22:12):

I feel personally attacked, uh, Dr. Greger <laugh>, um, <laugh>, I, and I say that because I am one of the junk food vegans that lives on tater tots and red wine. But

Moby (00:22:24):

You also, Lindsay, to be fair, you, you do love a good tater tot and a good red wine and french fry, but you also do have like, your oatmeal with berries and flax seeds and matcha. So like, don't throw yourself under the bus too much outed,

Dr. Greger (00:22:40):

Outed.

Moby (00:22:40):

I know. Yeah. I, I've outed you as a healthy

Lindsay (00:22:42):

But vegan. Yeah, I veer the lane of junk food vegan, but I try very hard to be a plant-based person.

Dr. Greger (00:22:47):

Well, look, it doesn't matter what you eat on your birthdays, holiday, special occasions on a day-to-day basis, we really should try to eat healthy and center our diets around whole plant food.

Lindsay (00:22:56):

I love that. It makes it so simple. That's why I, it's so simple. I love it.

Moby (00:23:00):

<laugh>, when and when did you become, uh, I was gonna say vegan, but we're gonna, for the purpose of this conversation, <laugh>, stay away from that. When did you go plant-based? Um,

Dr. Greger (00:23:08):

So it was, uh, when Dr. Dean Ornish's, um, lifestyle heart trial was published summer of 1990, and the Lancet, the most prestigious medical journal in the world, proven for the first time arteries could open up without drugs, without surgery. So, you know, uh, just this plant-based diet and lifestyle program, um, uh, and so look, I had seen it with my own eyes with my grandma, but here it was first, for the first time, black and white, published in this prestigious medical journal, proving it to be the case, those randomized to a plant-based diet and lifestyle program opened up their arteries. And look, this is the number one killer of humanity, um, uh, in higher income countries, heart disease, including the United States. And so if that's all a plant-based diet could do reverse the number one killer of men and women, ah, shouldn't that gonna be the default diet until proven otherwise? And the fact that I also be so effective in preventing, arresting, reversing other leading killers like type two diabetes and high blood pressure, which seemed to make the case for plant-based eating simply overwhelming. And so that was really, uh, what did it, so 34 years ago, uh, and, uh, going strong to this day,

Lindsay (00:24:09):

Um, Dr. Greger, I love that one thing. 'cause you mentioned the study, the Ornish study, which was at the time a novel idea, right? Like, people did not expect the results that they were getting

Dr. Greger (00:24:21):

Absolutely revolutionary. We thought heart disease got worse, worse, worse than you die for the first time. Here he is showing you can reverse heart disease without drugs, without surgery, just plants.

Lindsay (00:24:32):

And after that, all of the research that has come out in support of a plant-based diet, that not only can it reverse heart disease, but a gazillion other things too, right?

Dr. Greger (00:24:41):

I know about a gazillion, but I definitely, that's

Lindsay (00:24:45):

Leading, that's a real number. <laugh> <laugh>,

Dr. Greger (00:24:49):

Uh, yeah, no, no, I mean, so that, uh, the fact that it's so effective in preventing, arresting, reversing so many other leading killers almost makes one kinda wait a second. Any and fact that should be a red flag. Anytime someone's trying to sell you some snake oil that says, not only does it help prevent cancer, but heart disease and kidney disease, it just does everything. It's a panacea. Um, but once you realize, take a step back. What was saying, what is the mechanism, right? A plant-based diet is a heart healthy diet and artery healthy diet. And every single one of our organ systems needs to have blood flow to bring nutrients and oxygen to get rid of waste products. So of course, a heart healthy diet is a brain healthy diet, is a liver healthy diet is a kidney healthy diet. And since inflammation plays such a key role in so many of our different diseases, of course an anti-inflammatory diet, which is synonymous with a plant-based diet, of course it decreases risk of, uh, diabetes and stroke, et cetera. And so, yeah, no wonder that, uh, one diet to rule them all, um, works so well

Moby (00:25:44):

Regarding the sort of the beneficial consequences of a plant-based diet. Seeing as you've been doing this for 34 years, um, and I'm not gonna brag, but I've been vegan for three, seven years. I mean, not that it's a competition, but it is <laugh>. Um, so seeing as you've been doing this for 34 years, what has surprised you the most? I mean, obviously you mentioned Dr. Ornish's, how surprising that was when he published that in Lancet. And I actually remember reading that in Time Magazine when it happened, but has anything like, for example, the, for me, one of the things that really surprised me was how plant-based diets can affect Alzheimer's. Like the role between like gut health and brain health is something that when I first started finding out about that, I was like, that's like next level magic

Dr. Greger (00:26:26):

Wild. No, absolutely. It's the reversal. I mean, that's the most exciting thing we have. I mean, so because the, you know, when prevention works, nothing happens. It's very un prevention's, very unsexy, but reversal, disease reversal for, especially for diseases for which we thought were irreversible. So for example, we used to think type two diabetes was irreversible. We could slow down with medications, insulin, injections, we could slow down the rate at which our diabetics go blind, lose their kidney function, go on dialysis, lose their lower limbs, but worse, worse, worse than they die. Then all of a sudden along comes, you know, uh, healthy diet and lifestyle and you show, wait a second, you can reverse cure type two diabetes have normal blood pressures, excuse me, normal blood sugars, eating a normal diet. I mean, that's just absolutely mind blowing. And yeah, so what Ornish is working on most recently, so first the, you know, after conquering heart disease, he went on to killer number two.

Dr. Greger (00:27:14):

Cancer showed the same kind of plant-based diet and lifestyle could reverse the, uh, early stage prostate cancer, actually shrink tumors, a first diet ever shown to do anything like that. And now, probably the most challenging, uh, um, uh, intervention of his life said, well, let's, let's take it on to Alzheimer's, early stage Alzheimer's, let's randomize people to the same kind of plant-based diet and lifestyle program. The study is done, um, has yet to be published, but, uh, I've talked to Ornish about it, and he claims we're going to see some tremendous results. And so I'll, uh, believe it when I see it because I'm skeptical. But that would absolutely just be a bombshell in the medical community to sing of something like Alzheimer's, which is the most feared condition of later life, a major public health challenge. Um, 4 million Americans affected the fact that we could e even slow the rate at which cognitive decline would be something, but to reverse the progression of Alzheimer's, that is just something no one thought was possible. And how did he do it? It's a miracle drug. No. Did it with feeding people healthy food?

Lindsay (00:28:16):

It's unbelievable. It seems like this kind of magic bullet, so to speak, which makes me wonder, I, in, in doing my research on you and your work, people really come for you, man, <laugh>

Moby (00:28:30):

<laugh>.

Lindsay (00:28:32):

People are trying to take down your whole thing all the time. I mean, you must be just dodging these little bizarre, like Joe Rogan carnivore Doctor. What? It's just so bananas what you must deal with on a daily basis with people. Trying to take apart your science.

Dr. Greger (00:28:53):

If people don't hate you, you're not doing something right. You know? I mean, yeah. No, no. I mean, yeah, no, like, if I had no pushback, it's like, well, God, what little impact would I have on this world? Challenging these massive industries? And they don't even care. Like, I don't even get whisper. Yeah. Um, you know, I wanna be featured in, you know, in in the meet monthly <laugh>. I wanna be like, you know, <laugh>, I, you know, I mean, I should be, uh, you know, and if I'm not, if they're ignoring me, that's the worst thing because then it's like they don't see this information as a threat. Mm-Hmm.

Moby (00:29:26):

Well, you remind me a little bit. I was at a life extension event, very fancy. It was like, you know, one of the founders of Google was there, there were four or five Nobel laureates at this event. It was at Norman Lear's house going way back to Norman Lear. And everyone was talking about life extension and all the progress that's being made, and like, what's the upper limit of life extension? And then obviously the big problem with life extensions, like, sure you can extend people's lives, but their brains are gonna, you know, atrophy at the same rate they always are. Conversation, conversation back and forth. What's the progress? Technological progress, pharmaceutical progress. And here, my college dropout from SUNY purchase in Yukon, and I raise my hand and I say, yeah, what about a plant-based diet? And the room got very quiet. And the one Nobel laureate was wonderfully honest. She said, absolutely a plant-based diet addresses all of these issues and can basically fix almost everything she said, but I'm sorry, no one's gonna get rich off of it. And I, I loved her for her honesty. Like they weren't looking at life extension. They're looking at profiting from life extension. And it was such an aha moment. I was like, oh, that's the criteria that people apply to this. Not saving lives and extending lives. It's profiting from saving lives and extending lives.

Dr. Greger (00:30:47):

You know, it reminds me of my last book on weight loss. You know, both dieting and anti-aging are multibillion dollar industries. And with so much money in the mix, you know, anyone seeking even basic practical advice in either arena, living lighter or longer, is faced with just an inscrutable barrage of pills and potions. Um, you know, I mean, even as a physician with the luxury of waiting deep in the medical literature, who is a, you know, challenge to tease out facts from forests. And look, if it took me three years to sift through all the signs, you know, the casual observer just says, no chance. Um, but that just made the project even, uh, even more valuable, I think. Um, and I think people are really desperate for that kind of objectivity in this era of medical misinformation.

Lindsay (00:31:31):

So I, I have some meat eaters in my family. I don't love it, but, you know, I do what I can. Uh, I try to live by example. I will say my family, many of them are from Texas and they heart disease runs in my family, but so does terrible diets. Um, <laugh>, uh, so maybe it's a cultural thing, but when they've gotten sick, their doctors in Texas have said, you have to go plant-based. Oh, nice. If you wanna live longer, nice. You have to go plant-based, which I was, I was shocked to hear, because, you know, it's Texas. I've come to expect the worst, the worst of my Texan, of my Texan, uh, bre brethren and crin. Um, so, which I love, I love that. But my meet family always is asking me these questions. And so, and I feel like I want to ask you, wait,

Moby (00:32:21):

Lindsay, I do have to interrupt for, I have to interrupt for one second. Does your meet family read meet monthly <laugh>

Lindsay (00:32:27):

<laugh>? There's a good chance they publish Meet monthly <laugh>. Okay. I I, they're always asking me some questions. So there's some questions I would like to put to you because my, um, my answers are always, they always come back down to, but you're, you're hurting an animal and you're, you're, you are supporting the suffering of a gazillion, that's the exact number, um, animals a year. So I guess I, I wanna ask you some of the questions that, that they asked me that they're that're a little bit more scientific. And so you'll know, one of the questions they always, people always ask me, meat family ask me, are, are, they say that meat has more micronutrients, has a micronutrient density that's much higher than anything that you can get from any, uh, individual plant source. And they say that you can't get, you can't compensate with a plant-based diet for any B12 or CLA. I don't know what CLA is, but this is the word that they say, um, that you miss out on for meat. What do you think about that?

Dr. Greger (00:33:39):

Yeah, so total about micronutrient density. There's nothing more nutrient dense than darker and leafy vegetables in terms of nutrition per calorie. Nothing comes even close. Um, but, uh, but B12, uh, critically important for anyone consuming a plant-based diet. There are two vitamins not made by plants. One is vitamin D made by animals such as yourself when you walk outside. It's the sunshine vitamin. However, some people don't get inadequate. Sunshine may need to supplement the diet, um, with 2000 international units of vitamin D three a day. Um, and the only other vitamin not made by plants. So in, in general, we just try to get all our nutrition from the produce aisle, not the supplement aisle or elsewhere. Um, but the only other vitamin not made by plants is vitamin B12, not made by animals either, but by little microbes that blanket the earth. So we used to get B12 drinking out of a mountain stream or well water something, but now we chlorinate the water supply to kill off any bacteria.

Dr. Greger (00:34:32):

So don't get a lot of B12 in our water anymore. Don't get a lot of cholera either. That's a good thing. We live in a nice sanitary world. So our fellow great apes get all the B12. They need eating bugs, dirt, and feces. I perverse supplements 2000 micrograms once a week of iCal balm and no shelf stable form. Get all the B12 you need up until age 65, then everyone should be taking a thousand micrograms a day, um, according to the National Academy of Sciences. So at age 50, regardless of what you eat, everybody has to be on a B12 supplement or read B12 45 foods. And those you eating plant-based diet just need to extend that recommendation throughout the lifespan.

Moby (00:35:08):

So one other B12 question is, I remember when I went plant-based such a long time ago, one of the things I thought was magical was the Tempe I bought listed a thousand percent of the RDA of B12 as a micronutrient. Was that nonsense or was that true?

Dr. Greger (00:35:27):

Well, if they added B12, it would be true. If they didn't add B12, it would be nonsense.

Moby (00:35:32):

Okay. And can B12 also be found in soil? 'cause my understanding was that B12, uh, potentially came from like algae and soil.

Dr. Greger (00:35:41):

So yeah, no, it comes from microorganisms in the soil. Um, uh, but the B12 really isn't taken up much by plants. Um, and so, uh, so you need to, so I mean, if you had a lot of B12 in your soil and you're eating garden vegetables with a lot of dirt clinging into the roots and you didn't wash your vegetables, uh, you get B12 that way. But, uh, for food safety purposes, not washing your vegetables is not recommended.

Moby (00:36:07):

Okay. Um, Lynn, any other meat family? I, I just love the idea of your, I I have this idea of like the meat family sitting around reading meat monthly listening to Meat fm. Um, do you have any more meat family questions?

Lindsay (00:36:23):

I have a couple. I have a couple. Let's do it. Okay. My meat family <laugh>, they say, they say, sure, sure, black beans have a lot of protein, but they also have a lot of carbs. How do you maintain an adequate protein intake without overloading on carbs?

Dr. Greger (00:36:39):

Uh, the, the villain villainization of carbohydrates is, um, because most carbohydrates people eat are crap, indeed, table sugar, white flour, et cetera. And so most people cutting down on carbs, you know, means cutting down on donuts, and that's a good thing. But, um, uh, there are healthy sources of carbohydrates like beans, probably the healthiest source of carbohydrates, legumes, beans, split pea chickpeas and lentils. Whereas whole grains, fruits, um, uh, these are pre-pack come pre-packaged with the polyphenols and fi and fiber necessary to properly digest at the proper rate carbohydrates. And so, uh, I mean, carbohydrates are the primary fuel for our brain, um, for our body. And so, but we just want to get them in healthful form. So in general, we're trying to get all of our macronutrients, our protein or carbohydrates and fats from whole plant foods. Um, and so, uh, so rather than, you know, getting, you know, table sugar, which is the kind of, uh, you know, stripped away pure carbohydrate form or oil, which is a stripped away kind of table sugar equivalent of effecting or protein powders, again, stripped away separate from everything else.

Dr. Greger (00:37:48):

That's what the industry wants you to, uh, to, to buy because that's why they make money. Um, or, you know, they can plaster, you know, 13 vitamins and minerals on their fluorescent marshmallow breakfast cereal or something, <laugh>. But, uh, what they can't make money on is healthy food because healthy food rots, it goes bad, it's perishable. How you make money is sell a snack cake that sits on the shelf for a few weeks, or even better carbonated brown sugar water. It's like pure profit. I mean, so the system is just set up to promote the selling and promotion of the worst foods, just because the worst foods are the most profitable foods. That's why we're bombarded by ads for fast food and junk food, and not by sweet potatoes and broccoli. 'cause there's just no money to be made. The head of Coca-Cola is not ringing their sticky hands together thinking, how can I contribute to the childhood obesity epidemic? They are thinking, how do I maximize shareholder value in the next quarterly earnings? And should they get a a, a hint of a conscience, they would be booted out and replaced by somebody who would stick to maximizing shareholder profit. How do you do that? It's not from selling, you know, avocados, it's from selling, um, sugar, water and bottle taxpayer subsidized sugar, um, in a bottle. And so it's just pure profit. It's just how the system works. These companies don't necessarily have the best interests of you and your family at heart.

Moby (00:39:13):

Um, so Lynn, you mentioned black beans. And I'm gonna say something and you guys can feel free to ridicule me out loud or quietly in private or later with your friends and family <laugh> or all of the above. So basically, um, I used to be a junk food vegan, you know, especially when I was doing tons of drugs and drinking. And then I got sober and I started just obsessively reading more and more about nutrition. And this is where you guys can ridicule me. Or if anyone listening can think, wow, you're bald, but you're such a hippie. I started having this strange sacramental spiritual aspect of my eating. Like I'll use a black bean as an example. Like a black bean to me is miraculous. You know, like if like point to a church, church is nice, bunch of dead rocks, fine, great, you know, point to old books, sure those are pleasant.

Moby (00:40:10):

But a black bean, if you wanna learn about some sort of divine spark, think of a universe that could create a black bean. It's the one of the most perfect inventions that's ever existed. You know, it, they last thousands of years, they found beans in a tomb in Egypt and they still sprouted. They're 4,000 years old. So this amazing food that also, as you mentioned, like tons of fiber, tons of protein, phenomenal compliment of anthocyanin and antioxidants. And I look at that and that to me, and this is maybe we even edit this part out 'cause I know I sound like a lunatic, but that to me is almost like worthy of a lifetime of study and worship. That one single little bitty black bean that costs nothing and sucks carbon out of the atmosphere when it's growing and keeps us alive and protects us from disease there. That's my spiel. <laugh>,

Dr. Greger (00:41:08):

You stick it in the ground and it produces more black beans. It's amazing

Moby (00:41:13):

Cost, nothing basically free and perfect. And I feel like if there is a divine entity, the divine entity is like, uh, I gave you everything. Like it's all free. It's all right there. It will keep you alive and keep you healthy. So what do you do? You throw it away and you make garbage that poisons you.

Dr. Greger (00:41:33):

The end is not <laugh>.

Lindsay (00:41:36):

One, one thing I wanted to ask you, because I'm sure this comes up probably daily for you, is like, is is a bit of a protein myth. <laugh>, this kind, this idea that you have to have these unbelievable amounts of protein every day and every time anyone I know tells anyone that they're vegan, the first thing that they say is, but where do you get your protein? You know, what, what, what do, what is your general response to that line of questioning?

Dr. Greger (00:42:09):

Anyone who doesn't know how to get enough protein on a plant-based diet, doesn't know beans,

Lindsay (00:42:14):

<laugh>,

Dr. Greger (00:42:15):

Legumes, beans, split pea, chickpeas, lentils, the plant protein superstars. Um, uh, so we need 0.8 grams per healthy kilogram body weight. Uh, according to the National Academies of Sciences, the most prestigious medical body in the United States. That's about, uh, 45 grams a day for the average height woman, 55 days, uh, grams for the average height man, um, uh, soup or easy to get, you know, one good PB and j can get you, uh, you know, a third of the way there. Um, you know, it's not something we need to worry about. In fact, if anything we need to worry about excessive protein consumption. I mean, a key, um, factor in my anti-aging eight in the new book, how not to age, is protein restriction down to recommended levels. Um, 'cause that's how you boost FGF 21, this longevity hormone, how you suppress the pro aging enzymes and hormones like IGF one and mTOR on down the list. Um, uh, so yeah, longevity is all about restricting protein, um, to maximize longevity.

Moby (00:43:10):

So I remember early on in my plant-based journey, and please correct me if I'm mistaken, that reading that protein, an excess of protein can actually lead to osteoporosis because it creates an acidic balance within the body that requires leaching calcium from the bones. Am I insane or is there any truth to that?

Dr. Greger (00:43:32):

Oh, there used to be we, you used to think that,

Moby (00:43:34):

Okay, so I'm just an old person. <laugh> <laugh>.

Dr. Greger (00:43:37):

Well, you just haven't, haven't checked the, the literature in a while. Yeah, no. That, that used to be the consensus opinion in the, in nutritional literature. Because basically you give people a steak and all of a sudden they pee out, uh, they pee out excess calcium, you're like, well, there's only one place. Calcium people are coming from the primary storage unit in the skeleton. So every time you eat a steak, you pee out that much calcium, you're gonna dissolve your bones away. But what happens is protein actually increases calcium absorption. And so you can do, uh, calcium isotope studies where you basically give people radioactive calcium along with a steak. And what they pee out is radioactive calcium, not the calcium found in your bones. So it's actually an absorption enhancing effect rather than peeing your bones down the toilet effect. And

Moby (00:44:16):

In terms of calcium, 'cause I know that was always, when I first went vegan plant-based, my mom was obsessed with two things, calcium and protein. She, you know, we had these big debates. She was like, where are you gonna get your protein? And that's when I, you know, red diet for New America and Laurel's kitchen and everything I could get my hands on to sort of show her that, like a plate of brown rice and black beans basically was a protein powerhouse. But the calcium thing was always a little tricky. What are some good plant-based sources of calcium? Ah,

Dr. Greger (00:44:48):

Well the best sources are low ox, like dark green leafy vegetables. So that's all greens, uh, with the exception of spinach bee greens and Swiss chard, which are fantastic foods, but just stingy with their calcium. Uh, you can also get calcium from almonds, sesame seeds, calcium fortified soy milks, but uh, dark green leafy vegetables have so many other benefits. That would be my primary recommendation.

Moby (00:45:12):

Do I need to be scared of oxalates? 'cause I eat a lot of dark greens, like a lot of red

Lindsay (00:45:19):

Char. What does an oxalate also?

Dr. Greger (00:45:20):

No, so a as you should, but if you're eating as many greens as I recommend you eat cups a day plural, then you should diversify your greens and not, uh, stick to just spinach, swiss chard and be greens. The high oxalate greens. 'cause it can increase your risk of kidney stones. The, uh, the most common kidney stone is the calcium oxalate stone. And if the, the concentrations of oxalate two on your kidney, they can crystallize like, uh, like rock candy in your kidneys. And there's only one way it's coming out and it's coming out through your urethra and it's a sharp spiky crystal, and it does not feel good

Moby (00:45:57):

Unless I imagine there are some people on the planet who might be into that sort of thing.

Dr. Greger (00:46:03):

<laugh>, uh, in which case

Moby (00:46:04):

Eat a lot of oxalate, eat in, get those crystals going through there.

Lindsay (00:46:08):

They're going to the bee green store pie <laugh>.

Dr. Greger (00:46:12):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Popeye was right then

Lindsay (00:46:15):

<laugh>. Okay, go. Um, here, here's a question for you. Something that people often say is, how do I overcome, if I have a craving for a non-vegan food item, what is my body actually craving? If someone is craving meat, for instance, meat family would say that it's their biology telling them, their body telling them what they need is they need meat. Right? Right, right, right. So what do you think is going on there when someone has a craving for a specific food, like a piece of steak, perhaps, what's actually going on there?

Dr. Greger (00:46:53):

So, I mean, do they think that when you have a craving for cotton candy, your body desperately needs cotton candy <laugh>, or in your body when you wanna have a a Krispy Kreme donut, it's like, wow, your, your body has a donut deficiency and you're like desperate.

Lindsay (00:47:07):

No, I might

Dr. Greger (00:47:09):

Deficiency

Lindsay (00:47:10):

Natural bio.

Dr. Greger (00:47:12):

We have a natural biological urges for calorie-dense foods. Why? Because we evolved in the context of scarcity. Um, even going back a few hundred years, massive famines, killing millions of people. Um, we just didn't have the kind of abundance we have today. And so we have this, this desperate, those who didn't have this desperate craving for calorie dense foods died and didn't pass along their genes. The same thing is this lust for salt. There was no salt shakers, right? So if you didn't seek out salt, then you would not make it to pass along your genes. And so the, so what is, um, uh, nutri? What is calorically dense? You know, honey sugar brains bone marrow, like, I mean, we just have this fat. Um, and so we just have this craving that's what our taste buds want. Um, uh, and so the pro the food industry knows exactly what those natural biological urges are and intentionally crafts food, so you just can't have one, um, by, you know, adding the fat, salt, sugar, et cetera.

Dr. Greger (00:48:17):

Um, and so, um, particularly God meat these days, I mean, meat used to be, you know, wild animals have like, you know, 4%, you know, uh, fat calories. And today chickens are like 20% of fat by calories, more fat than protein because we so genetically manipulated, um, uh, these animals to be extra juicy, which is extra saturated fat essentially. Um, and why, because we had, that's, that's, well, you get people to, you know, to spend money on a burgers because they're craving, um, that, uh, caloric density. And so we need to, you know, uh, to, to really kinda, uh, kind of beat our genes in a sense. Um, similarly, uh, uh, physical inactivity, that's energy conservation. Again, that's what saved our lives. Conserving energy, those running around, they were dead before they passed along their jeans because there wasn't any food around. So sitting on the couch eating, you know, potato chips is like the most evolutionarily con consonant thing there is.

Dr. Greger (00:49:19):

Basically you're just eating maximum amount of calories, moving as little as possible. Um, but we now recognize that, um, those are not necessarily the most health-promoting things in this age of abundance. The excess, you know, concentrated forms of calories in this age of obesity of, uh, pandemic obesity. You know, that's, that, that can be harmful. And so we need to control our environment and surround ourselves by healthy foods, um, in a way that an addict has to, you know, uh, you know, keep, keep, uh, you know, addictive substances out of their purview. Otherwise they'll, the, the, those cravings will lead one down a dark tunnel.

Moby (00:50:00):

What are your top 10 favorite foods? Like personally, objectively, let, let give it almost feel like this is like the old David Letterman show. It's like Dr. Greger's top 10 favorite foods that are remarkable and life giving and will protect us from asteroid strikes.

Dr. Greger (00:50:21):

<laugh>, I wish. Um, yeah. Well, in terms of anti-aging foods, um, according to global burn disease, state largest systemic analysis risk factors in human history funded by the Bill Melinda Gates Foundation, largest life expectancy gains would be made by eating more legumes, being split. These sugar and lentils probably because of the, their prebiotics, they, they, their, their, the resistant starch and dietary fiber, which feeds our good gut bugs, which as you said, doesn't just improve intestinal health, but has effects on mental health, immune function, decreasing inflammation, all sorts of wonderful things. Um, and so no wonder legumes are the primary protein source of all five. Um, uh, formally studied, uh, blue zones, these areas of exceptional longevity around the world throughout history, the longest and healthiest living people in the world, up to 10 times the rate of centenarians, those that re reach triple digits. What do they all center their diets around?

Dr. Greger (00:51:15):

Primary source of protein, legumes, whole plant foods in general. So we can learn, um, uh, from these, uh, these, these healthy folks. Um, uh, and then, uh, so the legumes rule, the roost on a preserving basis on a gram for gram basis. Nuts are actually, uh, associated with lower risk of premature death compared to any other food group. I encourage people to eat a palm full of walnuts every day. Um, berries make it onto my anti-aging list, uh, thanks to these anthocyanin pigments, um, which are the kind of bright, colorful pigments, um, that, uh, account for the benefits for cognitive function, uh, decreasing inflammation, improving blood sugar control, artery function cholesterol, though they do get cleared from our, uh, system, uh, within about six hours. So ideally we would have berries at every meal make the perfect dessert or drink hibiscus tea, the, that ruby red colors from the same kind of antho and pigments that are savory sources as well.

Dr. Greger (00:52:08):

Purple or red cabbage, purple, sweet potatoes, get anthocyanins in, uh, multiple times a day to get protection kind of all day long. So, uh, those would probably be my top three choices. Greens, beans and bear. Oh, I didn't get to greens. Dark green, leafy vegetables, um, uh, uh, are the vegetable most associated with a longer lifespan? The nitrates in greens actually improve age-related declines in artery function. And the slow are metabolic rate and the sulphate and cruciferous vegetables, broccoli or cabbage. Family vegetables can improve immune function and boost the detox enzymes in our liver and in airways. So, beans, greens, berries, and nuts. I, there's four. I can keep going.

Moby (00:52:53):

Well, you didn't touch on the alliums and I know I've read some things. Oh yeah. That alliums have pretty remarkable health good stuff, properties.

Dr. Greger (00:53:02):

Oh, it's so true, right? Allium family. Vegetables are garlic, onion scallion, family vegetables in terms of decreased risk of cancer, um, in terms of anti-inflammatory effects. Absolutely. That's includes some alliums. Uh, let's do some ground flax seeds, some turmeric. Oh my god. So many good things to include on our daily diet. If only there was a list. Some kind of daily dozen checklist of all the healthiest of healthy foods to include one's daily routine available as a free app. Dr. Greger's Daily Dozen.

Lindsay (00:53:31):

Ooh.

Moby (00:53:31):

So just to be clear, when you said if only there was a list, you were being facetious because, because you have an app. Is that list <laugh>?

Lindsay (00:53:39):

There's an app where you can check your list off.

Dr. Greger (00:53:42):

Dr. Greger's Daily Dozen available on iPhone, Android. Get it now.

Lindsay (00:53:46):

<laugh>. I'm gonna get it right now. Also, can I comment on one thing that I think is really lovely? I, we've done, we've done many of these podcasts. Not as many remote, but a, a good handful. You're standing right now, aren't you?

Dr. Greger (00:53:58):

I am standing. I wish I was walking. I'm actually on my treadmill, but I have it off just so I don't make beach motion. Sick

Lindsay (00:54:05):

<laugh>. So I was just gonna say, you're the first person who's ever stood for this. Usually people sit, I think it's

Dr. Greger (00:54:10):

Amazing reason. Oh, sit, prolong sitting's. Not good for you.

Moby (00:54:12):

Um, I remember one time I was in New York at a meeting of the farm animal funders, which is this, you know, philanthropic organization I'm a part of. And you were on a Zoom or some, some sort of video call. You had joined our meeting and I couldn't figure out what was going on because the entire time you were moving and smiling <laugh>. And every time I looked at the screen, even when you weren't talking, you were moving and smiling. And I was like, what, what, what's Dr. Greger doing? What, how is he like? And then I read something about how, yeah, you have your, your treadmill and you get about four miles a day on your treadmill while you're working.

Dr. Greger (00:54:46):

14, 14 miles a day. 14.

Moby (00:54:48):

Okay.

Dr. Greger (00:54:49):

It's not cocaine. I am actually moving back and forth. Yes, <laugh>.

Lindsay (00:54:53):

That's, that's amazing. So, so that is part of your exercise regimen is just because you are on these things all the time, you just stay moving while you're doing your day. Well,

Dr. Greger (00:55:03):

I, we, I used to, I used to do all my interviews, uh, walking, but I, I got complaints that, uh, that I was making people car sick. So, uh, <laugh>, I, uh, so now I'm standing, now I'm standing, which is better than prolong sitting, but, but it still doesn't really get my heart rate up. So it's really walking slow, two to three miles a day. It's basically just not being inactive. This apartment I have near the airport here at National and in DC uh, 18th floor, so I can jog up the 18 flights every day. That gets my heart rate up. Um, and so I'm able to take better care of myself. But in the airplane most of the day it's, uh, you know, it's hopeless. Hopeless.

Moby (00:55:37):

Um, what else? So exercise wise, what else? Like, in a perfect world, like if you had your, like, ideal day and the weather's nice and you can go outside, exercise wise, what would you be doing?

Dr. Greger (00:55:47):

As long as I can get, uh, keep, uh, getting work done, unfortunately, that's the, that's the problem. So, uh, as long as I can, uh, I'm stable enough to continue to type on my laptop, that's my ideal exercise.

Moby (00:55:59):

Okay. So, so we need to invent some sort of magical thing where you can go like hiking and canoeing and have wifi connectivity and maybe like a magical laptop, like a haptic system where you wear these little gloves and fancy Google glasses.

Dr. Greger (00:56:16):

Let's do it. Let's do it. Sign me up. Sign me up.

Moby (00:56:20):

I'll, I'll have that ready for you by, we'll work on that over the weekend, on Monday. We'll have that all set up for you so you can exercise and stay connected. Love

Dr. Greger (00:56:27):

It. I love it. Yes. I do not get out much.

Lindsay (00:56:29):

<laugh>. Um, can we, can we talk, start talking about the books that you've written and what is out, what people can find and start reading? 'cause you've done so much.

Dr. Greger (00:56:42):

Um, well, kind of the original series, How Not To Die sold over a million copies. Uh, um, uh, is, uh, uh, two sections. First section, 15 chapters, each of the 15 leading Cause of Death. That's just talking about the role diet may play in preventing, arresting and reversing each of our top 15 killers, but didn't just want it to be a reference book. Wanted to be a practical day-to-day grocery store kind of guide. And so that's why the second half of the book centers my recommendations around this daily dozen checklist of all the healthiest of healthy foods and habits I encourage people to fit into their daily routine. Then came How Not To Diet, talking about, um, all the things that been shown to accelerate the loss of, uh, body fat, um, and the healthiest diet, uh, um, uh, that's, uh, that's been shown to be most effective. Um, and thankfully the healthiest diet also, uh, happens to be the most effective diet ever in the, uh, peer reviewed medical literature, a diet centered around whole plant foods in terms of accelerating weight loss. Um, and then, uh, How Not To Age, the third in the series talking about, uh, the world diet and lifestyle can play in, um, slowing down aging and improving health and longevity.

Moby (00:57:49):

And what's next in terms of books?

Dr. Greger (00:57:50):

Oh, so next is cancer. Um, uh, I'm gonna take on cancer, although I just sent the, um, the proposal to the publisher and they're not happy about it. They actually thought it was like too nichey. Like they didn't think enough people would be interested. I'm like, "yeah, cancer, that exotic disease. No one's ever heard about" <laugh>. They just seem so, but they just, they want a broader, like, you know. I know. I dunno. We'll, we, we'll figure it out.

Moby (00:58:17):

Okay. So regarding publishers, I was wondering, I remember when our friend Miyun told me about how Not to Die, and I think I got a very early copy of it and I loved it. I mean, I've bought copies and sent it around it, you know, as I'm sure that's why over a million copies have been sold. Not saying, of course I had a hand in it, but I'm just like, my enthusiasm clearly was shared by a lot of people. But I remember thinking to myself, when you went to the publisher and you presented the title to them, how did they respond? Oh, they

Dr. Greger (00:58:45):

Loved it. Really? Oh my God. They hated it up. Although, it's funny, I didn't come up with the title. I did not come up with the title. Um, the person who ghost wrote the South Beach Diet came up with the title and Yes, uh, so they came up with the title, then I promptly fired them, kept the title. And that's <laugh>, that's all history, because

Moby (00:59:03):

It just seems so per, I mean, like, it's such a remarkable title. I mean, I can imagine the publisher either saying, absolutely not. There's no way we can go with that title. It's way too challenging and confrontational, but boy oh boy, does it stand out on the shelf? Like, you know, there's Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's no nuance or subtlety to it. It so kudos to you for having the courage of your publishing convictions there,

Dr. Greger (00:59:26):

You know. Well, it's funny what, my pandemic book was gonna be How Not To Die in a Pandemic, but they were like, oh, this is too morose. No one wants to read a How Not To Die in a Pandemic during a pandemic. So they changed it to How To Survive a Pandemic. So, I don't know. So the original, the next book was gonna be How Not To Die From Cancer. Again, they think tumors is just not gonna, so maybe it'll be something like, you know, Eating To Starve The Cancer, something more positive, proactive, who knows

Moby (00:59:50):

How about How To Kill Cancer?

Dr. Greger (00:59:52):

How To Kill Cancer, How To Kill Cancer. All right. I know it gets strong. The royalty checks will be coming your way.

Moby (01:00:00):

<laugh> now you can use them to, uh, send them to, to uh, nutrition facts.org.

Dr. Greger (01:00:05):

Excellent. All right. Even better.

Moby (01:00:07):

Um, so speaking, Lindsay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take one, I have one more question, even I know it's your turn. Um, is

Dr. Greger (01:00:14):

I, I actually think it's your turn.

Moby (01:00:16):

Okay. So, so regarding the pandemic, this was really interesting. When the pandemic had started, I was still on Twitter before Elon bought it, and I posted something about how, and this is, I I'm almost hesitant to say it because you can get in so much trouble for saying this, but I posted something saying, well, pandemics are almost exclusively zoonotic. So therefore, in a vegan world, the incidence of pandemics will either disappear or be reduced greatly. And it's the only time I ever had a tweet flagged, and I got crucified for this

Dr. Greger (01:00:56):

Interest.

Moby (01:00:57):

And I was like, but, but the, like, uh, what's the ideolog? The, you know, epidemiologically, I believe pandemics are zoonotic and

Dr. Greger (01:01:06):

They are indeed. That's where pandemics come from. Yeah.

Moby (01:01:09):

And, and so in a world where animals were not used for human purposes and we respected and protected animal habitats, it just seemed like basic science, like there would be fewer pandemics. Um, have you found any pushback when you've maybe addressed that issue?

Dr. Greger (01:01:30):

No, I, it's non-controversial, at least in the scientific literature. I mean, all of our historical, uh, pandemics and current pandemic, um, uh, pandemics are all, um, zoonotic disease animal to human diseases, tuberculosis, for example, it's not to been through, acquired through the domestication of goats. Measles also jumped from goats or sheep. Smallpox seems to have been a result of camel domestication. We domesticated pigs and got whooping cough chickens and got typhoid fever ducks and got influenza leprosy came from water buffalo, the cold virus from cattle or horses. And how often did wild horses have the opportunity to sleaze to sneeze into humanity's collective face until they're broken bridled, right? Mm-Hmm, <affirmative> before then, the common cold was presumably only common to them.

Moby (01:02:18):

Okay, so, so I should, my, my tweet should not have been flagged, and I even got attacked byed by, I even got attacked by doctors because they were assuming, what I was saying was, if everyone ate a vegan diet, we wouldn't have pandemics. And I was like, oh, come on. Like, like, no, I might be stupid, but I'm not that stupid. What I was saying was that yes, what you just said more eloquently and in great more detail, pandemics are zoonotic, you know,

Dr. Greger (01:02:45):

And well, although, although actually, I mean, we now have data showing that those even plant-based significantly lower risk of both getting CO and dying from covid and suffering a severe course of covid, even after controlling for, uh, comorbidities. It's not just because those eating and plant-based diets have lower rates of diabetes and heart disease and obesity, et cetera, independent of those factors, those eating healthier, significantly less likely to get, um, uh, and, uh, and suffer from serious disease from, uh, COVID-19,

Moby (01:03:14):

Which is a, I mean, i, I, and again, who knows, maybe I'll get covid tomorrow and be dead next week, but it's been a couple of years and I've been exposed to it multiple times. I never got it.

Dr. Greger (01:03:27):

And let us, let us all pray that that will be, continue

Moby (01:03:31):

To be the case. Yeah. I mean, that's the worst thing I could possibly say. 'cause clearly I'm gonna walk out tomorrow and a pianos is gonna fall in my head, and the universe is gonna mean go

Dr. Greger (01:03:39):

Around looking doorknobs. Yeah.

Moby (01:03:41):

Um, okay, Lin, and by the way, we should, we should let you go 'cause we're doing this on a Friday. You've been, you've done 600 interviews today and you're on a speaking tour of 15,000 places, so we should let you go soon so you can enjoy your weekend. Um, but Lynn, do you wanna ask, I I have one last question at some point, but Lynn, do you want to ask something?

Lindsay (01:04:03):

I have one. I have one remaining well, one and a half remaining questions. But I'll start with the whole, the one whole question, which is what I, I have noticed that many doctors do not include nutrition in their approach to healthcare. Why do you think that is?

Dr. Greger (01:04:24):

Oh, well, they simply haven't been told, haven't been taught. I mean, so doctors have a severe nutrition deficiency in education. Most doctors never taught about the power, um, that, uh, of, uh, health eating can have in reversing chronic disease. Um, and so they graduate without this powerful tool in their medical toolbox. Uh, of course, there's also institutional barriers such as time constraints and reimbursement. Typically, doctors aren't paid for telling people how to take better care of themselves. Uh, big pharma also play roles in, in, in, uh, you know, uh, paying for, uh, medical education and practice. You can ask their doctor, when's the last time they're taken out to dinner by big broccoli? It's probably been a while. <laugh>,

Lindsay (01:05:04):

<laugh>. Um, yeah, that's, that's always something that I feel is, is so terribly lacking. Do you think that there's, there's a world in which that changes at some

Dr. Greger (01:05:16):

Point? Oh, it has been changing. In fact, one of the fastest growing specialties in the United States is lifestyle medicine, which uses as a foundational pillar, whole food plant-based nutrition, um, to not just prevent arrest, but even reverse, um, lifestyle disease. Um, and so, and there's, uh, you know, lifestyle medicine clubs and medical schools across the country, and there's been a big push look at what's happening in New York City. All 11 public hospitals in New York City as default for lunch and dinner have plant-based, um, uh, have plant-based meals, not as options, but as the default meals. Imagine healthy food in a hospital. Absolutely. Mind blowing

Moby (01:05:56):

<laugh>. Um, so before we let you go, one question I really wanted to ask is, you've alluded to some people who I think you've either learned from or been inspired by. You mentioned Pritikin, which I, I, is pritikin a person?

Dr. Greger (01:06:12):

<laugh> Nathan Pritikin,

Moby (01:06:13):

Of course. Okay, good. So Pritikin's a person you mentioned Dean Ornish, you alluded to Dan Butner in the Blue Zones. Uh, you mentioned T. Colin Campbell. Um, yeah. Are there other people you've been inspired by or books that you've, like, for example, my turning point was Diet For A New America by John Robbins. Um, Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So just people you've been inspired by, or books or any other things that you've been inspired by?

Dr. Greger (01:06:41):

Um, the greatest, uh, uh, professional inspiration in my life has been Professor Noam Chomsky. Um, uh, former professor of, uh, linguistics at MIT, um, who was able to bring together both this brilliant, um, academic career combined with this, uh, uh, putting his brilliant mind to use and making the world a better place. Something that I always aspired to do. Turns out not everyone can be Noam Chomsky. And so, uh, <laugh>, I'm unable to do both. So just settled on the Make the world a better place, uh, rather than, uh, completely upending entire fields of study, <laugh> <laugh>. Um, and then, uh, I think, uh, the most, uh, single most influential piece of writing I've ever, um, read in my life was, uh, this, uh, Australian philosopher Peter Singer wrote a seminal article called Famine, affluence and Morality. Um, and after reading that article, which is available free online, absolutely changed my life, if you do not want your life changed, do not read that article.

Moby (01:07:43):

Feminine Affluence and Morality. I mean, Peter Singer, obviously, in my mind, he's in the Pantheon with like those, uh, like Tolstoy and like, he's, he's, 'cause he wrote Animal Liberation, which was the first time I ever heard about that, that concept. Like, I'm, me and our friend once drove with him up to Farm Sanctuary in Watkins Glen, and I was in Tim, I was like, how do you even share space with Peter Singer? Like, he's like, our, like the closest thing the vegans or the, you know, we have two A demigod. And she was like, no, he's an Australian academic, he's not a demigod. And I was like, but still, I would be so tongue tied.

Lindsay (01:08:23):

He's a bit The Beatles. He's one of the Beatles of, of the vegan world.

Dr. Greger (01:08:27):

There we go. There we go. <laugh>.

Moby (01:08:31):

And then lastly, just what, okay, so you mentioned How to kill Cancer as, as the book that's coming up. What else are you working on that you want people including us to know about?

Dr. Greger (01:08:45):

Oh, well, I'm coming out with a 10th anniversary edition of How Not to Die, uh, in 2025. This would be the 10 year anniversary. So I'm gonna do some updating, uh, looking forward to that. And of course, uh, I'm, uh, have to do, uh, you know, four years worth of videos for nutrition facts.org, so I have time to sit down and write the next book. So I have a busy schedule ahead. Oh, thinking of doing an, uh, Asia Australia tour actually for the first time, uh, next year. Looking forward to that. Um, uh, but, uh, yeah, looking forward to not traveling as much and, uh, being home with my pillow,

Moby (01:09:18):

<laugh>

Speaker 5 (01:09:19):

<laugh>,

Moby (01:09:20):

Lynn, any, any, any parting thoughts?

Lindsay (01:09:23):

Yeah, I wanna, I have to know about this pillow that you, I mean, I'm imagining a ginormous pillow that is not portable. You cannot put it in a suitcase. Oh, it's, what is it? It's a magical pillow. Is that real

Dr. Greger (01:09:35):

Shredded, uh, memory foam? It's just perfect <laugh>. Oh my God. Um, no. Well, yeah, it's, it's too big. Well, I have to travel carry on only. Um, and so it's like I'm weeks on the road and packing space is so critically tight and just can't fit. I do actually have a travel pillow. Um, it's just not as good <laugh>, you know, if I end up in some situation where I just, it's absolutely some terrible options where it's all, you know, feather pillows or some, you know, uh, god awful thing like that. Um, but, uh, yeah, yeah. Uh, yeah, when I get home, oh, and, you know, just to have dark and cool and like all this kind of sleep hygiene stuff that you just can never get on the road. It's such a, such a, such a

Moby (01:10:17):

Pleasure. Amen to that. Um, well, we'll let you go because it's Friday and you clearly need to spend some quality time with your pillow, <laugh>

Speaker 5 (01:10:26):

<laugh>,

Moby (01:10:27):

As I understand. Like, I have my pillow and boy do too big to bring on tour and it just waits for me at home.

Dr. Greger (01:10:34):

That's right, that's

Moby (01:10:35):

Right. Quiet and loving and, you know, uh, so have a wonderful weekend. And I just wanna say it's been really wonderful getting to know you over the last few years, and you are for I Lindsay I'll speak for both of us. Like such an inspiration and such a hero to us. You're, you're making the world a better place and you're saving human lives and animal lives and the planet's life. So thank you very much.

Dr. Greger (01:10:59):

Absolutely. Such an honor to help. Thanks so much for having me on and keep up the good work.

Moby (01:11:16):

So that was our conversation with Dr. Michael Greger, by the way, why Okay. If someone has been listening and watching, how dumb am I to say? That was our conversation with Michael Greger. Like,

Lindsay (01:11:26):

So I think so that they know that we're summing it up now. Okay. So,

Moby (01:11:29):

You know,

Lindsay (01:11:29):

We've moved on to a new part. This is the final chapter, the conclusion. But

Moby (01:11:33):

It does feel so dumb and self-evident for me to say. Like, that was our conversation with the person we've just been talking to for 90 minutes. Like, you

Lindsay (01:11:40):

Can't just de nu noir, you know what I mean? You gotta announce that

Moby (01:11:43):

If I was cool, I could de nu noir, the verb. I'd just be like, yeah, I was, that was some pretty great talking. We just had Well,

Lindsay (01:11:50):

You just did it kind of

Moby (01:11:52):

<laugh>. Yeah. I, no, trust me. Whatever discomfort you're feeling, I feel it so much more <laugh>.

Lindsay (01:11:58):

Um, anyway, I hope that everyone listening enjoyed that conversation as much as we did. I think that he's a fascinating figure. So smart, so driven. His books are amazing. Get them, read them. And if you didn't know about him before, I'm so glad that you do now because he's a, he's a special figure Yeah. In

Moby (01:12:16):

The world. Um, do you wanna say thanks to the people we should say thank you to? Well,

Lindsay (01:12:20):

Yes, I do. First of all, I wanna say thank you to Dr. Michael Greger for getting on the phone with us. I also wanna say thank you to Mike Formanski who's editing this video, and thank you to Jonathan Nesvadba, who is doing all of the editing for this and every Moby Pod podcast, I wanna say thank you to Bagel for emotionally supporting our entire operation here at Little Walnut. And I wanna say thank you to Human Content and who gets this, this podcast

Moby (01:12:44):

Now. And thanks to everybody watching and listening. And the very last thing I'll say for the people who've not turned off next week and the, in two weeks and the two weeks after that, we have some very special episodes coming up. So

Lindsay (01:12:59):

Buckle up kiddos

Moby (01:13:00):

Really involving, so I mean, like, I don't even want, I don't wanna say what it's, 'cause it's the two very big, I mean, we produced the, the heck out of these next two episodes. Heck, what do you, you mad Sure.

Lindsay (01:13:14):

No, no, I like that. I think it's very

Moby (01:13:16):

Pg. Is that my Tourette's kicking in again? Sure. Maybe.

Lindsay (01:13:18):

Yeah. Yeah. I hope that you will join us for those. 'cause I feel very excited about them. And Moby has a lot of treats in store for you

Moby (01:13:26):

Two weeks from now and then two weeks from, well, four, two weeks and four weeks from now.

Lindsay (01:13:31):

Yep. And also, if you're still listening, that means that you're a real one. And I would love it if you would like, comment, subscribe to the podcast because it actually really helps us so that when people look, they say, oh, other people like this, maybe I will too. And that's nice.

Moby (01:13:47):

Okay. So we'll see you in two weeks and we'll talk to you in two weeks.