Moby (00:00:09):

So on today's podcast, we're talking to one of our favorite, most interesting vegan animal rights activist. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> Renee, rowdy girl from the Rowdy Girl Sanctuary. And her story is so interesting as we'll find out, because she was a rancher and she's Texan just like you. And I guess bagel by association. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And she was a country western singer. And then she had this epiphany where she realized like, oh, I love animals. I don't want to be involved in killing them. And she converted her husband, Tommy, from being a cattle rancher who killed cows to becoming a Daoist vegan.

Lindsay (00:00:46):

I've been so inspired by Renee for such a long time.

Moby (00:00:49):

Hold on, hold that thought. 'cause we have something else we need to talk about right away. I, I apologize for interrupting. No, please. Just blame, blame the patriarchy and my Asperger's.

Lindsay (00:00:57):

Your thing feels urgent, so I need you to get it off your chest.

Moby (00:00:59):

It's pretty, is the majority of people listening to us right now are listening only, which is great. We appreciate that. But the people who are watching us on say the YouTubes, they might notice that you, me, and bagel, are all wearing cowboy hats.

Lindsay (00:01:13):

That's to honor Renee and her Texan lifestyle

Moby (00:01:16):

And your Texan lifestyle.

Lindsay (00:01:17):

And my Texan lifestyle, though I do have to say, you think that people in Texas are gonna wear cowboy hats a lot more than they actually do.

Moby (00:01:24):

Maybe it's more like a Wyoming thing. 'cause I watch the TV show Outer Range, and they all wear cowboy hats. That's

Lindsay (00:01:29):

Tv. I think when you're actually there, there's far, the, the cowboy hats are much less of a thing than you think they're gonna be.

Moby (00:01:34):

Okay. And also of profound importance, the cowboy hats that you, me and bagel are wearing are vegan cowboy hats. So someone's looking at this, they're like, you hypocrites, you're wearing leather cowboy hats. It's like, no, we are not, we are wearing felt and cotton and bagels looking at me in her little cowboy hat. And it's the single cutest thing I've ever seen. Like, she looks like a mean gun slinger. Well,

Lindsay (00:01:54):

She is. Yeah. If bagel had a gun, she would sling it. Yeah.

Moby (00:01:58):

So, okay. So sorry for my interruption. I just wanted to give the little qualifying statement about our vegan cowboy hats in honor of the fact that you as a Texan are about to interview a fellow Texan. Yes.

Lindsay (00:02:10):

And I do have to shout out my brother for getting me the hat that you are wearing. He went to great lengths to make sure that he got me a vegan cowboy hat. And apparently there's a really growing, a big growing market for vegan cowboy hats. So, love that.

Moby (00:02:23):

Well, I learned something on the tour that we did recently, is we walked off stage and came back to do an encore. And on the way to do the encore, our violinist, Andrea had a cowboy hat backstage. And I was like, we're gonna play a Johnny Cash song. So let me put on the cowboy hat. And she said, by the way, it's a vegan cowboy hat made out of cactus. Which seems so great because cacti are in the desert, and cowboys are in the desert. Like, it just, it

Lindsay (00:02:49):

Makes perfect sense. So,

Moby (00:02:50):

Okay.

Lindsay (00:02:51):

Start right at the source.

Moby (00:02:52):

So there's our spiel about the cowboy hats, um, and you were gonna talk more about Renee, et cetera. I

Lindsay (00:02:57):

Was, I just want to give you a sense of what we're gonna talk about, because it's not just what she has done that we're gonna talk about. We're also gonna talk about how she got here, what she came from. Renee was a country singer. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. She's such a fascinating person who lives her life so loudly loud in a good way. In, in the best way, in the kind of, obviously yes, there's a little bit of Texas, yeehaw, but there's also that like deep fiery activist in her. And she doesn't stop. She has more energy than almost anyone I've ever met. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And she, to me, gives hope to a movement, because if you can create a successful animal sanctuary out of a cattle farm Yeah. In the middle of Texas, I think that there's, it, it, it's a good sign. It's a great sign.

Moby (00:03:46):

And two other things. One, we helped produce a movie about Renee Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, uh, that our friend Jason made. It's called Rowdy Girl,

Lindsay (00:03:54):

Jason Goldman. Um, and he directed it. And it's, it's great. If you get a chance to see it, please go see

Moby (00:04:00):

It. It's very, very special. Uh, especially like her doing Daoist meditations with the rescued cows. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> is priceless. And the other thing is unrelated to this episode, I'm gonna tease our next episode. Ooh.

Lindsay (00:04:14):

Okay.

Moby (00:04:15):

So our next two episodes after this one are very special. A few months ago, you and I and many of our friends did a live acoustic show at the Hollywood Forever Cemetery. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And during the show, we talked about the story of the album play. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so the first episode is basically everything that led up to the album play. And then the second episode is everything that came after the release of the album play, but interspersed with acoustic versions of all sorts of songs and featuring Lady Blackbird and all the people I was on tour with. So it's, it's hard to describe how elaborate and special these episodes are.

Lindsay (00:04:54):

We really get a chance to go in depth in these episodes. And the music is so great, and the venue where we recorded this is so cool. And there's a live audience there, so you get to like, feel the energy of the people there. They're really fun. So I hope you guys come back and talk

Moby (00:05:07):

Time. And that'll be two weeks from now and then two weeks from then also, I've never heard you speak with like a, a thick Texan accent. Can you do that?

Lindsay (00:05:15):

Well, here's the thing. When I went to school in, um, in college,

Moby (00:05:19):

You lost your regional accent.

Lindsay (00:05:21):

Well, yes. I had to work very, very hard to develop a non regional dialect. And so when I would tell people that I was from Texas when I moved to New York, they were like, why do you light? Because I didn't have a

Moby (00:05:32):

Tex. But you still, you can do it, can't you?

Lindsay (00:05:33):

Kind of, but now, but not like,

Moby (00:05:34):

But you and I, but we just went to the store. So tell me about going to the store, but then Texan.

Lindsay (00:05:37):

No, because I feel like I'm gonna be doing a caricature of my old self, and it's not real. But here's when you hear, you might actually hear it in this episode because sometimes when I'm talking to Texans, it comes out a little bit. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But it's really, when I'm talking to somebody who also has the accent, I really fall back into it.

Moby (00:05:50):

Can you hear the, because for me, I hate to say this, I'm gonna sound so ignorant, I can't really hear the difference between like a Texan accent or like a Florida Panhandle accent or a South Carolina accent. Like, to me, southern accents in my Yankee ignorance all kind of sound the same to me. Can, and I'm sure someone listening right now is just furious with me for saying that. But I'm, I'm throwing myself under the bus. I didn't grow up in the south. I can't really hear the difference. Can you?

Lindsay (00:06:15):

I can hear the difference. The Texas accent is a little bit more like clipped a little bit shorter. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you don't have to take much time to talk about things. Okay. They're a little faster. I like that. Uh, but the Georgia, like, the, like deep south accent is a little bit slower.

Moby (00:06:26):

A little bit slower. Yeah. Like, like they take a, we're going down more time. We're going down to Piggly Wiggly and go to the waffle hood and get ourselves a waffles.

Lindsay (00:06:34):

Go down on the Kroger's, get a sushi

Renee (00:06:36):

<laugh>

Moby (00:06:36):

<laugh>. Nothing says deep south Texan, like getting sushi at the Kroger's

Lindsay (00:06:42):

<laugh>.

Moby (00:06:43):

Okay. So enough of this, uh, let's go talk to Renee. Okay,

Lindsay (00:06:46):

Great. Yay.

Moby (00:06:58):

Thanks for coming over to the glamorous world of Moby Pod. Yay. And this is a tricky conversation to have because Lindsay and I, you know, we help produce the documentary about you.

Lindsay (00:07:10):

Rowdy girl.

Moby (00:07:11):

Rowdy girl. So we know a lot about you.

Lindsay (00:07:14):

It feels almost like cheating because it's like we've gotten to do double, triple research

Moby (00:07:19):

And it's also a little modern <laugh>. It's sort of postmodern because we don't actually know you very well. Like, we've been in each other's presence physically a grand total of like five minutes. I know. But we've watched the movie multiple times and, and

Lindsay (00:07:32):

I've also followed you on social media Yeah. For years and years.

Moby (00:07:35):

So we're gonna, we're gonna pre, I'm gonna pretend to be more ignorant than I am

Renee (00:07:39):

<laugh>

Moby (00:07:40):

And start, I'm

Lindsay (00:07:41):

Gonna remain just as ignorant as I ever was.

Moby (00:07:44):

No, you're not ignorant. No. But not

Lindsay (00:07:45):

Of you. I actually know so much about you and I, and I love it. And that's what makes me so excited to have you here, because I feel like this is such a wonderful opportunity just for me personally, to get to know you better, because I feel like the work you do is so powerful. And getting to reverse engineer what makes a human who functions the way that you do tick, I think is a real, it's a real pleasure. So I'm very excited to chat. Oh

Renee (00:08:08):

Boy. I love that. Reverse engineering. All right,

Moby (00:08:10):

<laugh>. And, and, um, so, but what I like to do when we talk to people, even if we know them relatively well, is start at the beginning knowing people's origin stories. You know, like we, we talked to, uh, Michael Gregor recently, and I realized I didn't know anything about him. Even his Wikipedia, basically, it's like he was invented at age 42 <laugh>. Like, there's no information before that. So it's a weird question, but based on what you said last night, if you're comfortable, talk about how you were conceived even.

Renee (00:08:38):

Yeah. Thank you for that, that question. The reason I've gotten comfortable talking about it is because KIPP Anderson has helped me really get to the origin story.

Moby (00:08:49):

Kipp, who's involved in Cspi? What the hell? Cow, cow,

Renee (00:08:53):

Christ,

Moby (00:08:54):

Christy. All sorts of Piracies. Yeah.

Renee (00:08:56):

Prolific documentarian. He really, the conspiracy guru. <laugh> <laugh>. Anyway, he told me years ago when I first met him, he's on our board and he asked me, we were sitting in a little vegan cafe here in, uh, LA and he said, Renee, one of these days I want to be producing a epic film on your story. He said, I just see one day that it's gonna happen. He was projecting it. This was in the very beginning. He said, but first you gotta write the book. He said, but I want you to tell me how your story begins. And I said, you mean like this sanctuary? He was like, no, no, no, no, no. I wanna know what kind of person does what you did. Hmm. Just like you just asked me. It's so interesting that question. So I told him, and I'll tell you, my story starts in a graveyard.

Renee (00:09:42):

And, um, I didn't find this out until many years ago, but when I found out I was shocked. My mother was raped by my father in a graveyard where my father's first wife, Barbara, was. She had just been laid to rest there just a few months prior. She had shot herself in the head close range. She committed suicide. And, uh, that's where she was buried. And my daddy had two children with her, two little boys. And my father was 29. She was 16. And he took her there to get the whole story. You'll have to read the book, but he took her there because he was a close friend of the families. So he was trusted. He remembered seeing my mother, like at the piano and stuff when they were kids. And he hadn't been there in a while. And Barbara had passed away. And several years later he goes to see my grandmother. And my mother was 16 voluptuous. And he took advantage of her. Anyway, long story short is he raped her at that graveyard. And I was conceived. My mother married him 16, he's 29. And there was never any love there. So I grew up fighting. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I grew up, my daddy was very violent, and he was an extreme alcoholic. Very, very mean. He beat her, uh, almost every single day.

Moby (00:11:07):

And you were the eldest of three,

Renee (00:11:08):

Correct? I was the eldest of three. And I came out fighting.

Moby (00:11:10):

But also, I mean, I don't want to be psychology 1 0 1, but for example, like my origin stories, I, I grew up with a lot of trauma and violence and chaos and confusion. The only stability when I was growing up was animals. Mm. So it's not surprising for me when I deconstruct my origin that I've dedicated my life to animals because they were the safe, predictable aspect of my existence. Humans were terrifying and animals were safe. But I'm wondering in your case, like you had two younger brothers. No, the two, you had two younger

Renee (00:11:44):

Siblings. Oh, I had a younger brother and a younger sister. Younger

Moby (00:11:46):

Brother and younger sister. And you were tasked, I imagine, with taking care of them. What, and I'm just thinking not to jump ahead, but like years later, your, your day job now is taking care of like, younger, innocent beings. So it's sort of like, if, if KIPP or someone is writing your story, it definitely seems like some foreshadowing Mm-Hmm. Like, you at age 10 taking care of these young innocence. And then fast forward to now where you're taking care of young innocence.

Renee (00:12:17):

Well, it's interesting. You know what really, what, what really happened? Yeah. I cared for my brother and sister begrudgingly. I was very mad. The one I really cared for the most was my mother. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. My mother was a, a child, having a child. I mean, she was 16 and she was, she was very innocent. And she married, uh, a perpetrator basically. And I was always defending my mother against him and my siblings against my daddy's violence. He would come home drunk all the time, violently blackout drunk and beat my mother to a pulp. It was, it was a common everyday occurrence for him to come home and beat her. And I was the one that protected her. I remember at eight years old, it's a memory I have very vividly of almost killing my dad with a butcher knife. 'cause he was killing her. He had her strangled on the ground.

Renee (00:13:04):

She was turning red. I mean, her eyes were bulging out. And I don't know what my 8-year-old brain was thinking, but I went into the, the kitchen grabbed a butcher knife. The biggest one I still remember. That butcher knife, the feel of it. The look of it. And I was headlong going into his back. And my mother somehow got some sort of sanity. Hmm. Kicked me. The knife went flying my, just enough of a moment for everybody to realize, you know, the trance had been broken. And, uh, so I almost killed my dad. And I was al my, my mother was always calling the cops down. They were right down the street. Officer Harwell used to come down to the house all the time to take my daddy to jail. And my mother would always go and get him out. And I hated that. I was not scared.

Renee (00:13:46):

I was fierce. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I fiercely defended my mother. I remember jumping off of a bed when he was strangling her in front of me and had her hair pulled back onto him and pushed him in a toy box. It was a blue toy box with a little lamb on it. And his butt went in it. He had his trousers on his little shorts. And, uh, just enough for me to say, mama, mama, mama call the police. And he couldn't get up. And so, you know, this was happening. This was common day. Uh, common everyday occurrence at our

Moby (00:14:13):

Home. Oh. Are your parents still alive?

Renee (00:14:15):

My mother is. Okay. My father passed away, um, you know, due to alcoholism.

Moby (00:14:19):

And where, where does she live now?

Renee (00:14:21):

My mother, she lives in Alvin, Texas. And my father, you know, God rest his soul, um, never got sober. And I did write a song, um, years ago. It was called The Bottom of the Glass. All about that, all about him. And he got to hear that before he died. Wow.

Lindsay (00:14:38):

Yeah. What happened with your parents' relationship as you were getting older? Did they stayed? They split up,

Renee (00:14:45):

Right? Yeah. When I was, when I was 10, the last thing that happened, uh, whenever they finally split up, you know, violence is a trance. It's so normalized in our society. I mean, you know, we really see it with our an with animal agriculture and how it's normalized. But what I also saw is, you know, violence is normalized in families. It's like normal Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> to have, you know, beatings every day and cops coming and picking up your mama and going to, you know, going to jail and coming back and doing it all over again. And so when I was 10, uh, my mother had taken us to see Swiss Family Robinson. And I remember coming back. We were all so happy. It was me and my brother, my sister, Randy and Jody. And we came home. We were, you know, I loved the movie. And all of a sudden, you know, there was chaos.

Renee (00:15:30):

My daddy was speaking in Spanish. He's full of blood. I'm half Hispanic. Uh, he was speaking back there in the back room, and next thing you know, there's a big fight. And it was a huge fight. It was one of the biggest fights that I'd ever witnessed. It was horrible. The blood, it was horrible. The her face, the, the way she looked, the mangled look. And she would just be defenseless. She would never fight back. And it me. The, I don't know if I can say cuss words, if you wanna, if you wanna say you the off by all me. Yeah. That's what I, it me as a young child. I was the off. Yeah. You know, that she didn't fight back. And so she, she came to me and she said, shaken like this. Um, well prior to that, my daddy came in and said he was going to, he kept hitting her in front of us and he said to take a good look.

Renee (00:16:20):

'cause we would never see my mother again. And he left with my mother. We had a pawn shop. Of course, they sold lots of guns. And he took her to the pawn shop and seemed like forever I thought I'd never see him again. And I was there with my brother and sister, and they were crying. I was in a trance. I don't know, just like, I don't know what I was doing, honestly. It was, I'm, I kind of blacked out myself. But they came back and he went to the back room jabbering in Spanish again. And my mother came to me. I didn't even recognize her. And she had on a white shirt full of blood, black and white hounds, tooth pants short, like pedal pushers, black shoes. And she was just shaking me like this. And she said, Renee, I've gotta leave. Your daddy's gonna kill me.

Renee (00:17:01):

And she, later, I later found out she left. She jumped, I don't know, 10 or so chain, link fences to get away. And she later told me that he shot up the pawn shop. He was gonna kill her then kill himself. And that didn't happen. He shot up the pawn shop instead came home. And all I know is that, uh, they soon divorced after all that. Finally she had to get a restraining order on him because he kept coming to the house with his car being rifles. He would sit in his chair, even though he had a restraining order on him. And he would sit there with these rifles. Like this was his chair, his house. And so eventually he got put in a Insane Asylum. He was in a Insane Asylum for nine months. And were there, were there animals around? I always had animals. Animals too were my saving grace. You know, I had, um, a, a cat. I called mama cat. And I had checkers. I had ginger and, um, always, uh, was having little funerals for dirt dauber. You know, when dirt dauber would die, I would have so

Moby (00:18:04):

As a, as an ignorant Yankee. Um, do you know what Lindsay, do you know what a dirt dauber is?

Lindsay (00:18:09):

<laugh> a dirt dauber is like the wasp, right? Yeah. Yeah. They make these like big mud.

Moby (00:18:16):

You funeral for wasps, like, okay. I, I am an animal rights activist, <laugh>, and I do not want any creature to suffer. But secretly I rejoice when wasps die because they terrify, they seem like the embodiment of wrong and evil Again. I understand. No <laugh>, they're wasps, they deserve to live. But like the idea of having a funeral for a wasp, like even I am, they're beautiful.

Lindsay (00:18:36):

They're amazing architects though. We call them mud dabbers. Mud dabbers dirt dabbers saying, I'm glad you

Renee (00:18:41):

Know what I'm talking about. I

Moby (00:18:42):

Call, I call them avatars of Satan's.

Lindsay (00:18:44):

They're huge. They're so big. Yeah,

Renee (00:18:46):

They're big, but they don't really sting dirt dauber.

Moby (00:18:48):

I'm scared. I mean, they

Lindsay (00:18:50):

Just make these little mud dwellings that are beautiful and they stick up in your, I mean, it's, it's kind of amazing.

Moby (00:18:55):

So they, but when you say they don't really sting, that implies that they in fact do st stick. Well,

Renee (00:19:00):

I mean, if you really 'em off, they're liable to hurt you. But I mean, I never scared them.

Lindsay (00:19:04):

They're not like a wasp. They won't like go for you. Yeah. Really. They're a little more gossip.

Renee (00:19:07):

They're more passive.

Moby (00:19:08):

Okay. Then I'm potentially, I, I entertain the possibility that I might not be crippled with fear by dirt dobbs the way I am, by hornets and wasp <laugh>. But

Lindsay (00:19:16):

Still, I will say, even given the fact that they are not quite as horrendous as a wasp Mm-Hmm. I don't even talk. Or a hornet or whatever. There's still, like, it's still I think, extreme to have funerals for mud dopers, dirt dopers, <laugh>. It

Renee (00:19:30):

Was very normal to me. You know, they died all the time. We were re we were remodeling our, the back of our house, uh, when I was young. And so there was always dirt and, uh, sawdust. So these dirt doers were everywhere. And they would die. And I would, I felt so terrible for these dirt doers. 'cause I used to watch 'em build their, their little houses. I loved to watch 'em. And I would ask my siblings and my mom, please, you know, be careful of the, of their house, their building these, these houses. And they got their babies in there. You could see 'em in there. You could see 'em building it. And so when they died, I would put 'em in a matchbox and I would wrap 'em in toilet paper. And I had funerals.

Moby (00:20:08):

Wow. I'm hoping that during the course of our conversation, we won't be talking about wasps and dirt. No. I

Lindsay (00:20:14):

Think that might be the end of it. But also, I don't know your story. There may be an evolving dirt dauber element to the steel

Moby (00:20:20):

<laugh>. I just, this is my in, in the book 1984 by George Orwell <laugh>. There's room 1 0 1 and room 1 0 1 is where you're confronted with your worst fear. And for me, it's a wasp or a hornet. Like, if you put me in room 1 0 1 with a single murder, Hornet <laugh>, I would suddenly be like, okay, I'm gonna put on my Make America great hat, and I'm gonna vote for Trump, and I'm gonna be a Republican <laugh>, and I'm gonna like, go work at Arby's. Like I anything to avoid a murder hornet.

Lindsay (00:20:49):

I wouldn't have guessed that. I would've guessed it would be like a kind of an overzealous, kind of sweaty ish woman who's doused in Febreze. And perfume

Moby (00:20:59):

Fabre would be a close second. Yeah.

Lindsay (00:21:00):

And, um, wants to like hug you and get really close to your physical body. That's, that's

Moby (00:21:05):

More just like claustrophobia as opposed to abject existential terror. Terror, terror. Yeah. Okay. So trauma, violence, but animals. And you became a caregiver very early on. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So now there are two other things that I'm very curious about. When you discovered alcohol and drugs and when you discovered music.

Renee (00:21:26):

Well, my daddy used to let me drink his VO and water. He his as a vo.

Lindsay (00:21:31):

What's vo? It's

Renee (00:21:32):

A whiskey. Oh, okay. It's a kind of whiskey. It's called

Moby (00:21:35):

Vo. It's hard for me to say no. 'cause I thought I knew everything about alcohol, but now I, I

Renee (00:21:39):

Didn't know like Jack Daniels or Turkey. There's vo but his was VO and he always had it down by his chair. And as a little girl, three or four years old, I used to drink it and he thought it was funny. So I started drinking very young. But my earliest recollection of a blackout was probably around 14 when, uh, I was drinking Boone's farm wine. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, the old classic Strawberry Hill forever. Uh, yeah. I was drinking that and blacked out with my boyfriend Bart Bundy. Uh, I don't know if he blacked out, but I sure did. And almost ran into a train in Galena Park, Texas, right behind the Galena Park Junior High.

Lindsay (00:22:20):

I hope one of your chapters is called Blacking out on Boone's Farm with Bart Bundy.

Moby (00:22:25):

So the alliteration there

Lindsay (00:22:26):

Is like, so good <laugh>

Renee (00:22:28):

That could be a book, in

Lindsay (00:22:30):

Example,

Moby (00:22:30):

<laugh> blacking out on Boone's Farm Booze with Bart Bundy. Yeah. <laugh> and, yeah. Um, it would

Lindsay (00:22:37):

Be better if it was in Bernie <laugh>. Yeah. <laugh>.

Moby (00:22:40):

And then how, in terms of your journey to sobriety, are drugs a big part of your story? Yes. Okay. Because like, for example, I loved drugs, but I was just an alcoholic. Like when I was, I would never do drugs without drinking. Oh, me either. But whenever I started drinking, I'm like, oh yeah, look at this bag of drugs I found behind the toilet of a dive bar bathroom. Like sure, I'll do that.

Renee (00:23:02):

Made perfect sense. Yeah. That was me too. I mean, I never, I never just did drugs to do drugs. There was always alcohol involved.

Moby (00:23:09):

And more, I'm assuming, I'm assuming you liked the speedier drugs as opposed to the slower drugs?

Renee (00:23:14):

Well, it depended. Uh, I did, like, I did a lot of the speedier drugs, uh, in my youth. As I got older now, there was, I got, I got a serious amount of pain. I had a pain problem because I had a bad, bad car wreck. Mm. Uh, years ago, I totaled my dad's car. Long story there in Gulf Shores, Alabama. And I ended up on the road to having to do yoga all the time and all this. But I almost, I almost like broke my neck. And the, the impact of that collision caused me so many problems that I ended up on pain medication. Mm-Hmm. Like all the time I was in the emergency room and I got very, very addicted to Demerol. And so that was without alcohol. That was the only drug that I ever did really? Or pain medication without alcohol being involved because I really had serious pain. But the problem is, as a good addict, an alcoholic, you, you can, you can manufacture pain as well. And so that began to happen to me on a regular basis. And so I was very addicted to not only the alcohol and other drugs like marijuana and all ever, it, you know, whatever, whatever was around when I was drinking, I would do. But the pain medication, because I had a real problem, it almost did me in. And so that was a hard, hard road for me. I finally got completely free of all that.

Moby (00:24:37):

Do you have a sobriety date? Yes.

Renee (00:24:39):

January the eighth, 2013.

Moby (00:24:42):

Oh. So kind of recently

Renee (00:24:44):

11 years. But I've been in the program for 33 years.

Moby (00:24:48):

Yeah. So I did what we call revolving door sobriety for a while. And I was like, oh, go in for six months, go out for six months, go in for a month, go out for 12 years, go in, you know, like, yeah. And then finally just that, like, walking in when you're defeated, when you're just, you're like, I guess what I'm done. Like, and it's funny, like when I, when I sponsor people in 12 step programs, it's one of the first questions I have to ask 'em. It's like, are you done? Are you done? You know, it's like, 'cause it's, it's not my place to judge. But it's such a difference between someone who's dealing with the consequences of drinking or the consequences of addiction as opposed to someone who fully is done where they're, they've accepted it. They're like, guess what? I'm an addict and I'm done. And at that point, you're like, okay, now the work begins until that point, it's sort of managing the addiction.

Renee (00:25:35):

It's over and over and over. I've had 11 years, six years, four years, two years, a few months. But this last time almost died on my couch. I, I mean, I'm embarrassed to admit this, but it's just the truth of addiction. I had been drinking all day, and I did probably, I know a thousand milligrams of Demerol, like a hundred milligram viles. I almost, uh, did myself in that day. I

Moby (00:25:58):

Didn't, of course, of course. The real addict, when they hear that story, they're like, my response jealousy, you know? Oh, you'd hear about someone dying. You'd be like, oh God, <laugh>, why not me? Like why

Renee (00:26:08):

<laugh>? Why couldn't that have been me? Yeah, yeah. Right. I know, right. Help on

Lindsay (00:26:13):

Self-destruction. Do you think that's from, do you think it's because it's hard to overcome addiction and you're like, wow, that's like an easier way to

Moby (00:26:18):

Handle it? Well, maybe it's only me, but like, when I was drinking and doing drugs, I was like, well, this is great because I love the way alcohol makes me feel. I love the way drugs make me feel. I like that it takes up so much time. But I'm also, I love the fact I was hurting myself. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And the ultimate extension of hurting yourself is kind of wanting to die. Mm. You know, like every morning I would wake up after having 20 drinks and vicodins and cocaine and all sorts of things. Not morning. I'd wake up at five in the afternoon. Right. And one of my first thoughts was like, like I didn't do enough because I'm still here, I'm still breathing. And it was sort of like just a wistful disappointment. Like what sort of cockroach DNA do I have that's keeping me alive when better men than me are overdosing and dying left and right. I'm like, how I'm little. Like, I'm not even in great shape. Like, why am I still alive? So,

Lindsay (00:27:08):

Well, I think it's because you both had a lot of work to do, if I had to guess. But also, this isn't interesting how violent we are toward humans are toward others, but also towards ourselves. Yeah. The internal violence of like, I know I'm hurting myself and I'm really comfortable with this self violence and thoughts. And

Moby (00:27:26):

There's a funny, you remind me of a funny story I heard when I say funny, not comedic funny. But, um, a friend of mine went to go hear the Dalai Lama speak, and the friend asked to, you know, like, there's, um, in, uh, what's it called? Meta meditation. M-E-T-T-A meditation. You say, may all beings be free from suffering. Right. But you also say, may I be free from suffering? Right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And the friend asked the Dalai Lama and said like, I, you know, like, I have a really hard time being kind to myself and asking that I be free from suffering. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And the Dalai Lama didn't understand the question, had to have it translated, had to have someone explain it. And he was like, but what? He's like, but there's like, why wouldn't you want to be free from suffering? Why wouldn't you want to be like, he couldn't actually understand the premise of the question. And I thought that was so interesting. But like for us, it's second nature. It's like, yeah, of course I wanted to suffer. I wanted to be in pain. And for someone rational, they're like, but that's the most absurd, ridiculous thing in the world. And whereas for us, it's sort of second nature. Yeah.

Lindsay (00:28:31):

I think some, I think it's sometimes it feels good to hurt ourselves in various ways, whether it's drugs or alcohol or what we eat or the, the various ways we don't take care of ourselves.

Renee (00:28:43):

Yeah. Well, you know, the, our our literature tells us we're hell Ben on self-destruction. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And that was me. I mean, it, it, it was my course of action was to self-destruct without sobriety, without a way to live without alcohol and drugs. That is what I do. That's my program. My program is to die. Yeah. To kill myself. The program, uh, when I, when I work this program that works for me, and I do, I mean now, I mean, I was done. Uh, I finally put everything aside. I picked it all up and I do it. I sponsor like radically. Um, because that is, that is what works. And, you know, but I remember when I was going through this, through the steps this last time when I realized that one of my biggest problems was feeling good about being okay. Mm. Feeling good about being successful, whatever that is.

Renee (00:29:41):

You know, because I knew how to self-destruct. I knew how to get my life to a certain point and crash it to the ground. And I was so, I was, I loved doing that actually. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I took great pride in it, <laugh>, because I could always build, you know what I'm talking about? I could always build it back up and go, well, that was easy, but now, but this last time I was like, oh my God, I, I won't ma, I mean, I won't make it back. And that, that would be okay. But there is something keeping me alive. Mm-Hmm. There is a reason I'm still here. There is a reason. And it wasn't a year later I was vegan. Mm. You know, not even a year. 10 months.

Moby (00:30:19):

And so there's so much there that I wanna unpack. But I also, in terms of chronology, because I'm like a type A wasp, ironically, because Wasp is Terraform <laugh>, um, <laugh>, so is two other things that I think for me are a big part of. When, when we were looking at the documentary, looking at Rowdy Girl, um, one music, uh, and I learned something last night that I hadn't been aware of, that you used to run a school like a, an organization for fledgling music musicians. But the other is spirituality. Um, and that was when Jason, the director of Rowdy Girl, um, sent us the first cut of the film. There was one of the opening scenes where I believe you're doing a sort of a Daoist meditation. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And that, I don't know about you, Lindsay, but when I saw that, I was like, oh, this is a different story. This is, you know, like the Texas rancher country western addict who rescues cows and does Taoist meditation <laugh> in the middle of like, like Hill Country Texas. Keep in mind, I don't actually know what hill country Texas is. It just sounded good in my head. So if you're in the hill country, but that's,

Renee (00:31:33):

It's pretty close.

Moby (00:31:34):

Yeah. Oh, okay. Then hill, I'm gonna stick with it. Hill country, Texas <laugh>. Um, but that's like, yeah. I mean, that's the reason why so many people, us included, are so fascinated with your story because there aren't, to state the obvious too many country western singing Texas rancher women who also save cows, wear vegan t-shirts and do Daoist meditations.

Renee (00:32:02):

Yeah. You know, I, I've been accused of being country and eastern <laugh>. So there you go.

Moby (00:32:06):

<laugh>. And so, so to that end, when did you first sort of start becoming aware of spirituality and a and having a spiritual life?

Renee (00:32:17):

That's, uh, I, uh, I remember as a little girl wandering, you know, on an ocean. Like we used to always go to the beach. My mother would take us, and I would write poems in my head all the time. I used to sing to animals all the time. This is what I just, random things would just come outta my mouth. Like when I was out in your forest a while ago, I was thinking of a song. You know, it's just, I think in terms of music, I think in terms of lyrics. And so I remember, I, I love to wander by the sea where God is watching over me. I love to watch the fish pop out while God is watching all about. That is my first memory of a lyric. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> that I, that I made up when I was very, very young. Very, very young. And, um, I like

Moby (00:33:01):

The fish popping out.

Renee (00:33:02):

The fish I loved doing. Yeah. <laugh>. Exactly. They don't do that much anymore, but they did back then <laugh>. But, you know, I always was a spiritual girl. I grew up Christian. Um, I was always the one memorizing all the ver the verses getting all the stars. I know the Bible inside out forwards upside down, backwards, and any which way, but loose. Um, I have studied that Bible and I've studied enough to know that there's things in there I don't believe anymore, and there's missing books of the Bible. And so, not only have I studied the Bible, I've also studied all sorts of ene text. Um, uh, I'm really, really into the Holy mag, the Nassan, um, mm-Hmm. <affirmative> Bible text, which is unbelievable. It's from Ethiopia. And that whole Bible, you know, reveals a whole nother level of, uh, of, of truth that people don't even know about. But, uh, and then I, you know, I've studied Buddhism, Taoism, Sikhism, Hinduism. I have over a thousand hours of yoga teacher training. I am certified in Ha yoga beginning and advance Kundalini yoga. I'm an Ayurveda practitioner.

Moby (00:34:13):

So basically just a regular W rancher.

Renee (00:34:17):

Yeah. Nobody knows these things about me. It's just what I did. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> my whole life to undo all of the trauma. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> in my life. You know, yoga has really yoga and the program of Alcoholics Anonymous, and I'm just gonna say it out loud Hmm. My life, you know. And so I love Ba Buddhism, I love Taoism. I love chanting, like, you know, oh, my Shava, I can chant and I could chant five or six CHS sitting here. You know, we could have a mantra.

Moby (00:34:49):

And there's one thing that Lindsay and I were talking about before you got here is, so I grew up in Connecticut, you know, uptight white, Anglo-Saxon Protestant land. And Texas to me, when I was growing up, always seemed like this baffling country. You know, it was cowboys and lynchings and <laugh>, who knows what, like, just like terrifying weirdness. But then, and I'd love Lindsay here, your perspective on this is when I first started going to Texas, I was like, oh, it's really different. Mm-Hmm. Like, it's, I mean,

Lindsay (00:35:26):

It depends on where you go,

Moby (00:35:27):

<laugh>. I get. But I was like, I remember going to Dallas, for example, and meeting really interesting, loud, creative people. Mm-Hmm. And then I started thinking like, well, Willie Nelson's from Texas and the surfers are from Texas. Like, so when I was walking

Lindsay (00:35:44):

Beyonce Yeah. <laugh>

Moby (00:35:46):

Beyonce.

Lindsay (00:35:47):

Yeah. She's from Houston.

Moby (00:35:48):

So the, the documentary Rowdy Girl, as I mentioned last night when we were talking, is one of the things that really impressed and surprised me were the men. Because you think of Texas men as just being like, these shut down, angry Trump supporting. Woo. Just vicious. At least that's what I think a lot of people would think of Texas men as being, whereas the men, like your husband, Tommy, the incredibly handsome rancher that every woman now has a crush on. He should, he should make posters or calendars <laugh>. He

Lindsay (00:36:21):

And Busters should definitely do a calendar. They should.

Moby (00:36:23):

And then, uh, you know, the, the man at the end who actually went vegan, like these men are not what I would normally think of as Texas men. Like, they're thoughtful, they're erudite, they're sensitive. Like the, you know, the, the handsome rancher who drops off is Buster the cow

Lindsay (00:36:39):

Buster, the baby cow.

Moby (00:36:40):

And he start and he's crying like the toughest rancher you've ever seen. And he's emotional and crying. Like, it's such a beautiful side of, like, it's a, it's a fascinating side of Texas masculinity that I hadn't honestly really been that aware of. So, Lindsay, when you were growing up or being in Texas, that level of, I don't know, am am I making any sense? Yeah.

Lindsay (00:37:05):

I think, I think what you're getting at is that Texas, there's, there's so much more than I think the, like yeehaw cowboy hunting, you know, burger eating steak people that does exist. They are there. Right. Very, very much. And they, you know, the recent last decade of politics has made it all a whole lot weirder. But I will say, I mean, 'cause I, I lived in Austin. I lived in Dallas for a little while. There's an amazing kind of alternative community out there. There's artists, there's sculptors, there's kooky weirdos out there who kind of all live in this amazing community. I mean, some of the coolest art I've ever seen was in Austin, Texas. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, some of the weirdest, most challenging, bizarre theater I ever saw was in strange little black box theaters in Austin, Texas. So like, there's an amazing arts community, and there's definitely a progressive world within that kind of, that the Yee-haw. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Um, they call, there are people that call us, I don't know if you've ever heard this, but they call it the, the blueberry and the tomato soup. Uh, have you ever heard that? No. Saying it, that's my family called it. Is it a salt? What? No, it's just a thing. People say <laugh>, it should be a song that's not blue,

Moby (00:38:26):

Blue, blue meaning Democrats, blueberry

Lindsay (00:38:28):

Meaning like the blue little piece in like the lost. But I also

Moby (00:38:31):

Just like the poetry of it. Of like the strangeness in middle of tomato.

Lindsay (00:38:35):

Yeah, exactly. But also, but it's really real. But also it's in Dallas, you know, and even Houston has an amazing arts community that is very liberal. Right. Very progressive, very kooky, and very, like, you know, open-minded when it comes to

Renee (00:38:47):

Surprisingly. Yeah.

Lindsay (00:38:49):

But it really, it's, it's, there's a strong presence of that there. I found it when I was there. Yeah. And I loved it very, very

Moby (00:38:55):

Much. And, and Rowdy girl. Now, I, I looked it up on the map. I think it's, at least according to the kind people at Google Maps, it seems to be about 50 minutes away from Austin. Is that correct?

Renee (00:39:05):

Yeah. 50 minutes.

Moby (00:39:07):

Um, that's

Renee (00:39:08):

Good. Moby. What?

Moby (00:39:09):

Moby

Lindsay (00:39:09):

Loves maps. Wow. Maps and weather. Just drive him wild.

Moby (00:39:15):

I'm a middle aged guy. Next up I'll start like collecting trains and watching World War II documentaries or something.

Renee (00:39:20):

Oh, right, right, right. Obituaries. Yeah. <laugh>, <laugh>.

Moby (00:39:24):

Maybe start collecting cardigans. Uh, so, so that culture, because like a lot of people might think of you and your spirituality and your veganism as being, like being a martian in the middle of Red State, Texas. But in a way, when I think of Willie Nelson, when I think of Lindsay, what you were describing, when I think of there's a, like the, uh, and not just even, sorry, I'm, I'm trying to figure this out a little bit myself, and I could just ask a question rather than ramble on. No,

Lindsay (00:39:57):

This is fun to

Moby (00:39:57):

Watch. Okay. Yeah. <laugh>, um, is, there's, there's the Austin weirdness, but there's also like that, that the handsome rancher in the movie, like, I don't think he spends much time in Austin going to experimental. No, he does not theater, but he still has a, there's a,

Lindsay (00:40:16):

A gentleness, a softness to

Moby (00:40:18):

Yeah. That you wouldn't expect.

Lindsay (00:40:19):

Well, I think all these people, you know, it comes out when you least expect it. I also think that there is an expectation of a certain version of masculinity that is very powerful in Texas. Yes. But also in many places globally, where I think men are expected to be a certain way, and women are expected to be a certain way. But we are all unbelievably complex. We all have the capacity for gentleness, sweetness, even if we go out hunting every weekend. Do you know what I mean? Like that

Renee (00:40:46):

I always say, you know, we loved animals and killed them. And that is the philosophy in Texas. And you do it kindly. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I mean, that's the, the mystery of it all is that, you know, my husband used to tell me, you know, they only have one bad day. And he was so gentle with, you know, the livestock, you know, he was so gentle and

Moby (00:41:06):

So Tommy when he was still a rancher. Yeah. When

Renee (00:41:08):

He was still a rancher. I mean, um, you know, I used to watch him, you know, with all the cows and the calves, and, and he, he never liked taking the animals to the cell barn. It was something he thought he had to do. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. It was something he was trying to honor. He was trying to honor his tradition, you know?

Lindsay (00:41:25):

But also, it's your business. I mean, yeah. It's, it's expensive to raise animals, to raise large animals like that with all the space that you need and all the food and all the medical support. Like, it's, it is, it's a business for people. Very expensive. And it's very, I mean, this is something I, we're jumping really, really far ahead, but I just wanna say, one of the things that always thrilled me most about you and what you were trying to do is that I think so many people feel stuck in the culture, stuck in the way of life, stuck in the, this is how things are done. And they don't see another way of being. They don't think, well, maybe I can turn my chicken, my chicken coop coops warehouses into a mushroom farm. You know, people don't, don't consider it. It's just the way it's always been. Well, I

Renee (00:42:12):

Mean, persona,

Moby (00:42:13):

Oh, sorry. Go ahead. So to that end, let's talk about the evolution, like your transition into veganism and animal rights. Can you tell us about that?

Renee (00:42:23):

Yeah. So my transition, uh, to animal rights, <laugh>, I think it happened before I even knew I was an animal rights activist. Like when I won that award. Vegan rookie Activist of the Year award, uh, at the, when I met you Yeah. At the Animal Rights conference. I didn't even know that was a thing, or I didn't know I was getting it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I didn't know I was a animal activist at that point. Uh, until I got that award, I thought I was just going crazy on a Texas cattle ranch <laugh>. And so, you know, I didn't really pick up on all that. I just, uh, was doing whatever I had to do when I went vegan on Halloween, 2014, to save the cows. Um, they literally, they literally became my reason for getting up in the morning. Everything mattered. Every, nothing else mattered. Everything revolved around them. And I kind of liken it to like, when vampires become vampires Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, when people become vampires, and I know this not be farfetched, but this is also in my book. Um, 'cause I have a secret, secret love for watching vampire

Moby (00:43:30):

Movies, and you're secretly a vampire.

Renee (00:43:31):

I'm secretly a vampire. That's it. Which,

Moby (00:43:33):

If this is the case, can <laugh>, I don't know if Lindsay, if I can speak for you as well. I think both of us would happily be turned into vampires. Well,

Renee (00:43:40):

We just tell you what

Moby (00:43:42):

Happens, Lindsay, that's so you Okay. Well,

Lindsay (00:43:44):

Well, no, yeah, no, I definitely, I definitely would. But I wanna be a vampire that's also like a werewolf at the same time. So I can like, run on all fours. Well, you

Renee (00:43:51):

Think about a vampire,

Lindsay (00:43:52):

If we're going magic, let's go magic. Yeah.

Renee (00:43:53):

<laugh>, I mean, think about what they do. I mean, right. They go from being normal people, whatever that is, to craving blood, running for blood, you know, waking up only at night, you know, feasting on bodies.

Moby (00:44:06):

I'm very curious to see how this extends as a vegan metaphor.

Renee (00:44:08):

Yes. And so the vegan metaphor is when you become a vegan, you run from the dark. You run from everything having to do with blood and violence and suffering and flesh. You want nothing to do with it. And I promise you, when I went vegan for the animals on a Halloween in 2014, it was a four and a half year progression. Four and a half years I was oppressed. I didn't know I was going vegan on a cattle ranch. I went vegan when, I mean, it was, it was as if it was all building up to that final moment when I saw chopped up dead animal bodies in a bowl at my mother-in-law's house. Instead of stew meat, instead of stew meat. I saw chopped up dead bodies. And I could no longer, I was just like, and it was like I slid down some rabbit hole in my brain.

Renee (00:44:58):

It, and it was like becoming, it must be what, like becoming a vampire is because I went from totally being okay with it to, I came out roaring <laugh>. I was like, you'll not take them animals to the cell barn anymore. We're gonna have a funeral for all these deer heads that we had. We had horns all over our house. I mean, we even called one of our halls, the horny hall and, you know, we had all of this stuff, deer skins food. You know, I just went from being okay with it to feeling like I was gonna die because it was around me. And so that's, and I, I became an animal rights activist because I became conscious of what was happening. Everybody listening, if you are vegan for the animals, you should be an animal rights activist. There is no other way, in my opinion, you know, I mean, but this is me. I am 100% if I believe in something, if I'm in it, I am going all the way. And, um, the animals are, are, they're, they're dying every second of the day when vegans are out there not doing what they can to be an animal rights activist, I became one because it's the right thing to do. And I didn't even know I was becoming one.

Moby (00:46:17):

Hmm. Um, and so at the time, I mean, because for example, I, when I went vegan, like it was 1987, I was in New England. I was moving to New York City, uh, like it was, it was easy for me. I mean, it was hard 'cause it was 1987, so I ate a lot of oats and carrots. I was basically a horse, um, <laugh>. But, you know, there wasn't, I mean, there's some cultural pushback, but like the culture of New England and New York City, no one was raising animals to kill them. Right. Whereas you were, at the time, married to wonderful St. Tommy on a cattle ranch. And your guys, I'm, I'm assuming like your revenue, his revenue was killing animals. That's a challenge. To your point, Lindsay, like, I mean, like, it's one thing for me to be like, I'm gonna go vegan. It didn't affect my livelihood. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> it didn't alienate my rancher family. Um, so what was, can you, can you sort of walk us through what that and the fact that you were so committed and forthright from day one, how did, how did that work with Tommy? How did that work with your culture, et cetera?

Lindsay (00:47:28):

And also feel free to sprinkle in the divorce and remarriage, because that, I just wanna know everything about it. Yeah. So

Moby (00:47:35):

Basically what

Lindsay (00:47:36):

We, but I feel like in the timing, maybe something comes in about that.

Moby (00:47:39):

So what we learned, you know, in, in, I believe in Rowdy Girl, is that you and Tommy were married, then you got divorced, then you got married again, which is very romantic.

Renee (00:47:47):

Yes, it is. It, it, it it is romantic. And it really happened. And quite frankly, when I went vegan, I say this all the time, uh, Tommy would've probably, you know, been able to stomach it better if I'd have had an affair. Going vegan on a cattle ranch is like, that's the most unloyal thing you can do if you're a cattle rancher's wife. I mean, it's right up there with having an affair. You know, it's got, you know, it's, it's a tough, it's a toss up as, which is worse. <laugh> and so <laugh>. Anyway, uh, when I went, when I went vegan, Tommy was, um, you know, Tommy, when he finally went vegan, uh, when he finally went vegan, he went vegan for health reasons. So what, but what, what happened before he did was he was really, really struggling. He struggled a lot with the fact that I was, um, trying to keep him from eating any animal products.

Renee (00:48:43):

Uh, not trying, I absolutely forbade it. I said, if you bring it in here, I'll, I'll throw it back outside. We will not have any animal products in this house. And he says, well, I live here too. And I was like, it doesn't matter whether you live here, we're not gonna have any death and suffering in this house. I mean, it was like, I had a whole different script. It was like all of a sudden I went from being a human that ate animals to a vegan that had the whole script of how horrible it was to be consuming animals. And I believe that that script is in all of us. I believe that every single human has inside their DNA that switch. That once you go there, there is no turning back. You will never be un vegan. You'll never go, oh, well I was vegan, you know, 10 years ago and blah, yada yada.

Renee (00:49:26):

No, you, you weren't, you were never vegan. And so, as far as, as far as Tommy goes, he was, he was, we almost divorced the second time <laugh>, uh, because of this. I mean, we came really close. He didn't wanna leave me. 'cause he knew I would take over and I wouldn't leave him because I knew he'd kill the cows. We were, we had a Texas showdown. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. We were like this. And if you ever saw War of the Roses where they were hanging on the chandeliers, that movie, uh, fighting, it was like that. It was, I mean, we weren't hit fist fighting, but man, we were fighting like crazy. 'cause I saw those animals, those cows as my family. I lived with the cows during the day. I stayed out there with them all day long and wouldn't come home until dusk. And so I learned what it was like to actually be in the herd.

Renee (00:50:19):

I followed him everywhere. I stayed with him, took my guitar, took my, my, my vegan lunch. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so Tommy, you know, he, he finally went vegan, but he did it kicking and screaming. Uh, he did it. He really did. He always says veganism was shoved down my throat. I cuted up and I liked it. <laugh>. And that's what happened. And you know, he, Tommy worked for Dow Chemical for 40 years. He, he bought the cattle ranch years, years before so he could have a additional retirement. So he could have a, he, he likes to feel secure. He likes to have a portfolio where he is feel secure in his life. And the cattle ranch was to be that for him, the cattle ranch was to be all of that so he could do all the things he loved to do in his life. And I totally cut it off with the knees.

Renee (00:51:08):

I mean, I stopped it all. And he always says, Renee, if I had it to do over again, looking back on it all, you know, you don't know what you know until you, you don't know what you don't know. He said, I'd have just given you them cows, you know? 'cause I did the fundraiser and I bought the cows from him. You know, I did a fundraiser, Kip helped me with that, helped me figure out how to do it. And I bought his cows in less than four months and started, you know, the first ever documented beef cattle w ranch conversion, you know, to sanctuary ever. I mean, that's, that's, nobody else has ever done this. And I didn't know that was a first, I didn't know that no other cattle ranch had saved their cows from slaughter. And I mean, I didn't realize that. And so, you know, it all, that's how it all kind of happened. And then Tommy went vegan on May 2nd, 2015 for help

Moby (00:51:55):

<laugh>. Well, and now, I mean, like, if you walked the documentary, like, again, I don't, I don't know Tommy, clearly you do. He's your husband. Um, but like, it just seems like such a calm, gentle, you know, like, almost like a monk.

Renee (00:52:11):

Well, he went from, he started out for help. That's how he could go through the door. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. See, he could go through the door health reasons, because his father died at 62 of a massive heart attack. So when he saw Forks Over Knives and he started relating to t Colin Campbell's, uh, China study, he started really reading that. And he, and, and to his credit, he watched every documentary I put in front of him. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> in front of him. Cowpiracy., What The hell? He watched, uh, Vegucated, you know, Harold Brown's documentary, uh, all of those Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> Speciesism. And he started kind of waking up to stuff and he decided on May 2nd, 2015, when we did that first festival, he decided he could do it for health reasons. 'cause he found Follow your heart cheese and so delicious ice cream. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Those were the two holdouts. And then the more he talked to kipp, the environmental, um, questions and concerns became obvious. And he began to see environmentally that this was the way to go. And I have watched Tommy Sauna it.

Moby (00:53:14):

Mm-Hmm.

Renee (00:53:15):

<affirmative>. I wish, I wish I had a camera on my point of view. Through the years that I've watched him become an ethical vegan, I, I wished I had a camera where others could see what I've seen. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> in Tommy waking up around loving these animals.

Moby (00:53:34):

Mm. And in, so in Texas, where you live, where a rowdy girl is, is how much pushback. 'cause in the movie, it seems like everyone you encounter is remarkably open to what you're doing. Like even the former Marine who comes by, like, he's saying like, oh, we're eating less pork and we're eating more vegetables. Like, you must get some, my assumption is you get, have received a lot of pushback. Uh, have you Mm-Hmm. No,

Renee (00:54:08):

It's so interesting. People, this is the, this is the, this is the myth. It's like everybody asks me this. They think that we're getting all this pushback in Texas. I even get money from the USDA, you know, because I've figured out, I mean, there's, there's money there for nonprofits that know how to get in there and get it done. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Um, you know, but the ranchers in Texas are, they don't, they're, they're living let live. They are a live and let live type of type of people. They're curious about what we do. Are they doing it? No. But we're not over there acting like an animal rights activists in front of them either. Mm-Hmm. We don't wave the vegan flags. We don't throw blood on, you know, now, you know, Thomas all

Moby (00:54:59):

To be, to be fair, you are often times wearing a vegan t-shirt. Well, a vegan hat. Vegan earrings.

Renee (00:55:05):

Yes. I definitely wear, I do wear the clothes. I, I got, I think I got my meter's murder earrings on now. Yeah. Lindsay. Mine have too. Yeah. I gave, yeah, I gave,

Moby (00:55:12):

If I had pierced, I'd be wearing as well. Yeah.

Renee (00:55:15):

So, no, I do wear the clothes. I wear the clothes everywhere. But I, but I, when you, when you were a cattle rancher and you're vegan and you live in a world where you're surrounded by people that are in cattle ranching business, you know, the part, they're, you know them, you know, you know their part. Yeah. And so it's easy to integrate. Um, I mean, kinda like vampires integrate in society. You know, you may not even know you're sitting by one. Right.

Moby (00:55:46):

Yeah. I mean, like, if Lindsay and I were to go to Hill Country, Texas and pretend to be cattle ranchers, there's a good chance it would lash out one second.

Renee (00:55:56):

Y'all could not ever pass off as a cattle rancher. Right. But we do because we were,

Moby (00:56:01):

I mean, I love that scene in the movie when Tommy goes to the feed stores. Is that a real thing?

Renee (00:56:06):

Yeah, that's what I'm glad you

Moby (00:56:07):

Saw that it's a feed store. Okay. And 'cause you realize like, oh, he was probably doing the exact same thing when he was raising cows to kill them.

Renee (00:56:13):

Exactly. Yeah.

Moby (00:56:14):

And now he's gonna the feed store, but still like nothing new. He's a good old, good old boy in the feed store, just like having a quiet conversation with the guy behind the counter. And like, you have

Renee (00:56:21):

A misty morning

Lindsay (00:56:22):

Sipping coffee, grabbing the cow feed. Been doing it forever.

Renee (00:56:25):

That's why it's effective. Yeah. And that's the reason I can walk up with to Tommy when he is mending a fence with a form, you know, with a cattle rancher on the other side with my meter's murder earrings. And my Tesla was a vegetarian shirt, you know, and shake his hand. And he may look at me a little funny, you know, 'cause they all know, they all know what we did. And sometimes sitting over coffee at a little restaurant, they'll, we'll talk about it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And we just talk about it and I will slip stuff in. You know, I don't try to hammer veganism on people like this. 'cause that ain't the way they're gonna go vegan. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. That's the way you're gonna push 'em away.

Lindsay (00:57:00):

Yep.

Renee (00:57:00):

You gotta know how to have conversations with these people. 'cause conversations is what changes people really. It's,

Lindsay (00:57:08):

You know, these new ideas that they're exp I mean, I remember when I, uh, 'cause when I went vegan, I was living in San Marcus, Texas. And

Renee (00:57:15):

Where's San Marcus?

Lindsay (00:57:17):

It's just south of Austin.

Renee (00:57:19):

That's my, yeah. My smile. I love hanging out there. It's

Lindsay (00:57:21):

A beautiful, beautiful, the river runs through it. It's

Renee (00:57:24):

Gorgeous. Yeah.

Lindsay (00:57:24):

I love that. Um, but I, I remember it, somebody had mentioned to me in a conversation that I was like, kind of half in, half out that they didn't eat meat. And I was like, you can do that. I didn't know that was impossibility. I didn't know that was a thing. And from one little conversation that I was just halfway in spurred decades of veganism just like that from a conversation. So these conversa, and it wasn't, they weren't saying you have to, they were just saying that they, that that's what they did. Yeah. And it was so I was like, that what you can, you can just not eat

Renee (00:58:00):

That. Yep.

Lindsay (00:58:02):

And then that, you know, so these conversations matter. I think. Yeah. It's ideology that people aren't exposed to often, or they don't know someone that's actually done it, you know? Yep.

Renee (00:58:11):

The, the first conversation I had with Richard Trailer, you know, the, the cattle rancher at the end that Oh yeah. That went vegan. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I was sent sitting in his house with, um, y'all may know Ji Ji Chua. He's, um, ja half Japanese, half French animal activist that's just doing all kind of good in the world right now. But anyway, he was an intern for me at the time and doing videography. And he went with me and Tommy, uh, we were going to pick up a cow named Honey. Cindy, the wife, uh, had called me a few days prior and just panicking about this cow that was gonna be sold for slaughter. And she had a real heart for this cow. And she had seen one of our stories on CBS evening news or somewhere. And she called me out of the blue. And I remember talking to her.

Renee (00:59:00):

I was in bed. I was early one morning. And, uh, the long story short of that is she could not stomach the fact that honey was gonna go to slaughter. 'cause she really had a relationship with this cow. And she asked me would I help her. And so we were getting ready to move to welder at the time. We, the timing was horrible for us to take in any more new animals. So I found a place for honey. And so we were coordinating that rescue. So we went there and Richard Trailer was looking out at us from the corner of his eye. He thought we were there to pick up that cow, take it to the cell barn and make money. That's what he thought. He could not believe we were actually there. Uh, you know, for altruistic reasons. He had no, he, he was like, are y'all really seriously gonna pick up this cow, take it and take care of it for the rest of its life?

Renee (00:59:51):

I mean, 'cause you know, cows don't have long lives. You know, they die young. Uh, you know. And so he finally understood that we were for real. He invited us into his home, sitting around a bar. We had a cup of coffee. And that's when you get to go in the back door. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> of a rancher's brain. 'cause he was not vegan. She wasn't vegan. Uh, I got to sit there and I got to have real conversations with him. I got to talk to him about, you know, does he eat eggs? You know, I got to tell him about, you know, the whole, you know, scrambled periods. And I got to watch him go, I don't think I'll ever eat another egg now, Renee. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, I got to have these conversations. I got to have a conversation with him about, you know, 'cause he's, you know, really into the environment. I said, how can you be, be an environmentalist and eat meat? You know? I said, you know, and so, and then all of a sudden light bulbs were going on off. And he was going, gosh, you're right. You know. And I said, do you really like taking your animals to the cell barn? Do you like the way it feels when you drop off your animals? Does that make you feel good? No. I said, well, you're probably already vegan. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. You know. And so he ended up not only surrendering honey, but honey's daughter

Renee (01:01:04):

That we didn't even know was gonna be part of the equation. So we got to rescue two cows that day, and we got to make friends with Cindy and Richard Trailer, and they ended up in the documentary. And, uh, now they're both vegan.

Lindsay (01:01:18):

Wow. That's an amazing story. My fingers are still crossed for sunny though, too.

Renee (01:01:25):

Oh. I believe Sunny's already vegan. I just think Sunny's

Moby (01:01:28):

A hot racnher?.

Lindsay (01:01:29):

Yeah. Hot, hot rancher. Well, I mean, because it's like, once I think you open up your heart to these animals, when you're getting to the point where you're trying to make calls to find a place for a cow that you love, it's like there's already cracks in the foundation. You know, like, you can kind of, you can see it wanting to come out. I,

Renee (01:01:46):

You know, I gotta show y'all pictures later. You gotta see pictures of Sonny and Buster. Absolutely.

Moby (01:01:51):

Well, also, I mean, that is one of the most confusing, but also potentially most encouraging aspects of animal rights activism, is we are never really trying to convince anyone to believe something new. Yeah. You know, the vast majority of people who are not psychopaths already don't wanna hurt animals. Even if, even if they don't love. I know that you guys, I'm stating the obvious, but like, even if they don't love animals, they don't want to make animals suffer. And everyone, if you, if you try to show someone an image of an animal being killed or tortured or suffering, they'll immediately be horrified and not wanna look at it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So we're not saying change your beliefs. Right. It's just simply saying, let your actions be an extension of your belief. Let your actions reflect your beliefs. And it's the funniest thing. That's what gets you crucified. I know. You know, if you go to someone and say like, Hey, you like animals? They're like, sure. Of course I like animals. Okay, great. Well, you don't want to be involved in making animals suffer. They're like, no, of course not. I would never want animals to suffer. And then the next question, well, are you a vegan? And that's when they punch you in the face. Yeah.

Renee (01:02:57):

<laugh>. Right. You

Moby (01:02:58):

Know, it's like, like, but all we're doing is saying that is a lo the most basic, logical extension of what you already believe.

Lindsay (01:03:08):

But also it's culture. If, if, if culture said that we have to hit our heads up against the wall 10 times a day, even though it hurts and made us maybe a little dizzy. But that's what everyone in the culture does, is hit their head against the wall 10 times a day. You would be like, Hey, it hurts when you do that, doesn't it? Well, when

Renee (01:03:24):

You think about

Lindsay (01:03:24):

That, you'd be like, yeah. But then it's like, stop. And you're like, well, I can't. How dare,

Moby (01:03:28):

How dare you

Lindsay (01:03:28):

Can't. Why would you stop? Yeah. <laugh> you can.

Renee (01:03:30):

And just like the, you know, I think one of the reasons, honestly, is because religion is so, our religion in our society promotes, you know, eating animals. And that is one of the reasons why Sonny, you know, is so adamant. He

Lindsay (01:03:46):

Talks about it in the documentary Yeah. About dominion over the animals. Yeah.

Renee (01:03:49):

That's why

Moby (01:03:50):

Has he read the book Din you know, by, um, what's his name? Oh,

Renee (01:03:53):

Scully Matthew

Moby (01:03:54):

Scully. Matthew Sculley. Who

Renee (01:03:55):

He hasn't read that, but I should really get

Moby (01:03:57):

That's an interesting one. It's a good idea. Because Matthew Scully was, uh, George Bo Senior's. Yeah. Chief speech writer.

Renee (01:04:02):

That's a great idea. I talked to, to Matthew. What

Lindsay (01:04:03):

Did he do? The other do? What did he say? He

Moby (01:04:05):

Wrote a book called Dominion. And it, um, if I, I, I don't think I finished the book, but when I, when it came out, I read it 'cause it was so, I was like, wow. George Bush, senior's Republican speech writer, wrote a book about animal rights. And I believe, I hope I'm not mistaken if I am, I'm embarrassing myself that he sort of looks at the etymology of the word dominion. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And it comes from God. Do you know? And somehow, like, like in the Bible, for what it's worth, when they say like, humans shall have dominion over animals, what's being said is, you should treat animals the way you want God to treat you. You know, like, basically treat animals as if you are God. They're God, which means kindness, mercy, compassion. You got it. Not to dominate you got it. This idea of like, you're like, and so that's the basic origin of that root is to be kind. You

Renee (01:05:03):

Like the caretaker. Good steward.

Moby (01:05:04):

Yeah. Good steward. As opposed to dominate. Like it's how weird that it's the idea of like being like, imagine if God treated us the way most humans treat animals like that God Yeah. Would be the worst God that you can imagine. Yeah. So

Renee (01:05:24):

That's horrible. That's the demonic, you know, the so-called demonic forces. Uh, that's, I I really do believe it's animal agriculture. I believe that is the ultimate, you know, demonic force in our world.

Lindsay (01:05:35):

'cause it deadens your ability to process violence because we are surrounded by violence every single day on our, the plates in front of us or at the grocery store right in front of us where there's dismembered bodies every time you are trying to like, get to the produce section. I mean, it's like, we're just so

Moby (01:05:54):

Desensitized. And as we know it, it kills everything. It touches, it kills the animals. It kills people's souls. It causes cancer, diabetes, heart disease. It destroys the environment. It destroys water quality. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I mean, every single aspect of animal agriculture, meat, and dairy production, it just is death and suffering everywhere for the animals, for the communities, for the workers, for the people who eat it. It

Renee (01:06:16):

Destroys our souls. Yeah. Yes. It, it destroys our souls. You know, the word, hard word anima. The word anima means soul. I mean, we are all, we are all souls. Mm-Hmm. Animals included. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And when we eat the flesh of animals, we are desecrating our own soul. Hmm. I really believe that.

Moby (01:06:35):

I mean, there's a Dick Gregory, I don't know if you know Dick Gregory. He was a famous comedian Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> black comedian in the sixties, but also an outspoken vegan animal rights activist. And at the time of civil rights, he said something. So he sort of funny, but also very profound. He said, it's really hard to talk about justice when you have animals decomposing in your stomach. Yeah. You know.

Renee (01:06:57):

Exactly. Because our whole society conditions us through religion, through education, through science, through politics, through family. Every single arm of our society is propping up death and suffering as normalized. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And we eat death and suffering every day. As if, you know, as if we're partaking of the body of suffering, the blood of suffering and believing that is righteous. How sick is that?

Moby (01:07:29):

It's, uh, not just righteous, but patriotic on July 4th. Um, the, the family values of like gathering together at Thanksgiving or Christmas to eat ham and Turkey. Like you're, when you take a step back, the absurdity of it, how completely irrational it is, and how also, like, as we know, like if we ended animal agriculture, all these other problems sort of disappear.

Renee (01:07:51):

They would all go

Moby (01:07:51):

Away. You know,

Renee (01:07:52):

93 billion animals are still being slaughtered a year. Yeah.

Lindsay (01:07:56):

That's so many. It's, it's so, it's it's mind numbing

Moby (01:08:00):

10 times a population, a few

Renee (01:08:02):

The times the population. And every year, you know, and, and, and even though veganism may be on the rise, somewhat, animal killing is on the rise. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> because animal agriculture is king. You know, that's the issue. Until we band together as vegans, I really believe this, until we figure out how to get our act together and become a force so strong, no matter our differences.

Moby (01:08:27):

I mean, Shas, you know, a house divided against itself will not stand. Yeah, that's right. You know, so our infighting, our circular firing squad, sometimes there's so much passion Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> that they don't know how to express it, man. And so it gets expressed like they're so angry at injustice and the world. So like they, they turn on each other, but still, when

Lindsay (01:08:47):

There's a big, it's like, you know, fighting the person in the room with you when there's a giant monster waiting right outside that is trying to tear down the city.

Moby (01:08:55):

But it is that simple, simple question. The unavoidable inable question, is this helping animals or not? No. And if the answer is no, there's no room.

Renee (01:09:04):

We, we need to get beyond that. We need to get her beyond our egos. And I think we should, you know, wrap a, you know, the traditions around how to liberate animals. Yeah. That we all should come together and make our, our common calls.

Moby (01:09:19):

Yeah. We need like the animal rights 12 traditions.

Renee (01:09:21):

We do

Moby (01:09:22):

Also, here's an interesting little linguistic, um, journey that we're gonna go on. You said wrap. And granted you said WRAP, but it makes me think of RAP, the rancher advocacy program that you started. See how I did that? That was pretty skillful, right?

Renee (01:09:40):

It was <laugh>

Moby (01:09:41):

<laugh>. I'm not ridiculous. Um, so in addition to Rowdy Girl Sanctuary, you also have the Rancher advocacy program. You are fascinating. Rowdy Girl Sanctuary is fascinating. The rancher advocacy program is like quantum level fascinating from, at least from my perspective, living in Los Angeles and coming from New York. So can you tell us what the Rancher advocacy program is? Yes. Sorry. You, you guys are texting program. I've learned Lindsay says Program, program. Program, yeah.

Renee (01:10:11):

Program. We can say program. Yeah. We, you know, <laugh>, you

Lindsay (01:10:14):

Get both, you get data, data, you know, we're all over the

Renee (01:10:16):

Place, right? Yeah. Tomato Tomato, yeah. <laugh>. Yeah. But the Rancher advocacy program started as a program when ranchers like Cindy and Richard Trailer, you know, well, Cindy, like, when, when Rancher's wives started, started contacting me, I started realizing that it was not just random. It became, it became often I was, I found myself talking to ranchers or their families, sisters, brothers friends. And it was all because of an animal that was treated as food that was about to be slaughtered. And so, um, you know, that's the beauty of social media and, and stories, uh, when they go viral, you know, they end up in everyday America's homes. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And that's my hope that the Rowdy Girl story continues to end up in everyday America's homes so that people can change. I don't wanna just preach to the choir. And so the Rancher advocacy program is a result of me not preaching to the choir.

Renee (01:11:18):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> because ranchers and their families contacted me. And my goal with rap, um, was, and really still is, uh, I've, I've learned the hard way that we really got to reach ranchers hearts and minds and souls. We've gotta reach them through conversations so that they can change. So we can have real legit, uh, ways to help, to help them transition their cattle ranches, their chicken farms from animal production to plant-based farming. And, you know, when I first started this, gosh, back in 2000 and when was I talking about this for the first time? 2018 or something? 17. I don't know. When I first started talking about it, nobody was doing it. It was like, Renee, what are you talking about? You're crazy for even thinking such a thing. But I kept seeing that we needed to also help ranchers. That they, they weren't the bad people that everybody was making 'em out to be.

Renee (01:12:21):

They just didn't have any other way to make a living. They didn't have any other, any other way to think about animals, because this is the way they were trained and conditioned. So I realized after a while that I was gonna have to help them figure out a way to make money, because that's the issue. See, we transitioned our cattle ranch. We started making revenue, not income, because we became a nonprofit. I used all my skills, all of, uh, my promotion, music, everything I did, uh, you know, I put it all into Rowdy Girl. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And that's how I started the nonprofit. But cattle ranchers for by and large, don't have those kinds of skills. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So I was trying to help them figure out how to make money. What I figured out after, you know, finding, uh, investors, finding philanthropy, uh, you know, trying to help farmers transition.

Renee (01:13:16):

I spent years doing that and, and making lots of headway. Uh, is that until we change our government Yeah. We will never be able to really help these ranchers. And that is so frustrating to me because you just can't keep going after private funding. I went after a lot of it. Uh, and I, I don't even wanna tell you how much it's, it's too much. Uh, and nobody should be expected to put that much money into one farm. And so, you know, we've gotta, we've gotta have ways to do that. So that's, but I still, my heart is there. I was talking to a chicken farmer that wants to transition out of chicken farming, uh, just a couple of weeks ago. We've had three or four conversations. Uh, I'm sending them in different directions, helping them, but they're, they don't have an ethical change right now.

Renee (01:14:01):

It's all they're wanting to do. Do it for monetary reasons. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so I really want to urge anybody listening out there, there that wants to create a coalition with me to help so we can become stronger together. We can become stronger together with all these different transition programs out there. It's not that they're wrong. Transition is a good thing. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But if we would all come together, that was my, my vision in the very beginning. My vision in the very beginning was rap would be a coalition. Uh, I went after and talked to some of the leading, uh, animal rights activists in, in the world, and talked to them about that in their homes, in their in Zoom, and tried to get everybody together to Let's do this, let's do this. And what ended up happening is people wanted to do their own thing, which is fine. This is America. We do what we wanna do. But I really believe that we would be stronger if we would all come together for one cause.

Moby (01:14:58):

Oh, absolutely. Especially given that the resources are limited and the people we're up against have unlimited resources.

Renee (01:15:04):

Exactly. Yeah. And so that was, that's been my biggest heartache, uh, with rap, is not having, uh, the resources of not only money and capital, but also people Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> that really want this to happen as well. Because it seems to have become a thing where, you know, well, everybody's wanting now to do their own transition program, which is good. I don't have a problem with people transitioning and wanting to transition farms, but why can't we come together to do this? Yeah. Yeah. It's so hard.

Moby (01:15:35):

Um, I mean, the world of, and I wonder not to be negative, but like, if transitioning farms, you know, meat and dairy production farms to plant-based agriculture is hard. Now here's my fear. And again, I don't wanna be all a negative Nelly. My fear is that if it becomes more successful, that animal ag lobby is gonna create more barriers to it, they're gonna make it legally harder for people to, and I know that, like converting a chicken farm to a mushroom farm is really challenging. I would imagine that like, just

Renee (01:16:13):

Logistically Mm-Hmm.

Moby (01:16:14):

<affirmative>. Yeah. I mean, considering chicken farms are all toxic waste bags. Yes. Essentially. But like,

Renee (01:16:18):

Exactly.

Moby (01:16:19):

I would imagine, like, if it becomes even more successful, I could see the lobby stepping up in like, the same, same way as they've done with the ag gag laws, is like they're trying to block change by any means necessary. Mm-Hmm.

Renee (01:16:33):

<affirmative>. That's why we have to collectively as citizens become staffers in our government. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> vegan staffers. We have to become lobbyists in our, you know, in our government. We have to not be afraid. We've got to come together. We've got to unify. We've got to become so strong in our government. We've gotta have a force in there. We, you know, for hundreds of years, it's been the good old boy, you know, with their leather country cowboy boots. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> their Stetson hats. They're the ones that own our government. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I mean, it's deep. The, the, the eighth generation cowboys, it's deep. When you go to a sale barn where, you know, I always say all the time, if we, I've said this for years, if we could stop animals from going into sale barns, do you know what that is? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. If we could stop animals from going into those places where animals are auctioned off and sold to the highest bidder, we could end crush animal agriculture.

Renee (01:17:36):

If you're not, if there's no place to sell 'em. If we, if we could figure out a strategic way, uh, you know, to go and do this, there would be no animals going into feedlots. See? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so if we can do that, we would, we could, we could have a big inroad. The problem with that is these sale barns are like churches. Mm. They got their little restaurants there. Yeah. They go and have coffee. This is where the good old boys that are, you know, it's community elders, the elders of churches and all that. They're eighth 6, 7, 8.

Moby (01:18:11):

And also, I imagine, I mean, my, a lot of people in my family grew up in the Midwest. And like, when you live and work on 500 acres, a thousand acres, 2000 acres, you don't have a lot of community involvement. And the cell barns would be where they can come to, you know, where they go. So it's like, Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> It's where you see your friends who are on the next, you know, on another 20,000 acre ranches.

Renee (01:18:33):

And another thing you see is cows being prodded without eyeballs falling out because a horn has poked one, you see a, a cow giving birth on the floor and the baby getting stomped, you know? Yeah. They go and do that. They're having their coffee, they're meeting up, and there's probably quoting the Bible verse while animals are being bought and sold in horrific conditions. Um,

Lindsay (01:18:54):

Well, yeah. It's, so, it's so hard to think about, but also communities limited out there. It's a sale barn or the dq Mm-Hmm.

Renee (01:19:01):

<affirmative>. Right, exactly. Or the

Lindsay (01:19:03):

Dq or two options,

Moby (01:19:04):

Or the mega church or the, you know, yeah,

Lindsay (01:19:06):

Yeah, yeah,

Moby (01:19:07):

Exactly. Or the Trump rally or the Yeah.

Lindsay (01:19:09):

<laugh> or that, yeah. Yeah. It's hard. Well, I mean, it's, I, I wonder, I I don't, and you mentioned, you mentioned Cory Booker in the film, which I love because he's such a powerful Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> plant-based vegan presence in government. But he, he mentioned recently, I saw, he posted something that said that, you know how they have, like, the, the dietary guidelines change, so it's like the circle of food, and it's like supposed to be half vegetables, half carbohydrates, half protein or, or a quarter carbohydrates, quarter protein. But then you look at the subsidies and there's like not enough plant subsidies to fulfill the dietary guidelines that the government put out there. And

Moby (01:19:55):

Then the other thing about the subsidies is that the majority of subsidies that go towards plant agriculture, it's feed for animals. Exactly. Exactly. So it's like they're subsidizing alfalfa, they're subsidizing soy, they're subsidizing corn. Not for us to have delicious food.

Renee (01:20:12):

No. 98% of the soy grown in our country is grown to feed animals. Yep. That's crazy. And so the, an, the problem with our government is all these subsidies go to animal, animal farmers. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, if you want to transition your farm to a mushroom farm or to grow blueberries or pos, uh, you can't get subsidies for that. Yeah. You

Lindsay (01:20:35):

Lose all of that support that you have spent your entire time on that farm with that support. And then you decide to change and it's just gone.

Moby (01:20:45):

And also, there's one aspect that I, again, I mean, I don't know much about it, but I saw Sean Monson had been working on something, and I saw an interview he filmed with a chicken farmer. And what I hadn't been aware of is like the chicken farmers, like, they didn't wanna be chicken farmers. They hated it. Like they were barely getting by. But they, because of feed, because of equipment, because of everything, they were so deep in debt that like, I mean, I think that's why unfortunately so many people end up killing themselves Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> or becoming addicts or what have you. Because like, they're, they're stuck. You know, the farmers who've like gone so deeply into debt, they wanna get out. But Big Ag won't let them get out.

Lindsay (01:21:30):

Well, because they're crushed by, you know, the weight of having to like, meet these financial needs. 'cause it's very expensive to run a farm like that. But also then somebody like Tyson comes in and says, we'll help you. Yeah. We'll help you with your troubles. And then suddenly they're indebted to Tyson, which is a much more terrifying situation than being in debt to some other place.

Moby (01:21:52):

Okay. One of my first remaining questions is, what sustains you? Like, 'cause obviously like being a day in, day out, animal rights activist, dealing with all the suffering, dealing with all the stress. Like, where do you find strengths and what sustains you?

Renee (01:22:14):

Well, I am of service not only to the animals, but to suffering alcoholics and addicts. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And that is one of the serious bright spots of my life. Um, you know, when I can, when I can, um, answer a phone Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, when somebody else is suffering and talk to them about what's going on in their world.

Moby (01:22:39):

We need to interrupt for one second. Bagel is definitely like left her own devices.

Lindsay (01:22:42):

She definitely wants to make sweet, sweet love to your purse.

Moby (01:22:44):

Yeah. So <laugh>

Lindsay (01:22:47):

Bagel is that,

Renee (01:22:48):

Don't you come back here. Right.

Moby (01:22:50):

I think, I think your purse is safe. <laugh>. So, and we were sort of talking about this last night a little bit. Like when I, and it's, it's such an interesting thing. When I got sober, I remember this old, old alcoholic saying to me, like, sobriety is a spiritual program of service and humility. And I was like, no, I didn't want it to be that. I want, like, I wanna be selfish. I don't wanna like, but something happens, whether it's through sobriety or spiritual pursuit pursuits, that idea that the paradox that the best way to actually pursue happiness is to try and be of service to things outside of yourself.

Renee (01:23:33):

Yeah. And you know what's interesting? You're not gonna believe this, but, uh, I have two sponsors and one of 'em is a cattle rancher. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Her husband and her, her husband. And they have a limousine cattle ranch. And, but you know, we are people a limousine, cattle ranch, limousine cows. Yeah. Oh, it's a, it's a kind of cow. It's, it's a type of cow. I see. And so we are people that normally would not mix and it's principles before personalities. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, I am there to be sober. And so, you know, and my other sponsor that I've had forever is like, she's that Sunday school type person that cusses like a sailor. Uh, and she tells me like it is what they both do. But, you know, I had to have hardcore sponsorship. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> very hardcore. But what I learned in that is how to be of service.

Renee (01:24:20):

I learned by watching others. And that is really the backbone to my piece. Uh, that combined with, um, you know, I really do believe that, um, there's something outside of me. I believe in a higher power. I meditate, I pray. I constantly say the third step, seven step 11 step prayer. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> even sitting here in this podcast with you, I've probably said it in the back of my mind while talking to y'all. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> over and over again. It's just what keeps me grounded. It's surges through the aic psychic fields of my body. Um, I have to constantly be sustained by a higher power. I have to plug in. I can't think it's me. IUI mean, I don't, I didn't consciously think it was me, but it was me before it was me doing everything. Mm. And now, when somebody said to me, like last night after the, uh, screening, somebody said, gosh, I just love what you're doing.

Renee (01:25:21):

You're, you're doing this, you're doing that. And God, you should be so proud of yourself. You, you, you and I looked at her and I shook her. Mm-Hmm. <laugh>. And I said, let me just tell you it ain't me. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> it may look like me and I appreciate that. But what's really happening is a power greater than me that I finally surrender to. And that's why I'm able to be this voice for those ones that are screaming that we can't hear. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Because you know what, in the, in the film I said the voice for the voiceless, but I've evolved from that. Those animals are screaming. They are, they are dying every second of the day. And nobody can hear them because it's behind doors. Yeah. Behind walls where we can't hear them. We have got to do that. We've gotta be that.

Moby (01:26:08):

And where it's now illegal to film or record them. Yeah. You know, so,

Lindsay (01:26:12):

Or help them or do anything in a space.

Renee (01:26:16):

But that's what gives me the power. And I just plug in. I just stay plugged in, you know, to that instead of me. Mm-Hmm.

Moby (01:26:23):

<affirmative>. Um, so two of my remaining very simple questions. How can people help and where can people find you?

Renee (01:26:33):

Um, how can people help? The best way to help us is to go to Rowdy Girls Sanctuary website, rowdy girl sanctuary.org and become a member. Uh, we are doing everything to grow our membership. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, we have right at 700 today. Uh, we're trying to get to 800 by the end of the year. The more members we have, the more I can go out and be on tour. Uh, not only for, uh, this documentary, but also for my book. That'll be coming out. Fingers crossed. 2025.

Moby (01:27:05):

Do you have a title?

Renee (01:27:07):

Well, the working title Okay. Is Secret Diary of a Cattle Ranchers Wife. Nice

Moby (01:27:11):

One. Mm-Hmm. Ooh,

Lindsay (01:27:12):

Really good. Yeah.

Renee (01:27:14):

And then, uh, you know, and then there is dramatic film being written also, uh, about our, our work. So all this is happening. And so <laugh>, remember <laugh>? Oh

Moby (01:27:25):

My God. Just for everyone who's listening, we're not laughing at you. We're laughing at Bagel and her Hi Bagel Obsession with, with Chicken Purse <laugh>. Like she just wanted, come on Bagel. Come on. I don't know. Bagel. No. Stop. Stop

Lindsay (01:27:37):

Trying to eat

Renee (01:27:39):

Chicken Purse <laugh>. You want the Chicken <laugh>

Moby (01:27:41):

Bagel? Oh my God. You, the Chicken purse. Is it your, is it your new girlfriend? Boyfriend <laugh>.

Renee (01:27:47):

So anyway,

Moby (01:27:49):

No Bagel Bagel.

Lindsay (01:27:50):

Stop it. Come here. Go eat their, go eat the

Moby (01:27:54):

Horns.

Renee (01:27:55):

Go eat the horns. Instead

Lindsay (01:27:57):

Go lay down. Go lay down

Moby (01:27:58):

Or come up here or go play.

Renee (01:28:01):

So anyway, as I was saying, you wanna become a member because we have more fun than ever at Rowdy Girl. You know, we do. We have a lot of fun. And we need to be able to take our story of transition into the world. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Um, you know, another way you can help, uh, if you don't like to do the monthly thing, I mean, we hope you do, but we have the Rowdy Girl Impact Tour. We recently got a $50,000 match for that. And so we are actively trying to get the other half so that we can take Rowdy Girl into every state in the United States and all the artsy theaters. I'm gonna actually bring my guitar next time and I'm gonna,

Lindsay (01:28:37):

Oh my gosh, I wish you would had it

Renee (01:28:38):

This time, because I'm gonna bring, boy, do I

Lindsay (01:28:40):

Guitar, hear a song,

Renee (01:28:41):

Guitar. I'm gonna bring my guitar next time.

Lindsay (01:28:42):

One of the things I love most about the film is when you would just break out into song and just like, improvise these songs to the cows or to, it was just so fun and sweet and lighthearted and ugh. Yeah. I just, your, your musical life, I think is such a beautiful thing. A beautiful part of all of it, you know,

Renee (01:29:01):

You know, I, I'm so glad I've got those on tape, you know, that they're recording because I don't remember what I do. You know, like Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I do like, remember little mantras and chants that I do like, 'cause I always do like special little songs to the Ducks. And like, um, Henry The New Goose, you know, I'll sing a little song like, uh, um, Henry the <laugh>, Henry the Eighth. I am, I'll sing to him and make up little songs for all the, the animals, but they don't get recorded. And so to listen to the documentary and to hear those back is, um, maybe I'll do a, I don't know, maybe one day I'll do it on purpose and make a little album of it all.

Lindsay (01:29:38):

Mm-Hmm. I would love that. Fantastic. I also feel like there needs to be some compilation album of the absurd songs we all sing to our pets, because boy, do things get weird. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah.

Renee (01:29:48):

Think A Proud To Grow Impact Tour is a good way.

Lindsay (01:29:49):

Yeah. Yeah. Impact Tour is amazing. And then we will, I will, in the show notes, if you're listening, I will have all of this information there. So there will be links, links there for you to just easily pop over to and see Renee's socials and where you can join her movement.

Moby (01:30:06):

And then, so you sort of have touched on this, like in terms of what's next.

Renee (01:30:10):

Yeah. So the book, I wish I could tell you the publisher, it's a big one, uh, that's involved and likes the book. I'm meeting with her on Monday.

Moby (01:30:18):

And also, I, I imagine anyone looking at your story, like the memoir that, you know, this secret diary of a cattle rancher, his wife, like your ability, you've already done a ton of this, but going on big media because your story is so completely unique Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. There isn't a major global media outlet that wouldn't want to talk to you. And I imagine a publisher is sort of salivating at that. Yeah. Like, wow, we can have this story and we have an author that everyone will want to talk to.

Renee (01:30:49):

That's kind of what's I'm getting. I'm getting that. And so it's very humbling for me. It, it really is because to, to have a platform where I can just sit and be myself and not be anything else other than what happened to me, and have that change people's lives and hearts for animals, that's what makes everything I've been through worth it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, everything. If I, if my life can matter for that. And the book goes into everything. It talks about the abuse, it talks about the yoga, it talks about, you know, all of the, you know, aa it talks about everything in my whole life. And, and I, and I bring it all always back to the animals. Everything I talk about, I'll weave a story and then I'll bring it back to how animals have it worse. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, uh, and so if my story can matter for them in a big way, then I, I know why I'm here and this is why I'm put on this planet. That's why all that stuff happened to me. 'cause I don't, you know, there's all kind of ways you can take what happens to you. I mean, we all are victims, uh, in this world typically. And violent things happen to people. But how we perceive it and how we look at it, we all have control over that. And that's

Moby (01:32:01):

What I, I mean, I mean the famous Ernest Hemingway quote that I'm sort of paraphrasing, it's like every, everybody, the world breaks everyone, but some of us are stronger in the broken places.

Renee (01:32:11):

I love that. I've never heard that. That's

Moby (01:32:13):

Why our friend Hunter Biden, his book is called The Broken Places.

Renee (01:32:18):

Oh.

Moby (01:32:18):

Named after that.

Renee (01:32:19):

I want say that one more time.

Moby (01:32:21):

Uh, and I'm paraphrasing, I should memorize it. The world breaks everyone, but some of us are stronger in the broken places.

Renee (01:32:28):

I'm stronger in the broken places moment. Yeah. I'm really strong in the broken places. In fact, one of the things I say all the time is, you know, sometimes being in the moment is not enough for me. I have to be between the seconds.

Moby (01:32:43):

Mm-Hmm.

Renee (01:32:44):

<affirmative>, it's between the seconds is where God really is. For me. It's in that gap of my consciousness where nothing exists and everything is

Moby (01:32:53):

Yeah. One second at a time. Yeah.

Renee (01:32:55):

Yeah. In between 'em actually Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, it's in between 'em. I, I remember going through that third flood, you know, and I thought I could never, ever go through another catastrophe, like, climactic event like we did. You know, it's one thing to move yourself from a flood, but when you have to move animals, watching all these farmers and ranchers letting their animals die, 'cause they get subsidies. It was so, so hard. And I had to live between seconds. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, or I would've ended up in the hospital. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, I had to lead an entire disaster recovery event. Not once, not twice, but three times, uh, three times out of four years.

Moby (01:33:33):

Yikes. And

Renee (01:33:34):

That was hard. So I really learned to rely on that power, you know.

Moby (01:33:40):

Um, well, Lindsay, I I was, I, I, I would just love to say thank you for everything that you do. Thank you for occupying such a powerful, unique place in the animal rights movement. Um, Lynn.

Lindsay (01:33:51):

Well, I mean, you are always so forthcoming. I guess one of the things that I'm thrilled about is that you are doing this Impact tour and that people in other cities will get to have that experience of seeing this film, seeing Rowdy Girl, which is such a beautiful piece of activism, I think, because it's not shouting from the rooftops or telling anyone to do anything. It's this beautiful snapshot of your life and your world. And I think people get to kind of live in that with you for a little while and see how beautiful it can be and how powerful you are. And I'm just so excited for, for more people to get their eyes on it.

Renee (01:34:34):

Thank you. Mm-Hmm. Thank you. I had great reception last night. Some of the feedback was, was exactly that, that the film gave them a way to plug back into their activism in a, in a way that they had never even knew they could. Yep. So that was really refreshing.

Lindsay (01:34:49):

Yeah. So I'm excited for people to see more of it and to get to know you better with your book and with the film, and to follow you and, and help in this journey of transitioning farms and helping people make these huge changes in their lives, whether it's just their diet or their business or, or whatever it is. I think, you know, we're all, I'm, I'm behind you, and I hope that as, as this goes on, more and more people will, will stand with you and with us in that part of the, the path that you're kind of forging.

Renee (01:35:24):

Thank you, Lindsay. Thank you. Moby. Been an honor.

Moby (01:35:27):

Well thanks. Thanks

Lindsay (01:35:29):

<laugh>.

Moby (01:35:38):

Okay. So Lindsay Moby, we just had a wonderful conversation with Renee, rowdy Girl,

Lindsay (01:35:43):

An animal rights hero, and a Texan legend.

Moby (01:35:47):

And one of the most fascinating, complicated stories, like, for example, my vegan origin story is not that interesting or unique. I grew up in the suburbs. I ate at McDonald's when I was 19. I went vegetarian. And a few years after that went vegan. Like my story is shared by most vegans who grew up in the suburbs. Don't

Lindsay (01:36:07):

Discount or demean your

Moby (falsetto) (01:36:08):

Experience's. Not necessarily dis demeaning. I discounting it. I'm <laugh>. I don't know why. What happened all of a sudden, this is how I talk. Are you Mickey Mouse?

Lindsay (01:36:16):

What's happening? <laugh>?

Moby (falsetto) (01:36:19):

Yeah. It's just my new voice. No.

Lindsay (01:36:22):

Oh, thank

Moby (01:36:22):

God. So

Moby (falsetto) (01:36:24):

<laugh>.

Moby (01:36:25):

So, but my story is like a lot of people who grew up in the suburbs have my same story, whereas Renee's of like the country Western singing alcoholic cattle, rancher becoming a Daoist vegan, like she's the only person I know who has that story.

Lindsay (01:36:40):

It's very unique. I wish it was less unique. I hope that Renee can serve as at least a reminder that you can change your life and make your life better and more beautiful at literally any point. And things could get real cool if you

Moby (01:36:55):

Do. Yeah. And one thing, for example, in the Rowdy Girl movie, as directed by our friend Jason Goldman, one thing that really surprised me in that movie is when she interacts with her neighbors. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Like, 'cause the fellow Texans, these are ranchers, these are tough guys. They're so thoughtful and sensitive. Yeah. Just that reminder that things are not monolithic. Yeah, sure. There are those people who occupy their stereotype, but then everybody else is sort of more on a spectrum.

Lindsay (01:37:26):

I think it's also, it's very easy for people that aren't familiar with the space to generalize, but because I'm from there, I know that even people who their life is killing animals, they will also treat you like a king and take care of you and be the most hospitable, sweet, funny, charming people Yeah. On the planet. You know, because

Moby (01:37:44):

There is, I mean, we live in a country and world that is so polarized, and especially social media and media in general seems to sort of like treat the opposition like this one dimensional, monolithic thing. Yeah. And just being reminded like there's nuance and subtlety to everyone.

Lindsay (01:38:01):

Yeah. I think that evil has won a little bit if you make too many assumptions about who people are without knowing them.

Moby (01:38:06):

A hundred percent. So before we say goodbye, I just wanna remind people that in two weeks we have our incredibly special part one making of the album play episode with live acoustic versions with Lady Blackbird. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And then two weeks after that, we have part two of the album play with more acoustic songs and great video. I mean, we really went out over the top, uh, making the video. Especially, we had like 20 cameras there, uh,

Lindsay (01:38:35):

Maybe a hundred.

Moby (01:38:36):

They were like a hundred cameras. And they're all the best cameras that were handmade by elves. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And the glass was actually not glass, it's just crystal made out of licorice fibers, poop, and unicorn. So we have two incredibly special episodes coming up. Do you wanna say thanks and things?

Lindsay (01:38:54):

Oh, yeah. I'd love to. I would love to say thank you to Erin Stehnler who's recording the video right now. Yeah. Um, and then I wanna say thank you to Jonathan Nesvadba who edits these episodes like a masterful person. And I also wanna say thank you to Bagel who's resting gently, but who also wore a cowboy hat for a long time earlier. And that was really hard for her. And I would just like to commend her for her bravery.

Moby (01:39:16):

She's the real hero. Mm-Hmm.

Lindsay (01:39:18):

<affirmative>. And then I would also like to thank Huma Content, our dear friends there who put this podcast out into the planet for listening. And

Moby (01:39:26):

Thanks Renee, and thanks Tommy. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And thanks Jason Goldman for making the movie. And,

Lindsay (01:39:31):

And thanks cows. Thanks cows for being cute and having nice personalities.

Moby (01:39:35):

Yep. And being incredibly wise and stable. Mm-Hmm.

Lindsay (01:39:39):

<affirmative>. Okay. May we all be so wise and stable

Moby (01:39:41):

And thank you to whoever made these vegan cowboy hats that were continuing to wear <laugh>. And I feel like cut back to us five hours from now. It's like, why is my head sweating so much? Oh, it's, um,

Lindsay (01:39:50):

I cannot take off hat

Moby (01:39:51):

Wearing cowboy hats like tomorrow morning or like three days from now, you're like, your cowboy hat's starting to smell. Maybe it's time to take it off and you'll

Lindsay (01:39:58):

Be like, nah.

Moby (01:39:59):

So, okay. So thanks to everybody, including cowboy hat manufacturers, making vegan cowboy hats, and we will talk to you in two weeks. Okay. Bye.