Moby (00:00:08):

Lindsay

Lindsay (00:00:10):

Moby

Moby (00:00:10):

Hagel, Moby. Uh, so today <laugh> on the Moby Pod Popular Entertainment Program, <laugh>, we're going to be talking to one of my dear friends who's also arguably the most successful DJ in DJ history. Armand Van Buren.

Lindsay (00:00:30):

He is wildly, wildly successful. He really has changed the game in so many ways, but one of the exciting reasons why we had him on now is because you guys did something really fun together.

Moby (00:00:43):

Oh. So, yeah. So we DJ'ed together a while ago. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Maybe once or twice. And then earlier in 2024, he reached out to me 'cause he had done a remix of the song Extreme Ways. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I was like, okay, how, how does one do a big club trance version of extreme ways? And he sent it through to me and I was kind of blown away.

Lindsay (00:01:09):

I mean, it's really cool what he does. And I've seen video of the, of the performance. I think he opens with it mm-hmm <affirmative>. When he, when he does shows. And he has this like, huge projection of you behind him. And that's how he's opening his shows now with this amazing remix.

Moby (00:01:26):

So that just came out, uh, which is sort of, I guess one of the reasons why we're gonna talk to Armand, but also even more importantly than that, is he's, Armin is smart and has, you know, has dealt with a lot of mental health issues and is incredibly insightful.

Lindsay (00:01:43):

Yes. It was really, really fascinating. But also to have him here and knowing how accomplished this man is, I mean, he's, he's obviously, he's a dj, he's a producer. He also hosts this, uh, a radio show called State of Trance. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. That's a massive, massive radio show. Um,

Moby (00:02:01):

He sold out Madison Square Garden. He

Lindsay (00:02:03):

Sold out Madison Square Garden

Moby (00:02:05):

Just as one person. By the way, bagel is, her tail is hitting the microphone. She's

Lindsay (00:02:09):

Like this thing on. He just

Moby (00:02:10):

Pretend that that's DJing. Yeah.

Lindsay (00:02:14):

Uh oh. Um, okay. You wanna come back up here?

Moby (00:02:15):

Come on. So yeah, sold out Madison Square Garden and he was DJ magazine's DJ of the year, five times in

Lindsay (00:02:23):

Four consecutive years.

Moby (00:02:24):

I don't fully understand chronologically how that works,

Lindsay (00:02:27):

<laugh>, but it's impressive.

Moby (00:02:28):

So five times as DJ of the Year voted by the readers voted by Yeah. Fans. So, I'm, I'm,

Lindsay (00:02:36):

He's also, he's the first trance DJ to be nominated for a Grammy. Yep. Very cool bagels.

Moby (00:02:42):

So, um, bagels are rubbing up against your microphone. So in any case, I don't know if we've accomplished the height of professionalism I was sort of aspiring towards,

Lindsay (00:02:52):

I think, you know, it's a journey. Baby steps. Okay.

Moby (00:02:55):

Okay. But in any case, let's stop with our professional introduction and let's go talk to Arman. Yay. I have a million questions for you.

Armin (00:03:10):

Let's go. I

Lindsay (00:03:11):

Also have a million questions for you. I'm

Armin (00:03:13):

Excited to be here.

Lindsay (00:03:14):

Don't be afraid. Don't be afraid. So, Arman, I just have say, I'm really grateful that you stopped by because you might be the busiest person ever.

Armin (00:03:22):

Oh, thank you so much, <laugh>. Well, I'm, I'm really, I feel honored. I mean, I, I, I, I'm a big fan. I read your bio, uh, which was a great read, by the way. I recognize a lot. And you, you know, you feel like one of the founders of the things that I still do today. You know, I know you're still performing as well. We're happy to, to see that. But, um, yeah, I just saw, I mean, I just, uh, did this radio show and, uh, we had Chrissy's version of Go On mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I introduced it as, uh, this is one of the very first tunes I danced to myself. So this is 92, I think, when Go came out. And, uh, I remember I was 16, 17 years old, and it's one of the very first tunes that made me realize why the hell my higher power put me on this planet. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Uh, because it now makes sense, you know, i's it's no coincidence. I think I was born in 1976, which is, I think around, around the year that the techniques turntable, the SL 1200 turntable was invented. But also the year that Roland's tr 9 0 9 was invented, and Star Wars came. I mean, it's like <laugh> my higher power said, you need to come to Earth. 'cause there's a lot of interesting stuff happening. And,

Moby (00:04:27):

And, and also that was right in the middle of disco and possibly when the single greatest electronic music song of all time was released, I Feel Love by the song. Oh, absolutely.

Armin (00:04:40):

Like Patrick Ali's version.

Moby (00:04:41):

You know, I still, I, I, every now and then when I'm DJing, I'll play, I feel love, and I'll be like, wow, there's been a lot of amazing electronic music since then. How is it that this is still the best? It's

Armin (00:04:54):

So true.

Moby (00:04:55):

Um, but I wanna get into music and electronics and science fiction and everything, and we

Lindsay (00:05:03):

Will, but we also, it

Moby (00:05:05):

Will happen also. And I, it's, and I have to, it's hard because I wanna jump into that right now. But I also wanna know who you are and where you're from. And like, when I get to know people, it's really nice to sort of, we start at the very beginning. Like, where were you born and when, well,

Armin (00:05:23):

First of all, I'm from the Netherlands mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, which is the capital of Denmark. We always make that joke, <laugh>. And, um, it's a small city. My dad was a doctor, a GP

Moby (00:05:34):

Where,

Armin (00:05:35):

Uh, in a small city called <inaudible>, which is, uh, I would say about 25 minutes south of Amsterdam. Okay.

Moby (00:05:41):

So is that, I'm just gonna throw out some, is that near Verso Atal?

Armin (00:05:45):

Uh, no, no, it's about an hour drive. Well, Holland is really small. If you, if you drive anywhere from Holland, you know, you're, you're in Germany or in Belgium, or even further, it's, uh, I would like to say I'm a European, not so much a a a Dutch person, although I love the Dutch culture, and I'm super proud of, uh, to be Dutch, you know. Um, but my dad had to work really hard, and he didn't have, uh, such an easy childhood as I did. But my dad was, so my dad was listening to like, uh, really obscure music at the time, Klau Gel Jean Jar, which was, in hindsight, the first electronic music. And as a kid, I was fascinated. I remember there's pictures of me in my diaper staring at my dad's reel to reel, uh, machine.

Moby (00:06:27):

Oh, so he was an audio file? Yeah. Like when,

Lindsay (00:06:30):

What is a reel to reel machine? A

Moby (00:06:31):

Reel reel? Well, it can mean many things. It's basically open reel tape. Um, so usually it was quarter inch or half inch, uh, one inch, two inch. It's basically, that's the, that's the width of the tape. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. A cassette, for example, is a reel to reel, but inside a little plastic cassette housing. I see. So in back in the, so

Lindsay (00:06:54):

Did you just buy a reel?

Moby (00:06:56):

You'd b but they're big, big reels. And you would, if you were an audio file back then, it was the only way to listen to an uninterrupted album.

Lindsay (00:07:04):

Oh. Because otherwise you're flipping a Yeah, so it's a different

Moby (00:07:08):

Track. So in the fifties, probably fifties, sixties, seventies, maybe even into the eighties, the real audio files primarily listen to reel to reel. And so you'd have like walls of albums on reel to reel, and your dad was clearly one of them.

Armin (00:07:23):

And that was, uh, well, we had, we lived in this old house, beautiful house next to the, the Rhine River. And, uh, it, it had, uh, wooden floors, cardboard floors. So, and my room was exactly above, uh, the room that my dad would used to listen to this electronic music really loud. And he, she used to drink a little, and then he'd turn up the music really loud, <laugh>. And my mom was always super afraid that I was wake up and I woke up. But I found, I found that feeling very comfortable. 'cause I, I could only hear like the bass and the mids a little bit. I couldn't hear the highs, but I just love that feeling, knowing that they were home. I was safe. And listening to these weird electronic sounds, which were, at the time very, very, very experimental. I mean, I still don't understand why my dad loved that music. Tenuring Dream Klau Schultz, uh, you know,

Moby (00:08:08):

I mean, it was the music of the future. Absolutely. It sounded like this clean ama it was basically science fiction in musical form.

Armin (00:08:16):

Absolutely. Well, I, I like always like to point out this, this, that fact that in the sixties, the synthesizer was regarded by many people as a not a musical instrument. Uh, you know, the synthesizer was invented, of course, 1940s, fifties and stuff. It was, was an experiment by a lot of people in white coats. And you would be crazy to call that the MOOC synthesizer an in an instrument. For a long time, people considered a guitar, an electric guitar, you know, the Beatles, that, that's it. Until the Beatles started using a MOOC synthesizer on the white album. And, you know, Walter Carlos switched on. Bach came, all of a sudden electronic music was considered, Hey, maybe this is interesting. Maybe you should should look at this. And some people pioneered it. And that's how we know now electronic music, you know, it's, it's pretty strange to see actually where it comes from and what it's now in

Moby (00:09:06):

History. It's funny, we actually, so Lindsay and I have a film and TV production company, and one of the projects we first wanted to do, and we didn't do, and now you're reminding me maybe we should do it, was a history of electronic music. Because as you're right, it started in the early 20th century with academics, you know, at Bell Labs, at Princeton, you know, at Oxford making just sound

Lindsay (00:09:31):

On giant, giant computers that take up like

Moby (00:09:34):

Yeah, yeah. And it's, so what's what's especially fascinating, and we're getting ahead of ourselves a bit, is how it went from like six white guys in white coats at Princeton to suddenly becoming hip hop and becoming house music. And it became the most egalitarian form of music in the world. Whereas at one point it was those five guys in lab coats in a laboratory at Princeton. Just making space age sounds like the least

Lindsay (00:10:00):

Accessible to the most accessible.

Moby (00:10:03):

And so I'm really fascinated the, so this, this early electronic music and Lindsay, 'cause Lindsay's younger than me and <laugh>. Um, so I don't, I, and I'm not trying to throw you under the bus or anything. No. Do it. But you're, are you, you're not, are you familiar with like Jean Michel Jar Tangerine Dream, Klau Schultz?

Lindsay (00:10:23):

No, I'm not.

Moby (00:10:23):

Okay. Yeah. Very few people are. That's why I got all excited. When you mentioned these records, have you, you've met Jean Michel zr?

Armin (00:10:31):

I made music with him, actually a lot.

Moby (00:10:33):

Yeah. And, and, uh, who's the huge composer? The film composer? I can't remember his name. Uh,

Armin (00:10:41):

Han

Moby (00:10:41):

Zimmer. Han Zimmer is on it. Yeah. And so I did a panel with, um, Jean Michel and Han Zimmer and Gary Newman and a few other people. And I was like, this is the weirdest wow. Gathering of electronic musician nerds. Um, yeah. So, so sorry for that tangent. But it's so interesting that you were sort of exposed to electronic music almost in the womb.

Armin (00:11:05):

I was a, I'm a fan. I still am, I guess, I guess it's super important to be a fan. I, I really couldn't know. I couldn't do anything else. I mean, I studied law to please my parents, you know? Uh, but I never thought, I never had the arrogance to think that I'd ever, ever be successful as a dj. You know, there's so many people out there who really do a good job at electronic music. And, uh, and at the time you had the dj and you had the producer, you know, the DJs were, you know, Sasha and, and John Dewe and Cau, they were the cool dudes and the, the nerds, hence me, who were the guys with the white labels pressed against their show, uh, uh, belly, hoping that they could put a white label in the record box of, of those big DJs. And I, I guess a few years later,

Moby (00:11:50):

I need to tell what a white label is.

Armin (00:11:52):

A white label is, um, uh, a first pressing, usually it was used to, to test if the, if the, if the record pressing went okay. Kind of to promote the record without, you know, the official label on it yet, or the nice sleeve. It was just a white label just to test if the audio was, you know, if the cut, the vinyl cut was, was okay. Usually

Moby (00:12:10):

With the information written on a pen. So like, basically you get this record, it'd be a white sleeve, white label, and it would say, I don't know, Moby Go tp, meaning test pressing. Yeah. But then because they were so obscure, a lot of record labels started only releasing white labels to sort of fool DJs into thinking that they had some exclusive test pressing. They'd make 10,000 of them and they'd all look like exclusive test

Armin (00:12:37):

Pressing. And I think my career took off in a time where for the first time, the nerds actually, they came from the wall and they started taking over the decks. So I am the nerd, 'cause I started as a producer. I was in bedroom, the, uh, producer for a long, long time way before I actually had the room to dj. I always wanted to dj DJ at a school parties, wherever I could start. And I dj, I started DJing in a room not bigger than this one. And, uh, there was maximum capacity. It was 50 people. But in hindsight, that's where I learned how to dj. Honestly, it's easy to dj, easier to DJ in front of 10,000 people. 'cause they're there to party and they know your name and they know your big hits. And that's what's gonna happen. But I really, I really have a lot of respect for all those DJs out there who are, uh, have no name. And they have to, like, they're in a bar and there's four guys and two half cute girls. And they have to make everybody dance and keep the attention. That's a lot harder than DJing in front of 10,000 people.

Moby (00:13:35):

And also, I mean, like when I started DJing, I was playing six hours a night in a dive bar, and I was playing Monday nights. There were maybe seven people there, and I got paid $20

Armin (00:13:47):

<laugh>.

Moby (00:13:48):

And the, you had to play everything. Yeah. You know, if someone wanted to hear Johnny Cash, you played Johnny Cash. If someone wanted to hear the Sex Pistols, you played the Sex Pistols.

Armin (00:13:55):

Exactly. That's what I did. Yeah.

Moby (00:13:56):

If someone wanted to hear hip hop, you played, like, basically if you couldn't read the crowd and respond to them, got fired.

Armin (00:14:04):

Oh, that's the art of DJing. I always call it the art of the moment. A lot of people think, like, I mean, DJing was looked down upon for a long time, especially about bands. And, and I, I understand you're not, I mean, we're not playing the guitar live on stage, but I call it the art of the moment because you're playing that track at that moment for that crowd. You are, you know, basically enhancing the mood of the crowd, which is what a band can't do. 'cause a band usually has a set list. Yeah.

Lindsay (00:14:30):

And it's also, I, I think, and you could speak to this too, more about like intuition. Yeah. You know, it's just kind of having to be so in tune with the room that you know what to do next.

Armin (00:14:41):

Learning how to read a crowd is a craft. Yeah. I mean, otherwise you could just put iTunes on or Spotify on Shuffle. Yeah. You know? Yeah. But what makes you better than iTunes on Shuffle. Think about it. It, yeah.

Moby (00:14:52):

Um, so, okay, so early nineties, when did, when did you start making your own electronic music? And also the nerd in me wants to know what equipment you were using.

Armin (00:15:02):

My dad bought a Roland Jakes three piece synthesizer from his hard earned money. And, uh, of course I stole it as soon as I could. And, um, through a family member, I got an Atari St 25 20 with a cracked version of Cubase. And this is 1991. And with a paper route, I had, uh, an a Kai SO one sampler, which was my basic one. And I had a disco mixer. And with the self soldered cables, I had mm-hmm <affirmative>. Everything hooked together. And I sampled everything, whether it was my mom on a phone or, uh, I don't know any records that I could get my hands on. And I just knew that thing inside out. And I started experimenting never, ever with the idea of, okay, I'm gonna make a career out of this. Never ever, I never had the arrogance to think that would be successful.

Armin (00:15:50):

And in 1992, already one of my first demos got picked up for a compilation cd and I just started fooling around. And, uh, I quickly found my way back to my, my dad's music trans, which was kind of the sound I was into at the time. Even though the word trans hadn't been invented, it really didn't came into swing until like 97, 98. Um, but I was already producing that kind of sound 'cause I just loved it. And there were no rules. I just loved, I mean, I felt most happy when I was in my pa uh, parents' bedroom upstairs in my bedroom. And I had my equipment around and it was a Friday night, just had a great dinner. I went upstairs and I was just nerding around like, oh,

Moby (00:16:27):

It's the greatest thing.

Armin (00:16:29):

It, I just, I just had my underwear on. I was just, you know, yeah. Nerding away. And, and that feeling of freedom is still the feeling of freedom that I'm looking for when I'm producing today

Moby (00:16:37):

In a broader contextual sense. The one thing I will say, and Lindsay, you and I have discussed this before, is electronic music now is amazing. But you can make perfect electronic music with your phone. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Yes. You know, and it doesn't while cooking. Yeah. Yeah. And it doesn't cost a penny. You can, it was all this, I mean, the software is amazing. Anybody can do it and it's great. But back then it was, okay, I'm gonna work for a year and a half to buy an Aki s 900 sampler, and I'm gonna work another six months to buy that one megabyte of memory, and I'm gonna figure out how to use it and I'm gonna learn it inside and out. Inside out. And it was, and, and as a result, the 1, 2, 2 wonderful things about that one, as a result, there weren't too many people doing it. 'cause it was so challenging. Just finding the equipment, saving up the money to buy it, figuring out how to make it work. Especially if you're like getting a din sink converter, converting things to MIDI that weren't midi. Yeah. Um, but the other amazing aspect of it, everybody had a different studio as a result. Every record sounded different. You know, like you hear a

Lindsay (00:17:48):

Record, it all, it all only matters what equipment you have. And nobody has all the exact, exact same.

Armin (00:17:52):

Every, every TR 9 0 9 sounded different.

Moby (00:17:55):

Yeah. That's, that's the drum machine. How So? The TR 9 0 9, there're two really legendary drum machines. There's the TR 8 0 8, which now is basically every hip hop song on the planet, even though the 8 0 8 was invented in the seventies. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And the TR 9 0 9 was basically every house music song on the planet. Like, if you heard it, you'd be like, oh, that's it. And it's these two drum machines made in Japan in the seventies. Um, I mean, the TR 9 0 9 was interesting 'cause it was that analog digital hybrid

Lindsay (00:18:27):

<laugh>. Sorry. That's, it's amazing. But

Armin (00:18:29):

You know why these machines were invented? They were invented because of disco. And DJs wanted to mix those records. And the problem with those records was they were not in in time. You know, now you buy a record and if you, if it's 132 BPM, you know that it's 132 PPM straight. But if you have a real drummer, you know, he does this with his foot, and if the chorus comes, he goes faster. 'cause he gets excited. So the tempo goes a little bit up. Mm. But that sucks. If you wanna mix

Moby (00:18:54):

As a dj, it's, it's, so I, I'm sure you've experienced this a hundred times. Like you're DJing, you've got your 20 people dancing in the dive bar, you set up your perfect mix. And when you go to mix, you realize the drummer has just started playing faster. It sounds like a bag full of cats and tin cans falling down a flight of stairs,

Lindsay (00:19:14):

<laugh>. Um, I mean, yeah, that must be incredibly, but, so, but so then you found, and forgive me, because we did do a DJ lesson, but there's still things, I don't know, you could then change, manipulate the drum beats. What are you saying <laugh>? Help me understand.

Armin (00:19:31):

No, so the tier 9 0 9 and 8 0 8 were initially not, it was not meant for those sounds to ever be recorded. They were just for the drummer to stay in sync. Oh,

Lindsay (00:19:40):

Okay.

Armin (00:19:40):

You know, and, but we started using those sounds or we, the dance world started using those sounds for, you know, and they're iconic. Like the, everybody knows, everybody knows the sound of an 8 0 8 or 9 0 9 even you without note, I promise

Moby (00:19:54):

You every every hip hop song made in the last 30 years is an 8 0 8. Either 8 0 8 drum machine, or a 8 0 8 drum sample. And same thing with the, if you've heard a house music song ever, it's the 9 0 9.

Lindsay (00:20:09):

Fascinating. Yeah. Why is the difference,

Moby (00:20:12):

The 8 0 8?

Lindsay (00:20:13):

Why did they choose, why do, why not do use the 8 0 8 for house music?

Moby (00:20:18):

'cause the 8 0 8, it's okay. I'm I'll, I'll try. And I, I don't wanna, because I could go deep down a rabbit hole <laugh>, but a lot of the 8 0 8 is a very, the, the kick drum. It, it, you know, when you hear a hip hop song and it goes, the kick drum goes, boom.

Lindsay (00:20:35):

Yes.

Moby (00:20:36):

That's the 8 0 8. Whereas the 9 0 9 goes oof. Like, it's more of like a,

Lindsay (00:20:41):

Like a tighter little.

Moby (00:20:43):

And so hip hop is slower. So it goes boom, boom, boom.

Lindsay (00:20:48):

Yes, yes, yes. Okay.

Moby (00:20:49):

And house music is boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. So that's, there you go with, you can change the sounds, but generally speaking, and did I just embarrass myself on camera quite a lot by imitating drum

Lindsay (00:21:00):

Machines? No, no, that was actually really helpful. I, I genuinely understand it from what you just did. So here's my question. So you're gathering all of this equipment. When you decided to make your demos, your first demos, what was that process like? Like had you, did you just learn from other people and you're like, you know what, it's copying. I love this, this sound, and I'm just going to put on a demo. And then once you have it, what do you do with it? Demo. Uh,

Armin (00:21:26):

I still remember, I get goosebumps thinking about that a time when I was just being so experimental. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Just like, I love this sound. I'm gonna make a track with it. I love this sample. I love it so much. I'm going to use it. Like, my track Blue Fear is from 1996. I remember making it on a Friday night and just as a B side for a track called X Marks the Spot, which I already had finished. And the label asked, 'cause you know, a record at the time had two sides. Yeah. So you were never just releasing one track. It was always, they did a B side. So I made this track, uh, which I, uh, initially named, uh, blue Fear named after, uh, 'cause I was bullied by some guys and I was afraid to go out. So I was afraid to go out Blue had blue fear.

Armin (00:22:07):

And, uh, I remember that track and it came out and I was super proud of it. It was the first time I actually used a proper bass, bass drum in the track. And, uh, I just started being completely experimental with it. 'cause I was thought, Hey, it's a B side. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So who cares? You know? Yeah. And, uh, that track ended up being the, uh, the A side and s qui of, and didn't even know who that were at the time. Who, who they were. And they, uh, used it on one of their compilations. Now the compilation CDs was a, was was a CD with the best, uh, vinyl at the time, just compiled by a famous dj. And they used to sell, I think like, some ridiculous amount of number, like 500,000 copies of that. And they would go across the counter for $23 per cd. Can you imagine? So if you were one track on a compilation that would sell that much, you'd get a lot of money. And I was not used to that kind of money. So I remember showing my dad the income from one track on, one compilation on a statement that I got. And there was something like, I don't know, I made something like, uh, $15,000 with extra time. It still, it's a lot of money, but especially for me at the time, having no money at all showing to my dad. And my dad was like,

Lindsay (00:23:18):

<laugh>. Yeah.

Armin (00:23:19):

What is that? I said that, that's from that compilation. He's,

Moby (00:23:23):

It's like you, he's like, you made this upstairs in your underpants. And I

Armin (00:23:26):

Did that <laugh>. And that's basically what set the, the, the foundation for everything. I, I did later. Because with the $15,000, I properly invested them. And then my dad said, uh, okay, we're going, we're going downstairs. It was one little room up, uh, downstairs, which was used as the APO apothecary, uh, at my dad's, uh, uh, office. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And they used to sell like, yeah. And right now you have like, uh, I don't know, where do you go CVS to buy medicine? At the time? My dad used to have one, but that, uh, got, I was out of the house, so that room was empty. And, uh, he, he let me have that room and I built a sort of proper studio there. And that's where it really took off. 'cause I bought proper speakers. I had a proper mixer. I was able to What mixer? Uh, it was the Soundcraft ghost.

Moby (00:24:12):

I had the Soundcraft spirit. Okay. So my album play was made on the Soundcraft. Really?

Armin (00:24:16):

Awesome. Awesome. At first I had a 24 channel. And then, oh, I was able to buy a 32 channel. Oh my God. I could mix 32 channels at the same time. It's like

Moby (00:24:25):

A million channels. Um, so going, going back a couple years, so early nineties, what records or producers inspired you go? Like 90, 91 to 94?

Armin (00:24:39):

What I, uh, in Holland, one of the reasons people always ask me, why do so many DJs come out of the Netherlands? And I guess one of the answers to that is that at the time we had quite a few very, very progressive radio shows. I mean, Holland is very literal country. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Everybody knows there are soft drugs policy, but,

Moby (00:24:57):

And the Queen rides a bike.

Armin (00:24:58):

Exactly. So we're we're Wait, soft

Moby (00:25:00):

Drugs policy?

Armin (00:25:01):

Sorry? Soft

Moby (00:25:02):

Drugs. Yeah. For the longest time. Yeah. What does that mean? Can Cannabis was sort of le Cannabis and hash were basically legal in the Netherlands. We

Armin (00:25:08):

Were known for that decades. Decades

Moby (00:25:10):

Before.

Armin (00:25:10):

That's the reason why I never smoked pot in my life. 'cause for us it was not cool 'cause it was every, at every street corner. Yeah. So, I mean, what, what's the big point? The only people that were smoking pot in our country were English people coming to the Netherlands for a weekend. And 'cause for in us it wasn't legal, but it was allowed sort of, people weren't pursuing whatever. Um, so also our, our dance music culture was already embraced at a early age. Like the public funded government radio stations had proper dance music radio shows already in 91, 92. And I had cassette tapes with, with all those things. Your Chong Go was on our radio Yeah. During the day. Like, it was that popular. And, uh, but all with that was the Prodigy. And now I know the names. At the time there was no internet, there was no YouTube, there was no disco cogs.

Armin (00:25:58):

There was no, no way to, no Shazam. You had to, if you wanted to know the title of a song, you had to go to a record store and, and play from your Walkman. Play it to the guy behind the counter, hoping that he would know what that was. And for a long time, I had no idea what, what this great music was that I was hearing on the radio. So riding my bike to school, I had this big yellow Walkman. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I used to listen to those recordings from the radio. And that's how I basically got my dance music education. I was not old enough to go clubbing myself. Uh, I couldn't go out 'cause I was refused everywhere I was 16, 17. My parents used to used to hate dance music. That's why I loved it. <laugh> uh, I found my friends through it because that's in school. It was the cool thing, you know, uh, uh, I have a cassette tape with Moby Go, you know, listen to this and I can make seamless transitions with it. And, you know, uh, a few, a few of us have money to buy belt driven turntables. We didn't have money for the techniques. SL 1200. No, we,

Moby (00:26:55):

I need to explain that to Lindsay. Sorry. To belt belt driven. So turntable, you know, vinyl turntables. Yeah. Yeah. So most turntables we all grew up with were belt driven, which basically, literally meant a belt spun the platter at 33 or 45, uh, RPMs. But, and they're great, but they're not powerful. So like, if you're DJing, you want be able to start the record immediately. You know, like, boom, I'm, I'm, here's, I'm queued it up to the beat. I let it go right on there. And immediately in less than a second is playing at its regular speed. Belt driven was kind of a weak platter turning technology, but they

Armin (00:27:35):

Were cheaper.

Moby (00:27:36):

Much cheaper. And, but all of us have tried to DJ with Belt Driven things and it's like, oh, it just doesn't work. And then the 1200, which each do, I have one here. I have one inside each one weigh. 'cause they're, they're so heavy and they're so big and they're so expensive, but they're so powerful. And immediately when you let the record go, it would start right at the beat.

Armin (00:28:00):

There were clubs where they had the same techniques as SL 1200 turntables for more than 30 years. And yes, they replaced the arm, they replaced the needle. Sometimes a little thing would break. But the, the, the engine was so robust, so well built by techniques that it would go on for 30 years every single night for five, six hours. And it would still be that solid. That's how good the techniques s sl 1200 turntable were the original ones. It was, it's a legendary machine.

Moby (00:28:28):

And every, and again, going back to hiphop house music, reggaeton dance, every genre started with this turntable. So you can point to these one little bits of technology. The 8 0 8, the 9 0 9, the 1200, the, what's the, um, because I only had rack mounted Akai samplers, like the 900, 9 50, 1200 3030 200. Yeah. But there was the, what, what's the one Todd Terry used it all the early hip hop records. The one that has the pads on it. Uh,

Armin (00:28:57):

I never used that one. Is it Onic?

Moby (00:28:59):

No, it's a Kai.

Armin (00:29:00):

Is it the Kai 1000? I don't know. Oh, the

Moby (00:29:04):

MPC 60. MPC 60. Basically

Armin (00:29:06):

There is no machine tire than that one. The original NPC was used by my, my big hero. You know, my Obi one Kenobi is, uh, Ben Libr. He was a Dutch Master mixer. I dunno if you've ever heard his name. Uh, we're we're still good friends. Uh, he now lives in Vancouver Island, but mm-hmm <affirmative>. I would like to mention his name, because what he did at the time was pretty revolutionary. I mean, I know it sounds silly now, but to combine two records at the time was revolutionary. Yeah. And he used to sample the weatherman, you know, announcing the, the weather of the next day. And he used to sample that on the beat of Art of Noise and making him sound like the weatherman was actually rapping using a sampler. That's so cool. Yeah. So it's online. You can find it on YouTube store.

Armin (00:29:50):

And I was eight years old and I heard that. And that's when I knew this is what I want to do. Wow. I was so fascinated about, that's why I love albums like The Orbs Adventures Beyond the Ultra World. I'm a huge fan of ambient music. Massive, massive fan of ambient music. Because you know, with with sound, you can paint, you can absolutely paint with samples. And that's what the orb used to, to do. And what you do with, with your ambient albums, you can paint with sound, create a palette, a mood, an atmosphere without it being, I found making songs sometimes so restricted, you know, verse, chorus verse. And there's nothing wrong with a good song. But all of a sudden in the world of electronic music, you had this immense possibility to create this universe that's just only living in your head. And to express that universe and to actually bring it alive in sound, you know, you can almost see it.

Armin (00:30:44):

You know what I mean? And I was, as a kid, I was fascinated about that. Like, if I play this pad with this sample or it gives it, it, you know, it gets meaning. It it. And that's how I found my life's purpose. And I still try to find that guy that, that that boy that was listening to those early cassette tapes and those radio shows. 'cause these people were very, very experimental listening back at them. I recently digitized quite a few. They're on my phone as we speak. I, uh, these cassettes still sound really good with, uh, with the Dutch presentations on, on them. And I, I used to, I'm still listening back to those tapes from 92, 93, and those ideas are still sound so fresh to this day. I mean, what was happening at the time, I still think it was revolutionary. Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Armin (00:31:28):

You know, and a lot of it is actually coming back is a lot of those classics are now being rewritten. And, but what we were doing at the time, uh, at the time when you released your first records and later of course it was revolutionary. And I think now you only, you know, only in hindsight, for example, the Beatles, everybody still talks about The Beatles. Right. Um, how amazing their repertoire was. I think the end of the eighties, the early nineties was, was the Beatles era for dance music. 'cause what happened at the time was absolutely revolutionary.

Moby (00:31:55):

And we've talked about this as well. Like the technology was new, the ev everything was, the culture was new. The people, yeah. The culture was new. And we were also, what was amazing, we were inventing it ourselves. You know, you didn't have to get approval from big record labels or from corporations. It was like, oh, start your own record label. Start your own clothing company, become your own club promoter. Then the newness of it, the fact that it was being invented fresh and new every week was that, I don't know if that's existed since.

Armin (00:32:26):

And also what I think was revolutionary is that when the DJs began to DJ in the era of disco, people were just dancing towards each other. So you had little circles of people dancing on the dance floor, dancing to disco. The DJ was kind of like just a little bit higher than the barman, but he wasn't the main attraction of the show. I think right now what you see is that all the people are turned towards the dj. So, and that took a few years, but people started turning around and started seeing the DJ as the center thing when the DJ for a long time was just, you know, uh, the early DJs were just barman who turned around quickly, uh, switched CDs. And then, uh, how can I help you? You

Moby (00:33:04):

Know, to be fair, my first job as a dj, I would DJ on Monday nights. I was a bartender on Tuesday nights. Yeah,

Armin (00:33:10):

Same. Same.

Moby (00:33:11):

I would DJ again Wednesday nights on Thursday nights I would be the doorman. Wow. And then I would also come in on my days off to practice DJing and clean the bar <laugh>. And so I got paid more as a bartender than as a dj. Like the nights I bartended, oh, I did great. I made like $50 as opposed to DJing. I got a raise to $40. But

Armin (00:33:31):

You probably all spend it at a record store right. The next day

Moby (00:33:34):

Or on equipment or everything. You know, <laugh>,

Lindsay (00:33:37):

I think of this time because I, I don't know that there has been any sort of like artistic revolution that I have been a part of the culture. But I imagine that, I mean, not that I can think of other than social media, which I don't know if that's any sort of great revolution. Um, but it must have felt so empowering to feel like I'm at the forefront of something that nobody's done before. And to find, to feel that like, limitless feeling of, I can make any sound. I can think of,

Armin (00:34:06):

Oh, I had an, I had imposter syndrome for a long time.

Moby (00:34:09):

I think we all still do. Yeah.

Armin (00:34:10):

Like did, I mean, don't tell anybody but guys, <laugh> guys, this, this really isn't that good. You know, <laugh>, that's what I thought for a long time. Like re really,

Moby (00:34:19):

Like whenever told my, my records. Yeah. Whenever anybody told me they liked my music, my immediate response was really <laugh>, are you sure? Or like, if someone said, oh, I like your records, I was like, oh, that's polite of you to say, I know you're, I know you don't mean it.

Armin (00:34:33):

Exactly. I, I, I, I so know what you're talking about. I still to this day am like, really the scariest thing is to put your music out there and share it with the rest of the world. 'cause it feels like you're sharing your baby with the rest of the world. Yeah. It's a piece of you, you know, it's so, uh, but it's so different now than it was at the time.

Moby (00:34:49):

Can I, can I quickly, I know I've been doing this a lot, but I am excited to do it. So early nineties, uh, house music from the Netherlands. Yes. Um, what were, like, for example, like, did, did you like, uh, plastic Dreams by tv?

Armin (00:35:04):

Oh yeah, absolutely. JD was actually one of the, i bin Bu is his name. He, I saw him a few weeks ago when I got a, an award for my radio show. And he was, he was the director of the station at the

Moby (00:35:15):

Time. Oh, wow.

Armin (00:35:16):

Yeah. So he's still around. He's a Hess,

Moby (00:35:18):

A legend. That record, that was a revolutionary record. I remember it. Um, it, I'll play it for you sometime. What is it? It's basically a breakbeat and an organ, and that's the entire song for nine minutes. And it's the coolest thing you've ever heard. Um, I remember it was Chloe S's favorite song when she was an early raver in like 92, I guess. I remember being at a late night thing with her at like six o'clock in the morning in a basement on the Bowery. And that song came on and

Armin (00:35:49):

It's the mu it's the music box preset from the Roland Jakes eight p. If you wanna be a real nerd, the, it's the lowest key.

Moby (00:35:57):

So yeah. And then the rest of it's just this break beat and then playing an organ on top of it. So simple and so revolutionary at the time,

Armin (00:36:08):

Because we were, there were no rules. I mean, right now, you know, if you're making a beat, someone in the room will say, Hey, this is Tech House. Or Hey, this is techno. And if you look at Beatport, I love Beatport, but there's a new genre every week. I, so, and then now, you know, there's a lot of guys now who make trans music, but that they think that the word trans is not cool. So they call it melodic techno. And I don't even know the difference between melodic techno and trans anywhere. But it's so funny you

Moby (00:36:35):

Went to Beatport. I'll show you Beat. It's a, it's a, it's a portal where people buy dance music and it's amazing. Yeah. It's, and it's so well done. But I look at it and I feel so ignorant 'cause the genres, I'm like, si t trance. So I don't know what's the difference.

Armin (00:36:50):

Yes.

Moby (00:36:51):

Old school electro versus big room electro versus this, I'm like, yeah.

Armin (00:36:56):

And there's a, there's a danger, there's a danger to it as well. 'cause you know, I'm considered a trans DJ and I'm proud of it. I mean, I love trans and I'll proudly carry that flag if I have to. But I play a lot of tracks. They're not labeled as trans or not in Beatport as the, the, actually the other week I had a number one in the, in the raw techno chart and a number one in the main stage chart, whatever that is. And not in the trans chart. So I felt a bit like, Hey, this is weird. I got an award for being the highest trans dj, but I have a number one in two. It's something weird going on

Lindsay (00:37:30):

Crossover. Yeah.

Armin (00:37:32):

So, I don't know. I, I just, my, you know, my motto is, don't be a prisoner of your own style, I guess. Um, just, just try to have fun with it. Don't think too much about what you're doing and, and let those people decide. 'cause they apparently know what kind of genre I'm making. I never know until I look, uh, I look up my own tracks on Bport and I'm like, oh, okay. This is main stage. Okay, great. <laugh>.

Lindsay (00:37:51):

So you can just kind of make whatever you feel like whatever's coming up for you without

Armin (00:37:56):

Feeling Well, if your fans have certain expectations. Yes, sure. But, uh, uh, well, yeah, uh, Moby and I just released a record together Of course, which is actually today. So we actually have something to celebrate. It's a big day.

Moby (00:38:07):

Hey, <laugh>

Armin (00:38:08):

Happy Release Day. We say Happy

Moby (00:38:09):

Release

Armin (00:38:10):

Day. And, uh, but is it trans? Is it, is it, is it electro? Is it, I don't know, it's just, I just, it's just an amazing record in, in my opinion. But,

Moby (00:38:18):

Um, okay. I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask one or one or two more, um, early dance music related questions. I just, I can't tell myself

Lindsay (00:38:27):

I never need to talk it. You have someone here that knows

Moby (00:38:29):

All of this stuff and maybe, I dunno if this is a bad question. 'cause maybe you guys like each other don't like each other. It just

Armin (00:38:33):

Feels so weird. Like, you're, you're the, I have, you have no idea. You're the legend of legends. Like, if you would ask people like, who founded this whole thing, you're, you're definitely

Moby (00:38:43):

One of it. I'm a fan more than anything else. Yeah. But

Armin (00:38:45):

You're asking me questions about like, I'm younger than you obviously, and, and you know, you asking me question about the early days of dance music when you were sitting there, it's like, it's, it feels, you

Moby (00:38:54):

Know, oh,

Armin (00:38:55):

It feels a bit bizarre in a way, but,

Moby (00:38:57):

Well, so one of the first trance tracks I remember hearing and I fell in love with it, and maybe this is a, if you guys aren't friends, I apologize, but it's a ferry corsten track. Oh yeah,

Armin (00:39:07):

Absolutely. Ferry's

Moby (00:39:08):

A hero, I think it's called, where are you now? Yeah. Is that a, do you know that track

Armin (00:39:12):

The Generator? Is

Moby (00:39:13):

That? I forget. But it has this vocoder, it's so melodic and so beautiful. And that's the, it's one of the first times I remember hearing dance music and being like, oh, this is almost orchestral. Like, it was such a beautiful emotional track. So I remember that was probably like 97, 98. Yeah. Um,

Armin (00:39:31):

A Moon Man. I think it's, is it tracked by Moonman

Moby (00:39:34):

The name? Don't Be Afraid. Yeah. He, I just remember a Vocoder the chorus is like, where are you now? And it's this big emotional breakdown.

Armin (00:39:41):

Yeah. Ferry's actually, I just did a vinyl back to back set with him on the radio show. Ferry's a is a great guy. He is absolutely a legend. And I always like to say that I warmed up for Ferry in the early days of my career. 'cause in the UK at the time, he was, you know, God, he still is. Um, but especially at the time, you know, all his records were being played on BBC Radio one, and, and it was sort of the Dutch invasion, you know, um, he kind of carried that flag. And, you know, we owe him a lot, uh, for the fact that he did that. And I'm, I'm really proud to say he's, uh, he's my friend and definitely something I admire.

Moby (00:40:14):

Well, please say hi.

Armin (00:40:15):

Sorry.

Moby (00:40:15):

Please say hi. I

Armin (00:40:16):

Will,

Moby (00:40:16):

I will. And also that just that, that really, there had been, I had been playing Trance records before that, but that was the one that really made me like, recognize there's something very special happening here. Yeah. Okay. One last old guy, Dutch no, please. Related. Just, I'm, I'm by all means get in. Sorry to keep going down that rabbit hole, but did you ever know fierce ruling diva?

Armin (00:40:40):

Yes, of course. Okay.

Moby (00:40:42):

Um, can I,

Armin (00:40:43):

You got to believe in something. Why not believe in me? Such a, that's where Armaldo stole his witch doctor loop. Really?

Moby (00:40:51):

So can I tell you my first Dutch experience? Sure. Okay. And I, Lindsay I've told you this story, so I apologize. I'm an old guy. I repeat myself. So the year was 1990, summer of 1990, and I'm going to Europe for the first time. And I went to Germany to play with Westbam and a few other people. Wow.

Armin (00:41:14):

The legend.

Moby (00:41:15):

And I took the train to the Netherlands from Munster. Um, and because I had been invited to play at a party being thrown by Eddie De Clerk,

Armin (00:41:30):

I think that was the founder. And holiday is considered to be one of the founders.

Moby (00:41:33):

Okay. So Eddie De Clark, who I'd never met, had invited me to come play

Armin (00:41:38):

At the

Moby (00:41:39):

Roxy. No, it was actually, it was a party called Voodoo that he threw in a warehouse. And so I had my keyboard in one hand. My bag of records in the other hand, I get to the Amsterdam train station. I've never been to Amsterdam. This is pre-internet. This is 1990. I'm like, all I had was an address for his office. And I went to his office and it was closed <laugh>. And I was like, what do I, what do I do now? I'm like, it, it's raining. It's Sunday. His office is closed. I don't have a phone number. I don't know what to do. So there's a phone booth across the, I think it was on Prince <inaudible>. Prince

Armin (00:42:15):

<inaudible>,

Moby (00:42:15):

Yeah. And I walked into this phone booth and to our drug question earlier, there was a passed out heroin addict in the drug booth. <laugh>. That's not a soft drug. That's, that's, yeah. Not a soft, not within the policy. And, and while, so while this passed out, drug addict was in the phone booth, I had a fierce ruling Diva 12 inch that had a phone number on the back of it. And so I took my fierce ruling Diva 12 inch, and I dialed the number on the back. And Yun, who had started

Armin (00:42:44):

Fl Yeah. Unbelievable. He

Moby (00:42:46):

Came and picked me up and they, he and, um, his boyfriend, uh, took me to a restaurant called The Bull who on Princeton Rock, great vegan restaurant. And then they took me to the Voodoo Festival. My

Armin (00:42:58):

God, Moby just saw Moby's on the phone. <laugh>.

Moby (00:43:00):

But at that point, I, all I had, I, I only had the song go out and people thought my name was Moby Go. Really? Yeah. So I had to introduce myself and be like, hi, you might not know me. My name's Moby Go. And I'm supposed to play with Eddie de Clark tonight, but I don't know where I'm going. And he came, picked me up in his little red van and drove me to the amazing,

Armin (00:43:19):

Well, at the time, you know, everything in the Netherlands was still really, really, really new, you know? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. The story of Eddie Clare goes back to the Roxy where he used to have house music nights where nobody would show up. And then all of a sudden people started coming. 'cause it was the new thing. I think it was this 89 90 Yo Bella, Eddie Clare, Remy Dmitri. That's how the whole dance music scene in the Netherlands, basically. It was founded. And we still, you know, pay respect to those guys because they really founded everything. I mean, I, I benefit from that today. You know, the fact that that happened at the time. But the Netherlands was really the Roxy and, and the, it's later and the Escape Theater. That that was, that was, that was it. I mean, people now think if they think about dance music, they think about these massive festivals.

Armin (00:44:01):

They think about, you know, ultra Miami or EDC or, uh, Coachella, whatever. And there's 200,000 people coming. But at the time, dance music was, you know, the biggest thing you would do would sell 400 tickets or 500 tickets in the Roxy, and then you would do really well. It was just a small, very, very niche thing. It's, it's really important to, to underline that because it wasn't big at all. We just loved it because it was ours, you know? Yeah. It was our little world that we, uh, and, and it was not about money or anything. 'cause there was no money to be made. Yeah. You could sell some records and if you were lucky, you'd sell. I

Moby (00:44:36):

Think the drug dealers did. Okay.

Armin (00:44:38):

<laugh> they made,

Lindsay (00:44:39):

Yeah. That would've been a hot spot.

Moby (00:44:41):

Um, I know you wanted to talk about mental health as a segue. Well,

Lindsay (00:44:45):

Yeah. I've, I've noticed that you're quite open Yes. About your, your journey there and, and, uh, the, the self-awareness to say, I think I need to shift some things and put my focus in certain places. I think a lot of people don't get to the place where self-awareness drives them to actually change how they are.

Armin (00:45:08):

It's, um, how, how can I say this in a few sentences? 'cause I don't want to repeat myself 'cause I've been telling this story recently a lot. But yeah, I went through a little bit of, um, a bump in my life, uh, and in my marriage and in everything. And what was the most difficult about that was, is that I'm a control freak. And I thought I always controlled it. But, um, I was unhappy, um, for a long time touring and doing what I was doing, which was strange because I'm still that guy that we've been talking about the last, uh, couple of minutes. And I'm, I'm really thankful. I'm really grateful for everything I do. I still am, you know, I make my gratitude list every morning, and I thank my higher power every, every day. And I'm, I'm super grateful, but I was unhappy.

Armin (00:45:53):

And I'm also a little bit of a people pleaser, which is a bit of a problem if you're a dj, because then you say yes to all the gigs that you get offered. And how I was like, how the hell did I end up here? You know? I wasn't seeing my family. I was, uh, just being in hotel rooms all the time. I was away from home, missing birthdays, missing family dinners, missing, you know, everything. And here I was again in Vegas selling out, uh, an amazing night, getting paid lots of money, but then waking up alone in my bed and just feeling lonely and, and for a long time that, that didn't went well. So I started drinking more and more and more. And, uh, at one point I had some really bad thoughts. Like, okay, so my dad sort of intervened and I went to see a psychotherapist and I went in therapy, and I was like, I can't, I couldn't cope with myself.

Armin (00:46:38):

The fact that I was receiving all this, this fame, you know, uh, I had a company that was doing well. My records were selling well, I got plaque after plaque, and it was so great, and I was super happy and proud of what I was doing, but I felt like a robot a little bit as well. Felt more and more disconnected from my music. And I was just get slowly spiraling ling downhill. And then of course, we all know the passing of, uh, Tim Ling of Ichi, um, which was kind of a turnaround for me as well. Uh, that really changed something in the, in the dance music industry. It changed me, you know? Uh, I was so shocked that that happened because we all loved him. His music is fantastic. And we just saw that happening. And that documentary is still one of the most shocking things I've ever seen.

Armin (00:47:23):

And, uh, it kind of opened my eyes a little bit, like, okay, I may actually have a serious problem here. I need to, I need to stop. So I told my management, I'm gonna take a year off. I'm gonna take a sabbatical. And that's when Covid happened. So it's, that's timing <laugh>. It's, I mean, if talk, if you talk, if you don't believe in higher power, I, I now have to, because he just intervened there. You know, he came and he said, okay, it's time to quit. And then I started working on myself. I quit drinking. So I'm now, as they say, five years clean and sober. And I never really took drugs, fortunately, because I was never into that. Um, so I was never on, I never used any substances. I never even smoked pot. Um, so I quit drinking, went to work on myself, and, uh, completely changed it around.

Armin (00:48:09):

And I found out that the balance was just wrong with me, you know? Um, fortunately I was able to make things up with, uh, with my wife and, um, with my family. And, uh, for a long time actually considered during covid actually con seriously considered quitting music. All, you know, quit the radio show quit. Uh, I, for a long time I didn't even do the radio show myself. And, um, I had somebody taking over. Um, and then I found myself again just by accepting, uh, those feelings and started meditating, um, you know, getting serious help, getting a sponsor, getting, yeah. And that, and I honestly, I can say right now, looking back at it, and this may sound really, really ironic, but the, the, the kvu fear holds the treasure you seek. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And, uh, that was, that's literally my new favorite quote because I started looking at myself and realizing that I had a problem.

Armin (00:49:07):

So in a way, it was a gift. Yeah. Before I spiraled out of control and actually jumped off the roof of, uh, the, the hotel in Vegas, which, which crossed my mind, you know, I said I wasn't happy, like, who's gonna miss me? You know? Yeah. And, uh, this was a terrible thought. And, uh, but I'm so happy that that happened to me. 'cause it opened my eyes seeing that I, that I wasn't happy. I wasn't happy with myself. It was just, I was just angry with myself in a really weird way. It was, and it was me. It was me. It was it up. Nobody else. I'm not blaming anybody. Not blaming my management, not blaming my label, not blaming my fans. It was just me. And I had to seriously look at myself and the monster I became. And you know, how, how arrogant I became, how, how not nice to people around me and changing my daily routine.

Armin (00:49:54):

Um, I mean, much more happened than quitting drinking. It was just, uh, my eating habits changed, uh, you know, meditating in the morning, which I, I took a, it took a lot of time to embrace meditation. I used to hate it. What, what kind? Um, just, just sitting for like, with an app. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. For 10 minutes, and my mind would race. And I was like, this is not for me. And I threw the headphones away. And then later I understood that that was exactly the point of meditating. Yes, it is. The point of meditating is that your thoughts are not, that your thoughts are running like crazy and that the monkey is yapping. Yes. So, you know, one of the, one of the stupid things I changed, for example, is when I'm home and I wake up next to my wife, first thing I would do is grab my phone, which is what a lot of people do.

Armin (00:50:42):

And again, there's nothing where I'm not criticizing, but it's so weird. Like, the, the person I love the most is laying next to me in bed. And what do I do? I turn the other way. Yeah. Grab my phone and I start reading the news and the messages. Yeah. Well, what is most important? It is that person. Yeah. So one of the routines I changed is I don't, I'm not touching my phone until after my workout. Yeah. And, um, yeah. That, that kind of really changed, changed everything and made me into such, I hope, well, it made me a lot more happy with myself and, and, you know, realizing that I have no control over, over anything. Realizing that I, that it's all in my higher powers hands, and that I, um, yeah. That I should just let it happen. I have no control over nothing. Only the only thing I can control is my own behavior and my own thoughts. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And sit and that, and that is a full-time job controlling my own thoughts.

Moby (00:51:36):

<laugh>. Um, you know, it's funny hearing you talk about it. It, I hadn't, hadn't really thought of it this way, but like, similar to you, like, when we're growing up, none of us expect any success. No. You know, like, like for me, success would've been making one 12 inch that sold 500 copies. Exactly. That's it. I can retire, I'm done. Um, but then you find yourself on the receiving end of everything. You know, like, suddenly it's like, there's money, there's attention, there's parties, there's fame, there's all these things. And at first it's phenomenal, but then you start, the depression creeps in, the anxiety creeps in. But one of the issues that I had, and it sounds like maybe you had as well, is I almost was telling myself, oh, I'm not allowed to be anxious. I'm not allowed to be depressed. Everything's great. Exactly How, like, and, and if I'm depressed, something must be so wrong with me that I, I'm just gonna ignore it. I'm just gonna ignore it because I'm a rock star. I don't have the right to be depressed. And it's like, but the, the brain doesn't, you know, the brain doesn't care. The brain just knows that it's sad and confused. Um, but also

Lindsay (00:52:46):

The longer you're pushing it down, the longer you're ignoring it. It's like getting worse

Moby (00:52:49):

Underneath then. Yeah. Then the longer, then you're like, well, I'm depressed, so I'll drink more. Okay. I'm depressed. I'll stay out later. I'm

Armin (00:52:56):

Depressed. Well, you, you start looking for external solutions for internal problems. And you don't realize it, you don't realize that you drink, not because you like the, the, the taste of alcohol or, you know, you're having an amazing, you're having an amazing, uh, salad and you want to have lack glass of wine with it. And the taste, the combination is great. There's nothing wrong with that. I mean, there's a lot of people who can do that. I was not drinking for that. I was drinking to get rid of my anxiety Right. Before a show. I could never go on stage without two glasses of champagne. I had to drink at least two glass of champagne to take the edge off. And I told myself, it's allowed because nobody has that, that amount of pressure. And I wanna perform. And I'm more relaxed if I have two or three glasses of champagne and I, I'll perform. And I used to finish the bottle at the end of the show, and that would be normal, you know, and my crew would drink as well. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. I nobody said anything. Yeah.

Moby (00:53:45):

The good thing you never discovered cocaine, <laugh>. Yeah, exactly. Is that, that I discovered cocaine towards the end of my drinking. And boy, it got me sober very fast. Yeah. <laugh> like, just pushes you to, like, you're, that's when things go dark and strange, like alcohol. If I'd just kept drinking, I probably would've gotten sober eventually. But it wouldn't have happened that quickly. The cocaine really is, it pushes you to your bottom V really.

Armin (00:54:08):

I, well, I have a lot of guys I'm helping now, actually. I set up, during the covid I set up these groups, uh, chat groups on WhatsApp. And one of these groups grew so fast, was 120 DJs in there. Mm. And, uh, it's like a closed group. And actually next week it's, we have a retreat in the Netherlands that I organize where 11 DJs come together to do yoga, to eat, uh, vegan to, uh, to go out for long walks, uh, just to be together, to do, uh, you know, exercises. Amazing. And a lot of those people aren't, uh, aren't, uh, in, in, you know, in recovery. They're just, they're just people who are struggling. And everybody, I, I find every, pretty much every DJ I know runs into a wall sooner or later, whether it's addiction, depression, anxiety, it's just, and that this is what we, you know, it's now more accepted to talk about this.

Armin (00:55:00):

Because since the passing of oci, people know that this lifestyle has, I mean, as great as it is, I mean, that's, I need, we need to stress that. 'cause it is very great. And the private jets, yes, they're true. And the big checks, yes, they're true, but there's a big downside to it. And that is your brain and that is your, you know, your self critique. And Yeah. And we have to be very, very wary of that because I'm, I'm just super afraid, and this is the reason why I started these groups, that other DJs are gonna hurt themselves. Because after Avice, we had multiple other DJs mm-hmm. Hurting themselves for the wrong reasons. And they're human beings. First and foremost. We need to look after each other. I feel a responsibility to the DJ community as a whole. There's not really a, a solid foundation. Even after the passing of Ochi, which has such a massive impact on the world of dance music, there's not really a platform to help these people. Like, where do you go as a dj? If you're having these dark thoughts, where do you go? So that's why we set up these groups. And if any, any DJ struggling is out there and needs my help, hit me up.

Moby (00:55:59):

You know, it's interesting hearing you talk about it. It's another thing I hadn't recognized is that we are solitary people. We can have friends, we can have family, but like, one person on stage, one person alone in the dressing room, one person alone in the studio working one, there's a lot of that isolation. And as a result, yeah. When things start to go wrong, we don't know what to do. We're like, 'cause like growing up, like you rely on yourself to make music. You rely on yourself to look for records. You rely on yourself for everything. And then when things start to go wrong with mental health, you're like, oh, I have to rely on myself. And it's that moment that what my favorite acronym for God is the gift of desperation. You know, that moment of like, oh, I can no longer rely on myself for this. I need to tell other people what's going on. Well,

Armin (00:56:48):

There's still, you know, when you touch on the subject of mental health, the first thing, the first thing that happened to me is I get sweaty hands. I still do. I, if I'm truly honest. And I'm gonna be truly honest to talk about it. Yes. What? To look at it. Yes. Because it's shame. Mm. And I had, uh, a therapist who could explain the, the danger of shame. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Because you, we don't know the fairytale of the princess and the, and the, and the mattresses with the, the princess and the pea, the princess and the pea. Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Armin (00:57:15):

And no matter how many mattress you put there, the shame will always be there. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And he explained to me like, what is so dangerous? There, there's, there, there's two things. There's guilt and there's shame. Yeah. Uh, what is the big difference? Is guilt is, I made a mistake. I'm gonna apologize for it. I'm gonna leave it in the past. Shame is I'm not good enough. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. I, I'm, and we built these mattresses. So one of those mattresses, which I have for example, is people pleasing. I want you guys to like me. So I'm joining this conversation and I'm saying the right thing. So you think I'm a cool dude, <laugh>, another layer could be alcohol, could be drugs. You just, you just don't want to feel the shame. But no matter how many mattresses you put on yourself, there's always gonna be another layer, uh, of working work.

Armin (00:58:01):

Being a workaholic is one of those mattresses. You are gonna put another layer on top of you, uh, um, becoming aggressive, becoming arrogant, becoming an ego. It's another mattress. Not to feel the shame. And what I've, what I had to learn myself is I had to turn the shame into guilt. Saying like, okay, I made a mistake, or I wasn't so nice. I have to apologize to this person. Or I didn't do this so well and have to leave it behind me. And that's how you can get rid of the shame and, and no longer feel you're not worthy. And because this is the foundation of everything, of all this insecurities, the feeling that I'm not good enough. Yeah. I, I don't belong here. Uh, the imposter syndrome that we touched on earlier, it's so true. You know, and I'm just talking from personal experience.

Armin (00:58:45):

I mean, I know this is different for everybody, but this is what I found out about me, who is army of Van Buren. Really? Who am I really? And I saw a really ugly human being in a way. But I had to embrace him. I had to give him a lot of love. And I had to learn that. I'm still learning that, by the way. I mean, I, I don't want this podcast to sound like my journey isn't over. I'm in the middle of my journey. Yeah. And I have to do it one day at a time. So I still do that. I still make my gratitude list every day. And I, I thought it was the stupidest thing to do that. Why do people make gratitude list? You know? And I had so much resistance again. And now I do it every day for like, I've been doing it for four years every morning, making, just listing five things that I'm grateful for.

Armin (00:59:27):

Sometimes it's the hardest thing that I do. And I know if it's, if I have to think about five things that I'm grateful for, and if I take me more than a minute, I know I'm not doing well. Hmm. Because then I'm not appreciative of my family, of everything I got the success I had. I mean, we all know gratitude list can be anything. It can be a cup of coffee in the morning. It can be the sunshine. It can be the nice bed you're laying in, you know, you can make, but sometimes I find my brain really fighting for five things to look for that I have to be thankful for. And that tells me that maybe I need to do some work on myself that day.

Moby (01:00:00):

So our friend Julie taught me an a sort of like expanded gratitude practice that I really love. Have I have we talked about the Yeah. Yes. So it's basically, 'cause I was making my gratitude list and I wasn't getting that much from it. And her suggestion and it work, um, if you wanna try it or if anyone listening wants to try it, is you don't just write down what you're grateful for for each thing. You also write down three reasons why. Mm. And something about that, that simple expanded practice, she told me about it and I tried it. It really deep, it just deepens the process. Because you

Lindsay (01:00:37):

Can't just write a cup of coffee and then be like, okay, onto the next Well, you have to really get into it.

Armin (01:00:41):

So one of those stupid things about a cup of coffee is that thanks to my gratitude list, I now actually taste my coffee. Yeah. I used to every morning, just get my cup of coffee and pour it in. And I wouldn't even taste it. I wouldn't even notice that I was drinking the coffee. Now I sit down, I take a breather, I take a zip of coffee, I'm like, wow, warm. It's the greatest world. Yeah. Warm. What a great taste. I'm not even tasting my coffee. How silly is that? And that's one of the things I had to learn through therapy. Yeah. To

Lindsay (01:01:07):

Like, be more present,

Armin (01:01:08):

Be in a moment. Yeah. We only have this moment as we know. And, uh, yeah. The power of the moment that had to, you know, it took, it took me a lot of years of therapy to let really let that sink in.

Moby (01:01:18):

And how has this changed your thoughts about creativity and music?

Armin (01:01:23):

Um, I'm less, uh, angry with myself. I just, I just let the process be, you know, normally if I would drive down to, to do this podcast with you, I would sit here and I would like, on the way I'd, I'd check all your previous podcasts. And I'm like, well, what is he expecting? What kind of questions? And I, I want him to, you know, when I leave, I want him to think like, oh, arm of Van Buren is such a nice guy and he's being so genuine. And, you know, I just, and now I just, I just let it, I just give it to my higher power. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And, you know, the fact that you just sent me those, that thing about, um, the, the gratitude list to have three things. Why, um, that is to me another proof that my higher power is working.

Armin (01:02:03):

'cause you're giving me another step in my recovery. You know what I mean? It's, and I hope that makes sense because it's mm-hmm <affirmative>. Oh yeah. It's like if you start seeing your higher power at work, if you start seeing that this is actually how life works, that, you know, I have nothing to say over it and just let go. So when I'm in the studio, I just, sometimes I, I sit behind a keyboard and I come across chords, or I find a sample, or I'm inspired by something. It would almost be like an insult to my higher power not to pursue that melody. 'cause he's giving that to me. You know what I mean? That's how I now make music. So even if, even if I make a track that's 150 BPM, that's super hard. And I'm like, there's a reason why my higher power is letting me make this music so I'd better embrace it.

Armin (01:02:48):

So that's a new philosophy for me. And since then, I didn't have any writer's blocks. You know, I'm sure you've, you know, the feeling when you're in the studio and you have no inspiration at all. And I, you know, I wanna say to all my fans who, who I always ask, like every interview, I get the question, where do you get your inspiration from? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Well, I guess it's my subconscious just combining all those melodies that I heard, like for 30, 40 years. And on a subconscious level that's making me move my fingers. I took piano, started taking piano lessons five years ago. So now all of a sudden, I, I know what I'm the hell I've been doing all those years, <laugh>. And I love learning. I also noticed how I missed that in my career. When I was doing 130 gigs a year. All I was doing is I was living from show to show and released to release and radio show to radio show.

Armin (01:03:31):

I was, wasn't doing anything else. And now I have time to, to do stuff. And I noticed that one of the things I really, uh, like in life is that I should, after school, after university, uh, I should have never stopped learning. I should have. So I took on a, I'd got my boating license. I got a, I learned how to, you know, I, I learned how to use a, a barbecue and not, and not, not for me mm-hmm <affirmative>. But for, for vegetables and to make cakes and stuff. And there's so much to learn in the world and so much to see. But you have to be eager to see that as well. So taking on piano lessons, I mean, it was really uncomfortable. You know, my piano teacher coming in, I found this guy, amazing guy. And he walked in and he was a bit shy. Like, you're Army Van Buren. Yeah. You've had all these black Yeah. I'm gonna give you piano lesson number one. Yeah. <laugh>. So we sat down, we opened, you know, the first piano book and started playing the piano like, like a beginner. And that was such a breath of fresh air. I'm like, wow, I'm learning. So I, I think one of the truths in life for me is, uh, just never stop learning, you know? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Read books, um, self-educate. Uh, I mean, I love YouTube, <laugh>, there's so much to find on YouTube.

Lindsay (01:04:39):

You can learn anything.

Armin (01:04:40):

You can learn anything from cooking. Uh, it's like doors that you open. Like the other day I went diving, you know, uh, to get a pad diving degree. So once you dive into the world of diving and you open that door, you start seeing that there's thousands of people who know everything about the fish and the life underwater and how that's, and then there's all kinds of enthusiasts. And this is the whole world, you know? Amazing. So, so that

Moby (01:05:05):

Segues perfectly into one thing I know you wanted to talk about is oceans.

Lindsay (01:05:10):

Yes. Because you've been doing a lot with the oceans and working with organizations to protect them.

Armin (01:05:15):

Yes. And well, one of the things I'm really concerned about is, uh, plastic pollution. Oh

Lindsay (01:05:19):

Boy. Oh my God. It's my biggest fear.

Moby (01:05:21):

It's the thing I can't even think about. Yeah. It's too terrifying <laugh>, because not just macro microplastics, it's nanoplastics. Oh, yeah, exactly. It's, it's,

Armin (01:05:28):

It's

Moby (01:05:28):

So dark and terrifying. I went

Armin (01:05:29):

To Bali and I came to, uh, uh, I love Bali. I love coming there. I love Indonesia. But, uh, I was shocked that they don't have a general waste management.

Lindsay (01:05:39):

I've seen a lot of people talking about the, the waste management problem in Bali. They

Armin (01:05:43):

Don't have gen, uh, uh, people in Bali are used just by, by, you know, I think years and years of, they just throw the garbage in the water and the water takes the garbage to the sea. And, you know, where does the garbage go? You know? So yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's a problem. And I'm, I, you know, I have two kids and I, it, it changed my view on life a lot. Like what kind of world do we live in? And of course, again, I can't change a lot of the stuff that's going on on the planet. And a lot of it I don't agree with. But if I as an artist have anything to say, I'm still like, I feel humbled. The fact that the WWF, uh, at VNF in the Netherlands, as we would say, they had hired me as an ambassador.

Armin (01:06:20):

I think I'm gladly accepting that. You know, there's a few other things I also do. I'm an ambassador for, uh, the children's hospital against, uh, cancer. 'cause uh, my manager's, uh, my manager's son was really sick with cancer and shocked me so much. And having two kids myself, I was like, yeah, I mean, cancer is a horrible disease for anybody at any age, obviously. But especially for kid, for kids. I mean, I was like, no. So they, they want to open this music studio once a year. I go there, uh, and, uh, I teach these, these sick kids how to dj and for them it's a relief. But I always come home. I have to take a day off. 'cause I get really emotional Oh yeah. Of seeing all those kids. But I have to do it

Moby (01:06:59):

Like, like doctors and nurses who work in pediatric oncology wards. I'm like, I couldn't even do it for one minute. It's just too upset. Exactly.

Armin (01:07:07):

I'm

Moby (01:07:07):

Glad that people do it. It's so necessary. But

Armin (01:07:09):

It's painful for me. It's painful to walk there and to see those kids, but I have to do it. 'cause I feel like it's my way of, of giving back for everything that I receive. And same thing with the, the, the plastic pollution and, um, trying to be now more active as a, as a member, uh, to actually raise money for all those, those things that they're doing. And they're helping, for example, in Bali, now they're building a, a, a, a thing that they can recycle, uh, plastic and and stuff. And, but just walking around there, as much as I love Bali, I'm so shocked. Well, we did a photo shoot like next to those rivers full of plastic. And, and I was like, ah, this can't be good for the planet. I mean,

Moby (01:07:46):

It's,

Lindsay (01:07:47):

Yeah. It's, and it's especially strange 'cause it's this place where people go for these spiritual journeys and to connect with themselves and the planet. Yeah.

Armin (01:07:55):

But these people don't know any better. I think it's also, it has a lot to do with education. People in Bali do not know that that is bad for the world because Yeah. Their, their grandparents used to do it. So we can't really blame them. But it's, it's also we need to educate them first and foremost. Yeah. You can't be just walk in there and be angry. Like, why are you not throwing your garbage in the bin? And 'cause they're not used to that. They

Moby (01:08:16):

Don't know that. And the thing with plastic, what makes, I mean, it's horrifying, but one very interesting aspect of it is everybody's guilty. Yeah. You know, there, there's no, there's no socioeconomic dis divide around plastic use. Like, poor people use plastic, rich people use plastic. Middle income. People use plastic. Everybody. It's not like, for example, climate activist, someone could say like, oh, well, rich people in the first world, or have more climate emissions. Like Yeah, that's right. But plastic is egalitarian. Yeah. You know, someone who's barely struggling to get by in the third world is still using a ton of plastic. So it's,

Lindsay (01:08:53):

And even the people that are the most environmentally conscious people, even if you're buying a thing of strawberries that cost $23, which is an option, you can't away. It comes in a plastic plastic, you away a plastic container. Well, fortunately,

Armin (01:09:04):

You see, you see small things are changing. You know, if you go to a, i I was just at a, at, at a store here, and they, they don't give plastic bags anymore. They just give paper. California. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Yeah. So that's,

Lindsay (01:09:15):

I think, or is it Los Angeles County where you can't give plastic bags anymore?

Armin (01:09:18):

Amazing. Yeah. That's a start. So let's, let's, let's be, try to be positive and, and let's see that as, as, as a good sign. Oh yeah. It's a beginning. It's a start. People are getting more and more aware. But I, I do feel guilty for flying so much, you know, uh, traveling, I know that that is really polluting the planet. And it's something that really bothers me. And, you know, if I take the train to the, to the airport, which mm-hmm <affirmative>. Doesn't make sense, but I live next to the train station. And, uh, yeah. Then, then I hop on a, on a, on a, on a, on a, on a, on an aircraft that is polluting the planet. And sometimes, yeah. It really bothers me, to be honest.

Moby (01:09:52):

It's, yeah. Yeah. But then I have to remind myself, okay, like, I'm one of 10 billion people and I'm gonna try and do my best to make things better. But for example, if I buy a new pair of socks and they come in a plastic wrapper, my immediate response is to be mad at myself and be like, oh, I'm so bad for doing this. Why couldn't I make my own socks and grow my own cotton or something? As opposed to being like, okay, they're 10 billion people. Like, we're individuals. We can do, do our best. But there's still so much we're never going to be able to do. Like,

Lindsay (01:10:30):

And, and there's science that's working on it now. And there's this company that I use called Rid Well, that helps you recycle hard to recycle things like plastic bags, which plastic film cannot be recycled normally. Cool. But there are companies that will come pick up these like, uh, multilayer plastics, plastic films, uh, keys, bottle caps, and find ways to recycle them. And they're popping up in more and more cities. So hopefully people,

Armin (01:10:52):

You guys are more advanced than we in the middle <laugh>.

Lindsay (01:10:56):

I seriously doubt that. <laugh>. I doubt that. Yeah.

Armin (01:10:58):

Well, we have, we have, uh, we, every week we, one week we have the remainder of garbage, and the next week we have recycled garbage. So everything from the kitchen goes into a different minute. And then we have a paper, uh, the other week they come for paper. So

Lindsay (01:11:11):

That's nice. That's better. Yeah.

Armin (01:11:13):

It's good. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's better. It's a start. And

Lindsay (01:11:15):

Yeah, it's

Moby (01:11:15):

Something. So, what else do you want? Because I, I have a few more. I, I still, of course, my inclination is to go back and talk about like, little nerdy.

Lindsay (01:11:24):

Oh, I know, I know. You're really finding that right now. <laugh>.

Moby (01:11:27):

So Lindsay, what do you want to, I

Lindsay (01:11:29):

Guess I, I would love to talk about, and maybe this is too soon, but what, what are you doing next? What are your, what are your big plans for yourself as an artist? Oh.

Moby (01:11:40):

And also sort of maybe adjacent to that, because touring and burning yourself out led to a sort of like physical, spiritual, bottoming out. How do you keep, 'cause how do you keep doing? 'cause you're traveling constantly. You're doing, you're, you're from the outside, your life looks the same. So in addition to like a gratitude list and whatever, what other practices keep you healthy and sane? What you're being so busy and traveling around the world?

Armin (01:12:08):

Gym, gym. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Working out. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, eating healthy, uh, and not, and finding balance in the diary is super important. Like, I, uh, I'm really strict in myself with the number of gigs anymore. I mean, for me, it's the hardest thing ever, ever to say no to shows. Yeah. Especially the big ones. Like, for example, I used to have my own night in Ibiza, uh, for 16 years. Played pretty much every club there. And I love the island, but I had to say no to residency. So I'm only playing September at Usia, which is my favorite club. And it's an amazing event and I love playing there. But, you know, I wanna give my kids a proper school holiday with a father who's actually there, you know, who's not only physically present, but also spiritually present. And yeah, I think my kids deserve that. You know, they deserve to have, I mean, I said yes to kids, so I need to, uh, I need them, you know, take my responsibility and that's what I want as well. So it's not so much only for them, but it's also for me, you know what I'm on. So this, this, this summer I had an amazing month of July where I toured at all the big festivals and then came home. And then for three and a half weeks I was in Greece doing absolutely nothing. Absolutely nothing. I'm really good at doing nothing. <laugh>, just reading, reading books.

Lindsay (01:13:22):

Not everyone is good at that.

Moby (01:13:23):

I'm not good at

Armin (01:13:24):

<laugh> just doing nothing. Reading books, uh, talking with my wife a lot, uh, you know, watching a good movie, uh, spending time with doing games. We love doing games as a family. I think that's the best way to connect. You know, card games and all that sort of stuff. Playing chess with my son, uh, being in the pool and like, just normal family stuff. And it, I, I never thought I'd say this, but it actually makes me happy. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. It's a bit cliche, but it's, it really makes me happy. So, uh, last year it was so funny, I took a whole month of July off and the first gig was at Tomorrowland second weekend. And I arrived at Tomorrowland and I was, I had a tan. And, you know, I felt great. So, and I walked into the backstage seeing all these other DJs who were like, in full on tour mode with bottles of Waca and, you know, Hey man, where did you play last night? And, you know, I was like, I just came from a sunbed and just read books. And everybody's like, wow, you look healthy for <laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. A DJ that's touring. And it's like, everybody, all those DJs there on are on the never ending tour. And you just keep going. And I look at them now with different eyes, I'm like, oh God, I've been there. Good luck. Yeah. Where do you play tomorrow night, Kunos? The night after Berlin. Oh, good luck. Oh,

Moby (01:14:29):

And then the night after that Las Vegas and the night after that,

Lindsay (01:14:32):

Oxland. I mean, it sounds so exhausting.

Armin (01:14:34):

Yeah. So,

Lindsay (01:14:35):

But you get just on the ster

Moby (01:14:36):

Wheel, you do get used to it, but it does catch up with you, especially, you know, like time passes. Well, yeah.

Armin (01:14:42):

And you miss, you miss, so you miss out on, on so many things. You miss out on, on, on a lot of beautiful stuff. And now I want to embrace that. So, um, I spent, I, I met my friends again. We're doing escape rooms. Have you heard of Escape Rooms? Oh,

Lindsay (01:14:54):

I love a good escape room.

Armin (01:14:55):

Escape room is so much fun. Yeah. And I, have you ever done

Moby (01:14:57):

One? I have not, but I ever, I'm the only person I know who hasn't done one. Um, I'm gonna make

Lindsay (01:15:03):

You go do, they're

Moby (01:15:04):

Really fun. Yeah.

Armin (01:15:04):

It's, and it's like a, watching a good movie, you're like so into so busy trying to escape that room and doing all the puzzles and stuff that you don't have anything else to do. So stuff like that. Um, I, I think there's a, a lot more beauty in life than electronic music. Uh, I, I don't worry. I will never quit making, uh, electronic music. 'cause you know, I will always do that. But I find myself being more inspired, being less in the studio and doing other things in life. Uh, like reading, uh, I dunno, just going to a friend, you know? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. It's, uh, going to museums is one of my new passions. I love museums. I mean, thank God that they're there. I I, I just love that. Um, spending time with the kids. Um, yeah. Doing homework with my daughter now. 'cause she's now in, uh, middle school and it's like seeing all the math that I, I didn't understand. Now I have to explain to her. <laugh>. Uh, yeah. So what about the future? 'cause you were asking, um, yeah, piano lessons. I am actually making a lot of piano pieces at the moment. So

Moby (01:16:00):

Are there any, have you discovered other genres of music through piano? Like classical or,

Armin (01:16:06):

Um,

Armin (01:16:08):

I recently went to a Han Zimmer concert. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. I, I really, I'm really inspired by that. And I, yeah. I guess you can also hear it in my music a little bit because I've just, you know, the piano lessons have had a big impact on me creatively. Um, just because you, you really, I mean, I never, I always started with an eight bar loop in a sequencer, you know, putting some drums and then a sample, and then a baseline. And then, you know, arranging from that. That's how I used to work. Now I sit behind a piano and I think of a melody and I have a recorder and I record that melody, or I sing a melody in my phone. I have a lot of me singing on my phone. Mm-hmm

Moby (01:16:42):

<affirmative>.

Armin (01:16:42):

And then I just go into the studio and, and, and make that into a piece.

Moby (01:16:46):

Have you discovered, like, um, some of my obvious favorites, like the French impressionists? Like wct? Yeah. Just in terms of like, and then early, like even George Gershwin. 'cause George Gershwin was a huge WC fan. Yeah. Yeah. In terms of, one of the things as a musician that I found really inspiring on piano is changing up the chord. Voicings.

Lindsay (01:17:09):

What does that mean?

Moby (01:17:10):

It, I wish we had a keyboard here. It's basically like if you're playing an A minor chord, traditionally be a CE mm-hmm <affirmative>. But then you can also start the C with an E and have the A up here. And then if you add in, let's say like the whole step of, you had like a G Yeah. In the step of a B. So you get this, these clusters.

Lindsay (01:17:28):

Is that interpolation?

Moby (01:17:29):

I don't know what that word means. So I'm gonna say

Lindsay (01:17:31):

Perhaps someone said it once. It sounds like maybe it could be that <laugh>.

Armin (01:17:34):

Yeah, it's true. Very

Moby (01:17:35):

True. But it's that, and like the French impressionists, like WC and Sat were really sort of at the forefront. 'cause that's sort of like rebuilding chords with like clusters and different voicings for the longest time was sort of frowned upon. Mm. Like it was a little too strange, but it can be really emotional at the same time. Well,

Armin (01:17:55):

One of the things I discovered, for example, we were playing this, uh, I think Jim Nopa by Eric Satit. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Everybody can play that on the piano, right? Uh, so I've started playing some more pieces of satit. 'cause I, I, I really wanted to, I just wanted to learn why. I mean, all these people can't be stupid for loving that piece. So I just wanna know, you know, at first I was like, okay, so I was learning the chords, but then my teacher was sitting next to me. It was like, and I was going a completely different way. So I would start with the, the, the, the three chords that were on the, on the score. And then I was just, I would just change the melody. I was like, yeah, because he goes this direction, but my gut tells me I need, I want to go here.

Armin (01:18:28):

And he's like, oh. So at first he was really like, no, we can't do that. It's not the rules. It's not the rules. But then he started to understand that what I was doing, it was actually composing. So I get inspiration from the, the, the two or three starting chords, but then I go to a different direction. 'cause I think it's much more interesting for me. So that is sort of embracing that, um, artist in me, which for him was a, it was really difficult at first. But then we started to compose these pieces together 'cause he understood that I'm too much of an artist to, so I used Satit as an inspiration, or, or Chopin for that matter. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And started playing the first two chords. And then I just go my own way. You know what I mean? And I just get, I use that as an inspiration for my own music making. And that's, that's so bizarre. It's like, uh, you know, you have these paintings. Uh, I like the analog with the, with paintings. Uh, you have these paintings you can buy where you have like a forest, but it's only, uh, you see white and you see black lines. And then the numbers where you have to put the color

Moby (01:19:27):

Paint by numbers. Yeah,

Armin (01:19:27):

Yeah. Paint by numbers. Uh, so I could never do that. 'cause I started, I'll start making trees bigger. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Because I just think it's, it's more interesting that way. That's is how I am as an artist. So embracing that, I would not paint the exact numbers, but I would, oh, green. Why, why do you say that? That number has to be green? I want it to be brown. 'cause I think it's, it's autumn and you know, it's more interesting that way to look at. So that's how I am as a musician. Like, um, I just wanna make music. Why make

Lindsay (01:19:54):

Your thing when I could do it? Huh? Like my thing. Yeah. You know?

Armin (01:19:58):

Yeah. So, uh, unfortunately my piano teacher let me, I had another piano teacher who was more strict. Like, no, you can't, you have to play it like this. And you know, it says here Forte Mete. So you have to be, you know, I'm like, who? Why? You know, this

Lindsay (01:20:12):

Isn't the military. Exactly.

Armin (01:20:14):

<laugh>.

Moby (01:20:15):

Yeah. That, that I, I, Lindsay, I think we were talking about this at one point I was working with a classical musician and I sat in front of the piano and I was like, Hey, let's just play something. And she was like, what do, what do you mean? And I was like, you know, just play. And I put my hands on the keyboards and I was just messing around playing stuff. And they

Armin (01:20:33):

Can't

Moby (01:20:34):

Do that. And she sat down and she started crying. 'cause she had never once played a note on piano that didn't come from score that was put in front of her. She couldn't Yeah. Improvise. And it broke her heart. 'cause she'd, she'd been told by her teachers for years and years. You have to play what's written in front of you perfectly. That's the only thing you've Yeah.

Armin (01:20:55):

But I think, oh, there's also beauty to it. I mean, why are you, why are you Moby, why are you so successful? That's because you are a unique being. Just like I am a unique being and you are a unique being. I think God has put us on this planet. 'cause we're all unique beings and we're supposed to think differently. That's why we find Einstein. Yeah. You know, 'cause he thought differently. And he's, he's given us this beautiful knowledge and all these beautiful formulas. I think the, there's a lot of truth that we have to, we, we have to start to embrace each other's fact. That we are all different. We are all different. And it's supposed to be like that. We are supposed to disagree on some things. If we would all like the same music and we would all like the same paintings and would be boring as hell. And we would get nowhere because that would be no evolution. But the fact that we are all different, I think is something we need to embrace.

Moby (01:21:44):

Right. Bagel. Yes.

Lindsay (01:21:45):

<laugh>. She's like, that got her up. Yeah. Um,

Armin (01:21:48):

She's been so, so sweet and quiet. I

Lindsay (01:21:50):

Know. She's very quiet.

Moby (01:21:51):

I know. So you have to go, 'cause you, you're, you're DJing some big festival in Orange County? Yeah.

Armin (01:21:57):

No, at the, at Long Beach.

Moby (01:21:58):

Yeah. Long Beach. Even further away. I don't, it's probably even closer, but further away on a Friday night. Y I'm sorry. Um, that's great.

Armin (01:22:06):

I'm looking forward to it. Actually.

Lindsay (01:22:08):

I love Long Beach. Underrated, in my opinion.

Armin (01:22:10):

No, but this is like, it's called Dream State and it's about trans. So it's kinda like going back to my roots. That

Lindsay (01:22:16):

Sounds fun. I

Armin (01:22:17):

Can be a little bit, a little bit more me, which is great. And, uh, I'm excited about that.

Moby (01:22:22):

Yeah. I I I love trans music. We should listen to like a gr like top 20 greatest trans hits, half of which would be your music <laugh>.

Lindsay (01:22:30):

Yeah. No, I definitely,

Moby (01:22:31):

But it's really like, it was, I remember in the late nineties, first being exposed to it. And a friend of mine was a big trance DJ in Connecticut. And, um, some of, I mean like, 'cause they were, they're epic. You know, there was like 5, 6, 7, 8 minute songs that built and with the like three minute breakdowns, it's like people

Armin (01:22:50):

Cry. Yeah.

Moby (01:22:50):

It was very, I mean, there's a reason why you were DJ magazine's number one DJ in the world five years in a row. I mean, that's pretty spectacular. And it's because it was the, not just your talent, but just the emotion that, that, you know, 'cause there's a lot of house music and electronic music that's exciting, but not emotional. You know, it's the bringing that beauty and the, the melodies and the chords to, to dance music. It's such a powerful combination. Thank

Armin (01:23:19):

You. Thank you. It means a lot. Especially coming from you. It's a, it's a big honor. You know, um, I still, um, it feels weird, but in a way I'm still the, that that young guy with the yellow Walkman listening to those early mm-hmm <affirmative>. Dance records. 'cause that's who's sitting here, you know, I know. I'm now, I'm 47. And with all this achievements, and don't get me wrong, I'm super proud of them. I'm not gonna downplay them, but you'll always be that, I'll always be that guy driving my, my bike to school through the rain with the big yellow Walkman listening to your first productions and I don't know, the shaman and, uh, the Prodigy and mm-hmm <affirmative>. Uh, front two for two. And you know, I I, I ate it all up. So

Lindsay (01:23:58):

Also that's when the, the spark happens. The fire is lit. And that is, I think the, it's what keeps you going.

Moby (01:24:04):

Yeah. And what's sustain the level. One of the things that sustains us is that sort of, that childlike joy and enthusiasm and we're fans.

Armin (01:24:11):

Oh,

Moby (01:24:12):

Absolutely. Just like it's, we started as fans and what keeps us going is we're still fans of like, just that excitement of what music can do. You know?

Armin (01:24:21):

Well, uh, I if you, if you really wanna look at it from a scientific point of view, music is trembling air

Moby (01:24:26):

<laugh>. Yeah.

Armin (01:24:28):

It's nothing. But, you know, there's, there's a speaker

Moby (01:24:31):

Molecules. Yeah. And,

Armin (01:24:32):

And those, that speaker moves the air and on planet Earth. So we're lucky that there's air around us so it can transport the sound to your eardrum. And then something interesting happens because you hear it, your eardrum starts to move and it's information that your brain starts to interpret. And you start giving meaning to that, to that trembling of your eardrum. But what is that? You know, we can't, and you know, I know we have AI now, and I don't want to go into that whole discussion mm-hmm <affirmative>. 'cause I know that's like a whole different topic. But what is a hit and what is not, what is a good record or what isn't a good record is, is something that computers to, to this day, uh, in 2024, maybe in a few years will be different. But they can't predict it. It's a feeling. And that's the beauty of it. You know, you can, I've spent hours and hours and so many dollars on songs that didn't do anything at all. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. I always like to say to people like, oh, you're so successful. And, um, yeah. Thank you. Yeah. I've had a few hit records, but I would say that 80% of the music I released did absolutely nothing. Yeah. But you'll be reminded for the 20% that did. Yeah.

Moby (01:25:36):

Part, I mean, that is part of being, I think a writer, a musician, an artist, anything is accepting. Like, you have to love what you're doing because best case scenario, 1% of what you release might find an audience. Exactly. You know, if you don't love the other 99%, you're gonna drive yourself crazy.

Armin (01:25:53):

Well, look at the Beatles. You know, I I I'm always fascinated about them. I mean, they were together for like eight years or something. Seven, eight years.

Moby (01:26:00):

Yeah. Like, like I think the first one probably count 62 and they broke up in 70. So Yeah, like eight or eight. Eight

Lindsay (01:26:06):

Or nine. That's so insane to me. I never really processed how short of a time they

Armin (01:26:09):

Actually worked. So they made a lot of music. So they made about 300 songs or 200. I don't know. I, I don't wanna get into fights with Beatle enthusiast,

Moby (01:26:18):

But it's Jonathan who's editing this is the world's biggest Beatle enthusiast. Okay. So I'm curious to see his response. 'cause he'll, I, he's such a sweet, adorable nerd. He'll probably be like, actually, well they made 427 recording pieces of music, <laugh>, but they also had like, sorry Jonathan. I know that that's exactly the thought that's going through your head, right? No,

Armin (01:26:37):

But my, my, the point I wanna make is that they made, let's say 300 songs. I may be wrong, but let's say they make 300 songs. 100 songs of them are classics. You know, strawberry Fields, penny Lane, A Day In The Life, uh, hey, I don't know, there's so many. I mean, the list goes on and on. Then there's another 100 songs that are amazing, really good. Not hits, but they were great album tracks and amazing. And then there's 100 tracks that

Armin (01:27:05):

Are interesting, <laugh>, you know what I mean? So number nine for example, is, is one of those is very experimental hat off to them for actually trying stuff like that. But they also dare to venture out a little bit, which is why they were so brilliant. But I think that specific track has always been a bit like, what is that? You know, it, it was a sonic experiment. Super interesting. And it proves my point that if even The Beatles didn't make, you know, 300 hits hit records, but, um, they made a, a few hits and, and then a few not so successful tracks. Yeah.

Moby (01:27:40):

Which is fine. No career is sustained by the Hits. It's ra sustained by the Love for the Misses. Yeah. You know, like when, when you're like, you know what, I released this music. No one else liked it. No one cared. But I loved making it and I really love it. That's what, that's what keeps you going year after year after.

Armin (01:27:57):

Exactly. And that should be a tip to anybody making music. Don't give up. 'cause I think your, your latest release is only another step in your big hit, which will come as if you keep going. You know, never quit. 'cause you know, the first 10 years I made music, it didn't do well at all. I like, you know, I was happy if I sold 500 copies. That for me was a success. You know, the success didn't come until like 15 years later at Sheeran said it. Beautiful. You have to first make 100 really terrible records that you have to get them out of your system and then you start making decent ones. Yeah. And there's a truth to that, I think.

Moby (01:28:31):

Okay. Well, we're gonna let you go to glamorous LBC <laugh>. Um, thank

Armin (01:28:36):

You

Moby (01:28:37):

And have a wonderful show night. And honestly, thank you so much for coming over. This was a really, and you're, as Lindsay was saying, your vulnerability and your honesty. Thank you

Armin (01:28:46):

So much.

Moby (01:28:47):

It's really a lot. It's been wonderful spending this time with you. Thank

Armin (01:28:50):

You. Oh, thank you. You make me, uh, you make me blush guys. <laugh>

Lindsay (01:28:53):

<laugh>. That's our goal here at Moby Pod <laugh>.

Moby (01:29:04):

Okay, so first off, Lynn Moby, I have to apologize for something. Why?

Lindsay (01:29:10):

What,

Moby (01:29:11):

Because you had, there were so many interesting things that we talked about with Armand. Um, but I also went down so many middle-aged guy electronic music rabbit holes.

Lindsay (01:29:21):

I, I know that you needed to get that out of your system and I'm really, really happy for you that you got to because those are <laugh>, the pingle

Moby (01:29:31):

Bingle,

Lindsay (01:29:31):

She's really needing attention today. So

Moby (01:29:34):

Good.

Lindsay (01:29:35):

Because those aren't conversations that we can have because I don't know these things. Yeah. I don't know the equipment. I don't know the names. Uh, maybe one day I will, but not today. So I'm really, really glad that you got to experience that with our dear friend Armand. Wow.

Moby (01:29:48):

So I'm a little distracted. Bagel Bagel. No, she's doing great. <laugh>. Um, so good girl. Yeah. But I did like, I feel like I could have gone down one old electronic music rabbit hole and that would've been enough. The fact that I had to keep going down electronic music rabbit holes, that's bagel <laugh>.

Lindsay (01:30:06):

I'm sure that there are Bagel

Moby (01:30:08):

What are you

Lindsay (01:30:09):

Doing? I'm sure that there are lots of people out there who will actually really, really appreciate those rabbit holes. Um, so I'm glad that you had that.

Moby (01:30:16):

Um, okay. And then, so the next episode, hi babe. Um, is going to be, we don't quite know what it's gonna be, but it's gonna be our year end episode. And there's a world in which it might involve a DJ mix.

Lindsay (01:30:33):

A lot could happen. Yep.

Moby (01:30:34):

Um, so do you want, shoot, do you wanna say goodbye to everybody? Yes,

Lindsay (01:30:38):

I do. I want, are you okay? Yeah. Bagel

Moby (01:30:41):

No, she's doing, she's, she's So being a kind of extra emotional Yeah. Yeah. So while bagels being emotional. Okay,

Lindsay (01:30:47):

I'll, I'll do some talking. First of all, I wanna say thank you. I wanna <laugh> she just hit you.

Moby (01:30:54):

<laugh> Don't

Lindsay (01:30:55):

Love. Okay. Um, I wanna say thank you to everybody that listens to Moby Pod and engages with us and sends questions and comments. Um,

Moby (01:31:06):

The bagel hitting the microphone with the tail is the funniest thing. I

Lindsay (01:31:10):

Mean, she's just directly on it. It's like she's trying to,

Moby (01:31:12):

I'm trying to imagine Jonathan editing that. Okay. And just turn to multitask or like drink tea. Play with bagel. Listen to you. Okay. This is professionalism, right? This is

Lindsay (01:31:24):

As professional as it gets. Yeah. Um, good job. <laugh>. Oh my God.

Moby (01:31:35):

She's trying to,

Lindsay (01:31:38):

Um, okay. Al you're being a big distraction right now. Um,

Moby (01:31:44):

Thank you to people.

Lindsay (01:31:45):

Thank you. Thank you to everybody who listens to Moby Pod, who engages with posts and on YouTube and who sends us nice messages. Um, I also wanna say thank you to what Nice messages. Oh. 'cause we get a lot of mean ones too. <laugh>.

Moby (01:32:04):

I don't, yeah. I, I just ignore anything mean. Uh,

Lindsay (01:32:07):

I wish I could. My therap, I read them to my therapist, um, <laugh>

Moby (01:32:11):

<laugh>.

Lindsay (01:32:12):

Um, uh, so thank you for that. And then also I wanna say thank you to Aaron Steeler who does the video for this podcast. Um, and to Jonathan Neba who edits the audio like a champion. And I wanna say thank you to our dear, dear friends at Human Content who put this podcast out into the world. And thank you to bagels tail for making sure the microphones are on. And thank you to you for being you.

Moby (01:32:43):

And we'll talk to you in two weeks. And in the meantime, have a wonderful holiday, however you choose to celebrate. Yeah. Even if you don't choose to celebrate, lots of people don't just

Lindsay (01:32:53):

Have a nice time in general. Yeah.

Moby (01:32:55):

Okay. So we'll talk to you in two weeks. Bye.