Andrea: Welcome to Those Who Can't Do. I am Andrea Forgham, and today I have the incredibly talented Charles Fournier. Am I saying your name correctly? I feel like I've heard it enough. Okay, great. Because I am such a massive fan. Charles has a podcast that, um, for a little bit, he and I were very close in the Apple podcast charts, and he has just consistently stayed there.

And I'm not jealous. I'm Not salty or jealous at all that when people look up my podcast, sometimes his comes up first because it's named very, very similar. And he started his long, did his long before mine. So I kind of like came in after with a similar sounding names because your podcast is called Those Who Can't Teach Anymore.

Um, so Charles, do you want to kind of give people like A very short summary of what your podcast is and who you are before we jump in.

Charles: Those Who Can't Teach Anymore, the name came, my wife came up with the name, um, but my wife and I, we taught together when we started our career. She taught for seven years, uh, and then she left teaching and we kind of noticed like all these people that we love left teaching.

And so I wanted to, I think that was part of like,

And then we were watching this show, uh, with Joseph Gordon Levitt. I don't know if you remember. It's when he was a teacher and he's got like panic attacks and stuff. It was on for a really short amount of time. But at one point she said, why is it that teachers are always either like pathetic or heroes or that teaching is always a backup?

And that kind of got me thinking and I've been starting to do podcast stuff. And so the podcast is, uh, talking to teachers and looking at kind of the history of education and all the things that might contribute to why teachers are leaving, which is a lot. Uh, and so it's, Seven episodes trying to look at different angles throughout the whole thing.

Andrea: Yeah, and we're gonna just touch on it very, I would say, like a, like a shallow dip into some of it because, like Charles said, it's seven episodes and he goes into great depth and looks at so many angles. And, you know, when I was working on my dissertation, I found almost exactly the same things that you found when you were talking through it.

Um, but you did something that I think a lot of people don't do, which is you also came up with a couple of options for solutions, which. It's really refreshing because I feel like a lot of times people look at teacher attrition and they're like, there's too many problems. There's nothing we can do. And the podcast do such a good job of saying, actually, there's like these so many little things that we could do and adjust and, and all of that.

So I'm, I'm excited to, to dive in with you today talking about teacher attrition. So I'm going to kind of toss it to you a little bit. And, um, I know that you brought a USA Today story that kind of looks at that as well.

Charles: That article and I mean, it's pretty much everything on the teacher attrition is you know, they bring up pay, they bring up uh, phones and discipline, and you know, all the things as teachers we know.

It's all that stuff. And I What I think is interesting, I, I, uh, shared a, that old article, like a 1907 article from The Atlantic, which was super sexist, but there was also this kind of what he was talking about in education, it's the same issues. He said if you're a good teacher, you need to be essentially a martyr.

And you shouldn't be expected to get paid a lot because if you're paid a lot, then you don't realize the power of what you're doing. It was this really odd thing. And I feel like the culture around, uh, education is a big reason why, why teachers get burned out and why we don't feel valued or I don't know why, why, uh, we get home exhausted and just want to lay on the couch.

And so I think, you know, with, with everything that I've been looking at, You're an English teacher, right? This is awesome. So I feel like all my references end up going that way. Do you know Trifles by Susan Glaspell?

Andrea: It sounds really, really familiar.

Charles: It's a one act play from like 1916. And there's a line in there and it's kind of a dark play.

a woman who murders her husband, and then these two other women kind of like, cover it up for her. And one of the lines at the end is that, we live close together, we live far apart. We experience the same thing, it's just a different kind of same thing. And I feel like that's what we have as teachers in this whole project for me, and talking to teachers from all over the country at different levels of their career.

Everybody's going through the same thing, um, whether it be in the middle of the country or the coast, like it's all very similar. And I think that's something when we're looking at teacher attrition that it's not this far away thing like we can look locally and it's we're experiencing the same, very, very similar things.

Andrea: Yeah, I've I've seen the same thing. You know, I've taught in. Um, two different states as a high school teacher. I taught in Virginia, and then I taught in California, and now I'm, you know, preparing teachers here to go into classrooms in Indiana, and you're absolutely right. Like, they're dealing with the same things, the lack of engagement with students because they're just mentally kind of disassociating from most of their classes, checking in with their phones, all of that.

Um, and I recently have heard a big push from several states on this, like the state level where they're saying, okay, that's it. Like no phones at all in the schools. What is your take on that? Because that is like such a hot topic I'm seeing all over the place. And a lot of people You know, there are so many people who have had it happen in their schools, who have said it was a game changer for the positive.

Um, but then I personally know quite a few people who are like, I don't want my kid to go to school without their cell phone handy. What's your, your kind of take on that?

Charles: Yeah, you know, I'm, I'm on the side of, I would love not to have phones, just based on the issues of just them always, the kids are always on them or the, the bullying associated, And I feel like School did okay without phones for a really long time.

You know, you call the office, you get a note, uh, you have all these things. You don't really need to ask your kid what's for, like, what they want for dinner. Uh, and so I think there's maybe something healthy about having a little bit of a distance. And, and, That might help too with kids getting some autonomy and feeling like they can advocate for themselves and not having to call parents in to, you know, fight maybe small issues that like kids can, can speak up for themselves.

I feel like that might be part of that process. And, and being a college teacher, like I've taught college classes and I'll be going the college route again. That's a hard transition for a lot of kids of, of moving into the college setting and realizing, no, actually, if I just talk to my instructors, if I talk to my teachers, There's a lot of good there, and I feel like if we remove phones, then removing some of the distractions and also hopefully helping with social skills, that'd be rad.

That maybe for kids dating, it's coming up to somebody and saying, Hi, would you like to go out? Rather than

Andrea: Right. Just sending a Snapchat and like Yeah.

Charles: Oh, so creepy. Uh.

Andrea: Yeah, no, I think you're, you're absolutely right. And you, you talk a lot in the podcast, too, about, you the social element in the classroom and how, as teachers, we're managing so much when it comes to helping students develop social skills, which has always been the case, but really exacerbated after, um, the COVID pandemic and everyone had to come back and then re figure out how to do the people thing again.

Like, it was, it was brutal. Do you think that Removal of phones from schools could potentially help with teacher attrition. Like, do you, do you see a through line there?

Charles: Yeah. You know, and I think, I think part of the through line, I don't know, every, every time I find like a different issue of why maybe teachers are leaving, I feel like it all comes back to kind of like a cultural understanding of what education's for and how we value education.

And so the idea for me is like, if you remove phones from education, then to me that shows you value education. And if education is valued, then teachers are inherently valued. And then the whole kind of structure gets a little bit better. Um, I think about spaces where people don't have phones because they respect the place and they, or they respect the space.

They respect the people in that space. And I feel like that kind of correlates that it's not just the phones. Like that's not a Things that are, that are not shown on the screen. And I don't mean to be all end all, but it's a part of a larger, I think, issue of, do we value education? And if we value education, maybe we should set up the structure of the space a little bit so that it shows we value education.

Andrea: Yeah, I think you're totally right. And I think that part of the reason that we get so nervous, like, uh, you know, for me as a parent, my kids don't have phones, they're four and six. They have no need for a phone at this stage. Um, but I. I think about, you know, when they're getting into high school and all of that.

I think at that age, when kids are already pushing for independence, I think parents are grappling with the fact that they are having to let go and lose some, some portions of control. And so I think, and with everything that's happening in the world right now, we already feel very out of control. And I think that having our phones gives us a sense of security, a false sense of security, that we have control over these things, right?

Um, one of the main reasons I've been told that, uh, parents, from parents, um, that they want their kid to have a phone is if there's a school shooting. And I'm like, sweetie, like, I, I, I understand that on the level of, like, I want to be able to call and talk to my kid if that's safe. It's a situation, but to be so for real, you don't want your kid on the phone if that's happening.

You want your kid thinking about surviving, not thinking about how can I, you know, and again, like, that's such a teeny tiny, like, God forbid that ever happens scenario, but that is, of course, the number one concern in having that phone. They're like, well, that gives me a sense of control, but really, like, it doesn't.

Right. Like, so. And I, I think that it's all of our security blankets is like, well, if I have my phone, then I have a, like, I can control something, but it doesn't, it kind of just controls us.

Charles: I think what you're saying, I mean, that's, That's so valid. And I think parents, that fear is extraordinarily valid. I mean, yeah, if you can have any control in this situation.

And I think this is kind of to a larger conversation about education. We can't damn any side. I think that's something that we've got to be very careful of because. There is logic to why you would want a phone on your kid. Um, this is also, man, it's kind of dark, but uh, we had like the SWAT come in and they did active drills in the school and it was terrifying and it freaked me out and it was really weird and they were shooting live rounds, but one of the things they did point out as Again, as a teacher, like having to turn a kit and learning how to stuff, ridiculous.

But, um, the phone issue, they're like, really, you should make sure your kids are off the phone so that everything's open and there's like nothing's getting clogged. So yes, I understand the want to connect to your kid, but also if that is the situation you're concerned about, then maybe

Andrea: it's actually

Charles: best if they're not on their phone.

Andrea: Right. Exactly. I think you're, you're right on. Like the nuance of that, that concern and that fear is so. incredibly profound. Like you, we, and, and it is really scary to live in a world where we can't just send the kids to school and just know that they're safe. And as a teacher, I've, there was one school where they made us like physically move furniture to like play out how we could block the door and we would have to find weapons in our classrooms.

And I, I did never had to do a tourniquet one. Isn't there a specific, isn't it like a specific kind of training, uh,

Charles: It's, yeah, we got a, I got a certificate.

Andrea: Yeah. That,

Charles: again, it just felt ridiculous.

Andrea: I can't remember what the name of the training is, but it's very common. Like, I've heard of it, a lot of schools doing it, and it's very traumatizing because they are literally making it sound like there's a shooting in the school in the hopes that if there ever was a shooting in the school, you would not be so jarred that you could not function.

Right. But it kind of just traumatizes you to the point where like, now on a normal day when someone drops a, you know, a book on the ground, you jump and Yes. Are immediately triggered. Yes, and I'm like

Charles: looking through my window before I opened my door, seeing like what's in your hands, yeah.

Andrea: Yeah, it's

Charles: You know, this is really odd.

And Your husband's gone medical field. Is that right?

Andrea: Yeah. He's a physician assistant now, but he was a paramedic before.

Charles: Okay. So my wife just went from teaching to pharmacy and she's working like in the ER and ICU. And there was something that came up recently where they said, okay, we were going to practice Like, what would happen in a shooting?

But we don't want to traumatize anyone, so we're not going to do that. And I, she said, wait a second, we do this to students just about every month.

Yeah.

But people that actually see like horrible stuff, you don't want to traumatize them? What

Andrea: is

Charles: going on? And I think Yeah, I don't know. There's a lot of, uh, a lot of irony.

Andrea: Yeah. And, you know, I think it all comes from places of good intent where they're thinking, like, we want so badly to protect kids, so we need to practice. We practice fire drills. Why not practice this? But it's, it's not the same. And it is like, I feel like this generation of kids is getting a real warped sense of humor, too, because of having to do this.

And unfortunately, because you do it often enough, they're like, They don't take it very seriously. Even if you have, like, the very stern conversation, I would always be like, you know, this is not a joke, but, like, you know, we would be hiding quietly in the classroom, and then someone would play a soundbite from a movie that sounded sexual, you know, and then they're all giggling, and it's really hard to just be like, Guys, we could be, like Yeah.

Because you don't want to traumatize them, but you do want them to take it serious. It's quite the balance that we have to strike. But with Teacher attrition, what do you think, if you could identify like one or two things as like the biggest culprits for teacher attrition, what do you think that those would be?

Charles: I think workload is a big part of it. Um, and, and, you know, people always bring up pay. But I feel like if the workload matched the pay, it would be fine.

Andrea: Yeah.

Charles: Um, but like there's, there's a, there's a disconnect there. And I think also just the, I think the overall valuing of education, the, the lack of, I don't want to say respect, but kind of a lack of respect towards teachers and towards education.

I mean, it feels, uh, it's hard to feel valued sometimes within an education system. And that's hard. Like I, I come from a building where. Um, I, my admin was awesome and I felt a lot of support from them, but, you know, from the larger district or from the, the, the narrative that's coming across through like Wyoming legislature, I don't feel valued.

I feel like I'm a threat to their kids. And so when we have that sort of rhetoric and that sort of language, it's kind of like a, uh, you know, cause and effect. You say this, of course people are going to react and want to get away because you're, you're accusing them of something terrible.

Andrea: Yeah.

Charles: Um, and so I think a lot of it has to do with just.

how we speak about teachers and how we think about teachers. And honestly, I think the history of education hasn't done us any favors. Um, and I don't think pop culture is doing us really any favors. Like, I love Abbott Elementary, but it's still a comedy.

Andrea: Yeah.

Charles: And I think it's wonderful. I'm like, yeah, it's horrible.

But then we're like, ha,

ha, ha,

ha, they don't have supplies. And then that's it. Um, and so, you know, I think taking it more seriously or just trying to And we're all just trying to, like, lift up teachers as human beings rather than as slobs or martyrs or anything that's not practical. Like, we're all pretty imperfect and we're trying really hard and we care a lot about your kids, but, um, yeah, we're not, we're not gonna be everything for everybody, and sometimes that's hard for folks to hear.

Andrea: Yeah, it is. And, you know, I think about like the workload situation because I worked at two different schools back to back. One was a very small private school. Where I had five separate preps that I was teaching and I did not have any team because at private schools I and I loved that school. I loved my time there.

The admin was wonderful. The kids were great. My class sizes were small. And so it's all the things you kind of are hoping the parents were very involved sometimes a bit. aggressively involved, but they were involved. You know, like if you called home, the phone worked and the person answered, you know. Um, a lot of times the phone calls were coming the other way and saying, why is my kid, you know, it was that kind of a situation.

But I, the workload was so horrible. Like, I mean, I was teaching five different classes. That meant that in every class, you had to teach three novels. So I had to teach 15 novels over the course of one year. And when I started, I had not read any of them since I was in high school. So I'm sitting there like listening to The Scarlet Letter on my way to school, like sitting at like my lunch break reading Great Gatsby.

Like it was so many novels. And then on top of that, creating lesson plans. for five separate classes every single day. Like I, people who are not teachers, I think it's so hard for them to like think about that of like pedagogically when we are looking at something and we need to have like an icebreaker and then we need to do some sort of fun introductory activity that ties to their real life but also ties to what we're doing.

Then you need to do a little bit of direct instruction and then they need to do a little pair work and then maybe a little independent work, right? Okay, now do that. But for five separate classes, and you need to actually know what you're talking about, because they'll definitely know if you don't. And it was so much.

I mean, I was working, I would come in all day on Saturdays to make sure, and it was, you know, we didn't, it wasn't a one to one school, so I had to have paper copies of everything we were doing. And so, I mean, I was working so many hours and I was making way less money. A lot of people think private school, you make more money.

And then, I'm sure there are schools that's the case. At my school, I was making about 30 grand less than I would have at the public school. And so I taught there for three years and then I switched into the public school. And like I said, 30 grand upgrade in my pay scale. And then I only had two preps. My class sizes were huge.

I had 40 kids in each class, which was so big. It's so massive. But I was so much more relaxed because I had a team of like five or six other people and I had only two classes to prepare for. I only had to think about two lesson plans. That was like, so easy to me. I was like, this is the easiest thing I've ever done.

It was amazing. And I, I just, whenever I'm talking to different. You know, districts and I've been talking to professors and admin, they're just, you know, kind of like, man, what do we do to try and make it better for teachers? I'm like, well, for starters, like, why are we giving first year teachers the hardest classes to teach?

We know that freshman lower level group is going to be just terrors to that poor new teacher. Why are we giving them that class? And why are we giving them three separate or four separate preps? Like, limit their preps and give them classes that you know are going to be, you know, middle of the ground, at middle of it, at least, you know?

Um, I always think that, I think back to my, my first year of teaching, they gave me 12th graders who were remedial level. And they, like, there were kids coming in with like ankle monitors who had quite literally just gotten out of prison. And I'm like, You know, straight, straight from my classes, thinking I'm gonna, here we go, guys, like.

Charles: Oh my, that, I, neat, that was my, I had, uh. In my first school, that was, it was the, like, whatever, the remedial or ACM class. And it was, yeah, these kids had, a lot of kids come back as parents and, you know, had their two year old on their hip. I was like, wow, you're, you're way more mature than I am. And

Andrea: yeah, and have way more responsibility than we've got.

It's wild. Absolutely wild. So. On a

Charles: super tangent.

Andrea: Yeah. I

Charles: had a kid who came back. He just got out of, uh, Juvie and I'm a wrestling coach and it was my first year. I was so excited and the school had, like, the kids on the wrestling team had found out some of my background. They went and looked up all my matches and they were talking trash in the hallway like, well, I see you lost to this guy.

I was like, what is going on? And then, uh, first open mat comes up and this kid, he's like, 300 pound monster, big, strong kid just got out of juvie and he's like calling me out. It was terrifying. And so I'm like, well, I gotta do it. I'm a young teacher. I gotta, I gotta not. It was, yeah, it was scary. I did okay.

But it was, uh, yeah, I think that world of, um, there's something I think really, um, Good about that setting. Also, yeah, you're right. It's, for new teachers, that, that can be terrifying.

Andrea: Yeah. And you just, you, you don't really, especially if you, you know, start teaching right out of college. I was a little older.

I was like mid twenties. But be, and, and a lot of people forget, like, you can stay in high school in some states until 21, which was the case at the school I was teaching at. So I was teaching some that were like 20 because they kept, you know, failing, falling back, failing, falling back. And so I would have kids that were not kids.

Then I was. Five years at that point older than them and clearly did not know what I was doing and they're just like look at this girl This is embarrassing. What did you

Charles: do to try to to make yourself seem like an adult?

Andrea: Oh my gosh. I remember vividly I this was like 2013 so I had like cardigans for days like dress pants Like little ballet flats, because that was the look.

I'd like, if you google like Pinterest teacher, that was my entire wardrobe, like button ups and like slacks, ballet flats, and just rinse and repeat over and over again. I did everything I could to look as boring as I could, an adult as I could, because I just, I was so scared of not being taken seriously and it did nothing because I had zero classroom management skills.

So, what about

Charles: you? I love, I, you know, I love the, uh, it's anything to try to look like you're an adult and it's, the kids see through it. Like I would wear, I'd wear a sweater vest, I'd wear a tie every day, I'd comb my hair. I tried to grow facial hair at the time and, you know, I wore slacks, I ironed everything.

And then this girl in one of my classes started calling me Mr. Fancy Pants. Like, oh, Mr. Fancy Pants. That was my name. She just called me Mr. Fancy Pants. And then I see her maybe eight years later, she's working in a store and she's like, Mr. Fancy. And I'm like, God dang it. All right. Yeah, I know. I was trying really hard.

Andrea: Right. Exactly. That's the thing is no matter what you do, then they're just like, all right, basic cardigan girl. Like, like, okay.

Charles: They just see right through it.

Andrea: Exactly. Yeah. So, One of the things I also wanted your take on is teacher quit talk. So I don't know how active you are on like the TikTok side of things, because like I know you from Instagram and from the podcast.

Um, but I'm wondering your take on, and it mostly seems to be on TikTok. I haven't seen it on Instagram as much where there are teachers who are quitting and then coming on to TikTok to kind of share their experiences. And I kind of wanted to know if you think that that is. like helping the teacher attrition problem or hurting it.

Cause, and I feel like it's very nuanced, um, because I've got a few different ones I've watched where it's teachers leaving and are very sad that they're leaving. And some that are just like, peace out, I'm done with this place. Like, so I don't know. What are your thoughts on that?

Charles: You know, I, I'm not on TikTok.

I, if you look at my social media page, you made the joke, like I'm not on there and that's cause I'm terrible at social media, but I've seen similar things and I feel like you're right. It is nuanced, I think. It's important to talk about the issues and it's important to talk about, um, what's good, what's bad.

And I think we just can't leave it there. Uh, and it can't be, it's all horrible, people hate us and you know, yeah, there's some people that don't like teachers and it's odd. Maybe we should address that. But I think what is unique about the last few years is that. With more conversations about why things are going wrong and why teachers are leaving, I think we're able to find some solutions a little bit.

So I think it's important to start that conversation. Like it might rub folks raw to hear that teachers are upset and they're really upset and that's why they're leaving. Um, but there's a reason for it and I think it's worth noting that reason. Uh, I also think it depends on you as a viewer. So when I made the podcast, one of the first things my wife said, she's like, what are you going to do if This makes people quit.

And I was like, God, I hope not. And I try to be really balanced and, and it turns out that the podcast has kind of been a Rorschach test where folks that are really disappointed and just want to be seen, they're like, thank you. Like I had a guy write me over spring break. He said, hey, thanks for helping me quit.

And I was like, oh, geez.

Andrea: You're like, oh,

Charles: yeah. And it was, I was like, oh, but it was also this thing where he's like, I felt Like I was crazy and now I don't feel like I'm crazy. Yeah, and I think those videos are doing something similar where you're like, oh shoot. Yeah, me too. Um, but then there's another side of this where especially some of the older teachers I know that love teaching and they love their job, they think it's the greatest thing ever.

When they hear this stuff, they're kind of upset, but I think they also look to maybe why, you know, what are some solutions and what are some things that they can do as mentors to maybe help the situation now? So, I don't know, I feel like that's a middle of the road answer, but I think, you know, it kind of depends on you.

Yeah. But I think it's important to point out problems when there are problems. Yeah. We can't just sit around and ignore it and not call a turd a turd, like we got to point things out.

Andrea: Right. I totally agree. And I, you know, I find myself, if somebody has left teaching and wants to share about their experience, like I have so much respect for them, you know, number one, it probably feels just really good to be able to talk aloud about what you're dealing with because as teachers, we So often can't.

Um, I felt so very fortunate because when I was at the school I was at, I was able to make my videos, my jokes, and all of that, and I wasn't super scared. I was a little nervous, like, to be real. I was a little nervous I was gonna get in trouble for it, but I felt like The union was strong. I had read the, like, the contracts and all of that kind of stuff, and it wasn't explicit enough that if I, as long as I behaved, I would probably be fine.

Like a lot of, like, a lot of qualifiers in that, but yeah, but honestly, and, and I did not ask for permission, um, because I knew that, If I asked the district, Hey, can I make jokes about teaching? They're going to say, absolutely not. You know, they're going to say no. So I was like, cool, cool, cool. I'm going to give them plausible deniability.

I'm going to let them pretend they don't know. And for a long time they didn't. But then of course, as the platform started to grow, you know, I had my, my principal had a teenage daughter who attended the school and all the students knew me as like the the TikTok teacher. And so it very quickly became obvious like everybody knew, but no one is actually going to acknowledge kind of a thing.

Um, and I felt like for me as someone who created content about teaching online, it was so good to find the community there that sometimes we don't get in in our classrooms because we're so isolated. We're just kind of keeping our heads down and and, like, soldiering on. And it, the, and I feel like TikTok and Instagram has allowed teachers to find out, like, oh, like you said with the podcast, like, wherever we are, we are sharing so many of these experiences.

And I think that, like you said, um, the person who wrote in, like, it just feels validating, like, to hear, like, Okay, cool. Like, it's not me. Like, I, like, it's not necessarily that I'm just screwing everything up and I'm a terrible teacher. It's that it's, you know, it's been tough. Like, there have been things going on.

It's been really, really hard, um, to be a teacher. I feel like always to different degrees, uh, but I feel like we've got some things that are kind of coming to a head culturally, um, over the past few years. So, um, all right. So we are going to take a quick break, but then I'm going to ask you for your take on something that is probably maybe one of the most inflammatory things we can discuss as educators, which is dress code.

So we will be right back.

And welcome back. So we are going to be talking about what it is to be appropriate in the classroom as educators. And on our break, I heard a fun little story from Charles. And Charles, you have always been appropriate with your students. There was never like a moment where you regretted saying something or doing something in class.

Charles: No, absolutely not. Never. Uh, not, not even a little bit. I feel like that's part of, part of teaching is after the class, you're like, Oh my God. And I think so many times I call my wife and say, Hey, I did this. She's like, What do you do? We need it. You need to keep your job. Uh, but there was one class period where we had this, there was a heated conversation in class.

There were kids in the parking lot that were flying Confederate flags off their trucks. And in class we had, you know, wide spectrum of kids all over the, the, you know, diversity range. And there was a big debate about the Confederate flag. And one of the kids was like, well, this just means, you know, like, Lynyrd Skynyrd, and, and it's part of my past.

And I, we were kind of trying to make the point that you can't disconnect the history of that flag. And so I flipped off my class and I said, this is peace. This means peace. And the kids, We're like, what the hell? And I said, you see how you can't really disassociate, that's really hard to separate that one object that we have so much background knowledge on and me calling it something new.

Like you can't just change it just because you want to. Like history will track and be traced. So anyway, I told my wife that and again, it's one of those, Oh my God, what are you doing? And I, I acknowledge it. It was a terrible choice, but you made a great point. And the kids were like, Oh yeah,

that makes sense.

And

it's so often the kids, they're not even. They're like, Oh, yeah, it happens in the hallway all the time.

Andrea: They're way less phased than we are when stuff like that happens. Yeah,

Charles: but it was still terrible. And I, this is the first time it's being told in public, so.

Andrea: So thank you for being willing to share with us.

I just feel like that's so something that like, educators, we're trying so hard to reach our students. We're trying everything we possibly can to make it real to them, to make them understand. And I could see doing something like that in class where I'm like, No, like. You can't just pretend that it doesn't have all of this heavy weight and meaning behind it.

So I, I see where, I see where your, your mind was at when it happened. Because

Charles: it's a terrible choice.

Andrea: So I wanted to talk a little bit about dress code because I've been seeing this trend Instagram. I didn't get to do this. I think it would have been super fun. But, um, let's take a look at the, this TikTok real quick.

Huh? You got a jacket on? My mama see me walk out the house like this. What you say? I can't hear you. My headphones off. It's turned

Charles: off.

Oh God

Andrea: bro. Leave me alone. Teacher saying I can be

Charles: out

Andrea: here. Stop ladies. Pay attention. We're taking notes. Can you look up here? Hold. I

Charles: just gotta get this done. Just hold on.

Andrea: If you're not watching it on YouTube, uh, it is basically a video of teachers dressed as students, but not just dressed, they're also acting like students.

It was cracking me up because I kept thinking, like, one of the teachers, too, she's wearing, like, like a crop top and sweatpants because she's dressed like a student. She does, in fairness, look exactly like the students that I taught. But I don't know, for you, what were the dress code rules like for you at the schools that you taught at?

Because that, I, I would have gotten in trouble for that.

Charles: I feel like we're a similar age, and for growing up it was like, okay, you gotta put your hands down. It's gotta be two inches below your fingertips. And then everything here is covered. But then there started to be the trend where guys would tear off their sleeves and essentially make These tiny little lines like of their workout shirts and like nipples were out and everything.

And, and so, you know, I, I think in high school, like I had this image of what the dress code was. And then in my student teaching, I, I remember being, you know, I'm young and there's these, I was teaching junior high and these girls were wearing stuff and everything was out. And I looked at my, my, I was, I was with an older man and I was like, what do we do?

He's like, I'll show you what we do. And he had the janitor come in, turn the air conditioning on to 50 degrees in the room. And so kids would come in and be like, brr, and they'd go get their own coat. Um, and, and so I think from there on, I've always been of the mindset that I'm probably not going to say anything.

I'm sorry to all my admin. Um, I'm just, I don't feel like that's my place. also think that unless it's going to be distraction from education, like I actually don't notice half the time like we had a hat rule and all this stuff and spaghetti straps all that weren't supposed to be allowed. I just never noticed maybe I'm just dense.

Uh, but I was focused on the kid and like the, The lesson.

Andrea: Yeah.

Charles: Um, the only time it was a distraction when it was like a costume. Yeah. And that's something where, or if the face was covered in that. I didn't, I never liked that, but I, yeah. I feel like that's a, that's a dull response, but I, I think to me, education's more important.

Like, I would rather you show up on time and, uh, try to work on your work if that was your focus rather than the dress code stuff.

Andrea: Yeah. Uh, a hundred percent. And,

Charles: but those videos are hilarious. I, because I, every one of those I can like name the students, I'm like, oh yeah, that's so and so, and so, and so.

Yeah. Absolutely.

Andrea: Exactly. Yeah. It cracked me up. The school I went to, like K through 12, it started out as just like regular ish dress code, and then they went to uniforms for a while, and it was like, you could wear like Dickies, pants, and polo shirts. But the, the polo shirts couldn't be, like, the American Eagle female cut ones.

They had to be, like, the man square cut

Charles: ones.

Andrea: And, like, the rules were so kind of strange and obscure. But I remember being so angry because we had very, like, the two inches from the fingertip. thing for skirts except that cheerleaders were allowed to wear their skirts and cheer skirts are not two inches longer than the fingertips pretty much anywhere and so they would have all of these really strict rules and so a girl would be able to come to school or would get in trouble for wearing one that was like at the fingertips.

One day and then come to school in their cheer uniform the next day And it's like four inches above their their fingertips and suddenly it's totally fine to wear around school. Spirit. It's School Spirit! Of course, anything for School Spirit.

Charles: Ah. Well, I've been a wrestler forever, and so like our wrestlers we have So, you know, a lot of times they'll, they'll pull up the singlet on their thighs up to like, oh, as high as it'll go because then you have better movement and

Andrea: you're not

Charles: covering a whole lot.

Like those things don't leave a lot to the imagination.

Andrea: Yeah. There's, there is a lot going on there. But

Charles: it's school spirit, man. And I, I feel like there were also, gosh, uh, in, I remember in high school there was a, like a homecoming pep rally thing and I remember going and, and I, I taught at the same school I went to.

And so that was something that was, you know, interesting. Um, but I remember during the pep rally. Essentially stripping down to just shorts and like dancing.

Andrea: Yeah. And it

Charles: was fine. It was school spirit. And so like, again, it's a really odd, the context. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I just want kids to be comfortable.

I think what I've noticed is that it's fashion, yeah, but I also see kids that if they're wearing like the belly things like they'll, they'll be trying to cover here. Or I know kids that are trying to keep creases out of their shoes. They have those little inserts and then they're like, Frankenstein walking all over the place.

You know, I just, just be comfortable, man. Right.

Andrea: Exactly. Yeah. It's so funny because I asked on Instagram in preparation for this what some of the crazier rules were that people had seen at their schools for dress code. And one of the ones somebody said is that their administrator hated capri pants. And so, no one was allowed to wear capri pants.

Like, the teachers, the students, like, it was strictly forbidden to wear capri pants. That's such a

Charles: weird thing. I've never even, oh my god.

Andrea: Right? And another one said, like, no one is allowed to wear pink. Which, as far as I'm aware, which I'm very naive when it comes to stuff like this, I don't think that's a common gang color, is it?

I

Charles: don't think so either, no.

Andrea: I know, like, blue and red. I And like, yeah, and purple

Charles: sometimes and gold, but

Andrea: yeah, but no,

Charles: yeah, pink

Andrea: is such a strange one. It's

Charles: the, the gang of feminism is what it is. It's terrifying.

Andrea: Oh my gosh, yeah. It was a lot of stuff like that where it was like, who is making up that rule?

There was one that was no open toed shoes after Labor Day. Which I thought was fascinating. I was like, what? It's like Devil Wears Prada is like trying to determine what people choose to wear and not wear. I had, uh, one of my jobs actually that was as not, not as a teacher, but as a technical writer where I was very bad at my job, I had to wear, um, tights.

Like that was part of the, the dress code for women. And I remember when I first got that job, I was like, Is this for real? And like, stockings? Stockings! And this was in Virginia where it's very humid and it's very uncomfortable. And I think I did it for a week and then I'm like, I dare them to tell me to put stockings on.

I'm not doing this. I cannot be expected to have to wear stockings when it's 95 degrees and 100 percent humidity. It was just

Charles: Yeah, that's terrible.

Andrea: Absolutely insane. And for no reason.

Charles: Yeah. Like, I remember I work construction and I would like, Take my sleeves, because otherwise, you know, sparks and welding stuff and hot things that would burn you would get in.

Like, that makes sense. It was 100 degrees out, but okay, I'm going to wear this.

Andrea: Yeah.

Charles: Stockings.

Andrea: There's, I don't know

Charles: what the purpose Yeah,

Andrea: exactly. Which, did it make you

Charles: type better? I don't know.

Andrea: It did not. I can tell you right now, . Okay. There wasn't a lot that was gonna help me be successful in that job.

It was too much, uh, sitting still and focusing on a computer, but it, yeah, it just fascinates me. I have also worked at schools where the jeans, paying for the jeans day was a thing. I don't know if you have to pay for jeans day or if you've ever experienced that. Never. No. Really?

Charles: No. No. We've had, it was.

And I didn't know how spoiled we were until, like, once it gets really hot outin Wyoming, like, it's winter eight months out of the year. It's, it's terrible. And, um, but when we hit, you know, late, like, close to May, all of a sudden all the coaches are in shorts.

Andrea: Yeah.

Charles: And, you know, and it's, if they're in shorts, it's kind of like, well, you can do whatever you want.

Um,

Andrea: right? Like PE teachers, that is like the biggest pass ever to get to wear comfy clothes. Like PE teachers are always like in gym shorts or in like sweats or leggings. And I just remember being so jealous because the school where I had to pay It was, it was either three or five dollars and only on Fridays in order to wear jeans.

That's

Charles: horrible.

Andrea: Isn't that insane?

Charles: And, and I, I feel like I justify, like I'll wear t shirts and be like, it's Wyoming Day because I taught Wyoming authors, like, well, I've got to support. Right. And so I'm going to wear, And I teach with my brother. He's an English teacher too. And, um, I would go and be like, are you wearing sweatpants?

He's like, yeah, but they look like dress pants, right? So he'd find, he'd find stuff that looks from afar really nice, but he's just wearing sweatpants. He's got those

Andrea: Lululemon pants that are like real stretchy. Because I've heard, I've seen, and there were, for a while there was like a whole brand that it's like dress pants, but they feel like sweatpants.

But it just was so strange to me When I went to another school where they're like, no, you can wear, you can wear jeans whenever you want. And I was like, oh, but like any, any day of the week? And they're like, yeah, of course, any day of the week. And I was like, but like, they probably have to like, have no holes in them.

And they're like, I mean, don't have a hole like on the butt or something. But other than that, you can wear kind of what you want to wear. And at that school, I don't ever remember there being an issue with a teacher wearing something inappropriate. Or like, revealing or distracting or anything like that.

Like, because, big surprise, teachers are professionals and adults. Who would have thought? Right. And they You know, I think Go ahead. No,

Charles: I feel like with the, like, the attrition idea of like, why teachers are leaving this, like, weird micromanaged stuff of what you can and can't wear. Like, that's, I mean, that definitely contributes.

And having to pay to wear jeans? I mean, ah. I think about some of these So, I, I've got a, um, I have teachers keeping audio journals through the year, and I have a teacher, brand new, first year, within that first week of school, she tore her pants, and at school, split a seam, and I'm like, oh, God, poor thing, and she's like, no, I always have an extra pair, but there's also, if you're an elementary teacher, you're always squatting down, moving around.

I think in the high school setting, I gotta be quick to be able to, I don't know, move around like I can't. I don't know.

Andrea: Yeah. I'm not

Charles: gonna wear a suit. That's terrible.

Andrea: I know. And I knew some of the, uh, the guys that I worked with, they would dress up for the first two weeks. Like that was like their establishing authority, kind of couple of weeks they'd wear a tie and a button up every day and then would slowly kind of get more casual as the, the year wore on.

Um, and I still, I think dress nicest. But at the beginning of the year, but, you know, in college, like, whatever, like, you can pretty much wear whatever, but I do like to do that at least initially, and that's probably just a matter of, like, energy as opposed to me making, like, the cognizant choice of, like, ah, I'm an authority.

It's more just, like, I have the energy to make sure that that shirt is actually ironed, whereas the rest of the year we're wearing stuff that does not have to be ironed and can just be grabbed right out. Um, I'm trying to think now, did your schools ever have rules about footwear? Because,

Charles: you know, not that I can remember.

And I also didn't, like, I don't wear things with my toes out, so I never really paid attention. Um, I know my wife, because she taught chemistry biology, a lot of times, uh, I know she wore. Open toed stuff. But again, being in the lab, she was very conscious of always having something to cover her feet. But

Andrea: yeah,

Charles: I, I just based on observation, I know teachers are wearing all sorts of stuff.

Um, yeah, I don't know. I think I'm very thankful for that. I'm very thankful that my admin, that was not something they cared too much about.

Andrea: Yeah. I remember there being some of that, like definitely sandals, stuff like that. So, okay. If there was one article of clothing that you wish Just, I'm, I'm not gonna say you would make it not allowed, but it wouldn't make you angry personally if they said you, that's not allowed anymore, you can't wear those anymore.

I have one very strongly at the top of my brain, because I have a personal vendetta about this article of clothes, but.

Charles: I feel like I care so little.

Andrea: There's nothing that you're just like, man, I hate those.

Charles: Okay, this is, this is lame, but squeaky shoes? Because you got the kids in the hall, like, when it's passing peer, or like, in class, and you hear, ee, ee, ee, ee, ee.

I would love if those went away. That'd be great.

Andrea: That's, that's fair. I, my thing, and I know I'm going to get so much hate for this. I hate Crocs so much. Visually, I hate them. Like, there has never been a time in my life, and I, I think part of it is because when I was a lifeguard, These, all these little old ladies that were waddling to get to the water aerobics class would always wear Crocs.

And because when the Crocs got wet, they would slip out of them and they would get hurt. And so every time I see a pair of Crocs, I think of these elderly Ladies, like, like a tortoise on its shell, trying to get up, because the Crocs had betrayed them. And from that point on, I can't, like, I recently, my son, who's four, begged me to get a pair, and I, I cracked, like, cracked, and I got them, like, off brand, but not the actual Crocs, because the idea of giving money to the Croc Empire was too much for me, so if they, I, that would, like, upheaval, like, national, like, upheaval if they actually ever did that.

I'd be, I'd be the only one in the United States that would be like, nice. Let's get rid of those things.

Charles: It sounds like the khaki thing, you know? You might be more like the khaki guy or the, the, what is it? The, the short? Yes, the, yeah,

Andrea: yeah, yeah. The capri guy. Yeah. The capri, yeah. That's it. Put me in charge of like Indiana State.

Sorry, guys. No crocs. No crocs. No crocs for anybody. Can you imagine? It's a slippery

Charles: slope.

Andrea: Ooh, yeah, it's like that absolute power, corrupts absolutely. That's what I would use my absolute power for is to just destroy

all

crooks. You know that the, the time, like one of the first movies that came out that was like, that had crocs in them was Idiocracy.

Charles: Like,

Andrea: in that movie where they're talking about how dumb people are, the shoes they're all wearing are Crocs. It just, I'm saying, I have

Charles: strong,

Andrea: passionate feelings because of, for good reason. Okay, so my question I have for you is actually not from me, it is from an audience member who submitted a question, and I felt like this was a good one because it kind of deals with the conflict that happens kind of at school with peers and all of that.

So this person is from Wisconsin, and they said, I'm a high school SPED teacher who gets to work on on our more difficult friends. One has completely manipulated our social worker into thinking I'm a bully and targeting her. So much that she has said This in meetings to parents, students, admin, other teachers, um, some who will stand up for me.

It's so bad that the social worker has essentially made herself an outcast in our building. My question, how do I have a working relationship with someone who openly attacks me and lies about my actions and motives? I have worked closely with her, but at this point, we cannot function. And I worry in the long run, it hurts the kids as many of my students have social worker involvement.

So it kind of started at the beginning, like it was this actually the social worker who she has kind of a conflict with. So do you have any advice on how she can work well enough with this person?

Charles: I may be not the best person. I feel like any time there's that sort of thing, it's I, I'm gonna address it right away.

I, I, I, um, I hate conflict. I hate having anything lingering and feeling that pit in my stomach. So I will head on say, hey, we need to have a conversation because this isn't, this isn't working. It's not working for us, not working for the kids. And I'm going to be pretty blunt, maybe sometimes in a bad way, but it always, the other?

Yeah. Whether we, um, whether admin has to get involved, which I avoid at all costs. I, I really hate going to admin with any issues. Like, I like to try to solve them myself. Yeah. Um, but if it's one of those things where it's like lying and all that, I mean, document everything and I do I like I think pointing it out is is important to that person to say hey this is what I've noticed and trying to do it the nicest way possible not getting in their face like how dare you but in that We all know how to do this with a parent that writes a crazy email and then you're like, thank you for your concern.

I'm so happy that you are involved.

Yeah.

And we can do that with these people too and saying, you know, I know you care. I, I, I see that you care. Uh, but there's something that's going on between what we've got going on. So like, how can we figure that out? Let's get a cup of coffee. Let's get a drink.

Something so we can figure this out.

Andrea: Yeah.

Charles: Um, it's that kill them with kindness. Boy, it's hard. It, right. Exactly. I think that can help a ton. And I don't know. There's also a point where if that doesn't work, then do as little as you can. Um, you don't have to eat lunch with them. You don't have to do these things to try to make it work.

Make it only a professional relationship. And um, not that I'm a curmudgeon, but I feel like part of what helps me is like, I, I never And I'm just so overwhelmed and this is my way of, you know, sitting back and not getting into that complaining sort of situation. Like I just, I watch a, I don't know, eat my sandwich, maybe watch an episode of Bob's Burgers and just feel happy and then I go back to what I need to do.

But I think sometimes dwelling in it hurts too. Like.

Andrea: Yeah.

Charles: Tear the band aid off, address it as soon as you can, and then, I don't know, if that blows up, I'm so sorry that that was my advice.

Andrea: But I agree. I tend to be the same way, especially if I am not even sure. Why the person is upset with me or why they don't like me.

I will often be like, hey, are we good? Like, did I say or do something? Because it is entirely possible that I said or did something that would, you know, hit someone the wrong way if I joked with them in a way that they're like, I don't know you like that. Like, you can't make those kind of jokes. I didn't think that was funny.

And I will immediately apologize and again, try and like kill them with kindness, like you said. But there are also people who are just very, uh, A lot of people are really insistent on being just unhappy, and maybe it's not that they don't even not like you. Maybe they just are grumpy folks, which is very possible.

And then, like you said, you just kind of pull away and you make it a strictly professional relationship, but I imagine that's very hard when you know that you have So, um, I've had a lot of meetings with this person, and my other piece of advice would be if you're going to have a chat with somebody, maybe see if there is somebody who doesn't have conflict with that person, and does not have conflict with you, that could also be there for the conversation, um, just professionally, I think that that tends to also make people be a little more cautious with their words, because whenever I have a, somebody who is dealing with a difficult parent, my very first thing is like, you need to get a third person Like, to be witnessing this interaction, whether it's an administrator, or your department head, or a colleague, like, have someone else there so that it's not just gonna be a he said, she said, like, and, and like you said, all the documentation, I think, is really important always with For sure.

Dealing with, with peers and with students and, and all of the things. So

Charles: And I think like on that same level of making sure that you're in a space that is neutral and you're in a space where you can, you can sit down and you can be in a, where you're not like looking aggressive or in any way.

Andrea: Right.

Charles: And I feel like there was, As like a side, two examples, like I had one that was a good friend, but man, she come in and just everything was terrible and horrible.

And it was always really hard and it was making my life hard. And so I had to say like, I'm, I got to draw a line. Like, I'm going to tell you I can't talk. And, and that was nice. Like creating that good boundary of saying, this is what I need from you. And that made it better. I also had this other guy that I coached against and I've known him most of my life.

And something went awry. Uh, but at one point with the, Hey, are we good? He's like, as good as we'll ever be. Oh, I'm okay with that. All right. That's fine. You know, and, and we avoid each other as much as possible. And if we have to interact, it's I don't know. I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. And he's never very happy about it, but, um, you know, sometimes that's as good as it'll be.

And that's okay. And it's, I think sometimes it's nice when you both can articulate it and actually set like, oh, okay, this is where we're at. And have no question about where you are.

Andrea: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. And I think that it's hard, I don't know, because our jobs are so relational. I want everyone to like me and I want everyone to be my friend.

And so if I find out someone's like as good as we'll ever be would crush me.

Charles: Oh, no, it did. It was terrible. And he's like a rival coach. He's like on a team across town. Like we've always had this rivalry. And it was it. I was like, why doesn't he like my wife? She's like, do you want him to like you? And I said, actually, not

Andrea: really.

Charles: And it's it is it's so hard to have. I don't know. It's when students, no matter what you do, when the student just does not like you. And that's Boy, it's,

Andrea: it's

Charles: a bummer.

Andrea: Yeah, it's tough to let go because it's like, I'm doing, I'm giving it all. Like, I'm really, I'm like, taking an interest. I'm trying so hard.

And most of the time, most of the time, I felt like I was able to get through with my students. But every once in a while, there'd be a girl or two, and that's usually what it was, is it tended to be a female student that just, she just didn't like my vibe. And I'm like, I think you're so smart. And, you know, I think you're, you know, uh, a leader in this because usually these were girls who were very much leaders in the classroom and all of that and I would be trying to like connect and they're just like Nah, I think this class is dumb, and I don't like you.

And I'm like, that's fine, I can live with that, and I won't, it won't haunt me from now until eternity at all. It's fine. And I

Charles: won't remember you specifically and this interaction very specifically.

Andrea: Exactly. That's

Charles: bad. I had a situation where a kid earlier this year cussed me out up and down. And so I do my usual.

I'm like, okay, go hang out in the hall. And then I go out and I lean against the wall and I'm like, what happened? Are you okay? Is everything fine? And he cussed me up and down more. So I was like, all right, we're going to go to the office. He ended up moving into a different school. And uh, one of my best friends is his teacher now.

And she was like, He's part of my cult. I've got him knitting. He loves it. He's defending other kids. I'm like, what did you do? I have no idea. And I think it just depends on you. And sometimes it's a gendered thing. I remember with my wife, we had, uh, we taught at the same school, had some similar students.

And then, so we were like, hey, how do you, how do you address this kid? And there was a one situation, she was like, well, I get down really close and I talk really quiet next to him. And so we had kind of a thing in class and I went and squatted down. I was like, okay. So I started talking, trying to be really nice.

And we were both And I was like, this is weird, isn't it? This is really uncomfortable. He's like, yeah. I was like, could you just stop doing that? He's like, yeah. I was like, I won't do this again. He's like, thank you. So, you know, it's just the same approach doesn't always work.

Andrea: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And you're right.

Sometimes it's literally just personality and not everyone's gonna like us. Like, you know, and now, you know, with having podcasts, social media presence, it is very clear that not everyone is gonna like us. Like, people make it. How do you

Charles: deal with that? Oh my gosh.

Andrea: I, I think about the worst people I've ever met, and I just imagine it's them who, who are writing the comments, because it's always anonymous profiles.

And so I think about, like, would I really care if that person specifically wrote that? No. Because who cares what they think? Well, I'm attributing it to them, and that's usually what I do. Like, I think it would be more hurtful if it was, like, other people who also had very Like, public platforms, and I felt like I knew them.

That, I feel like, would really suck. But most of the time, it's people that are just, like, anonymous and just DM me stupid stuff. Like, you're annoying. Cowards. Right, I know. Yeah. Well, and I was, I was talking to another creator the other day, because they, what did they say? Oh, they said I have a huge forehead, and I was like, jokes on them, I'm not even insecure about my forehead.

What a bunch of losers, they didn't even hit on my insecurity. If you're gonna make fun of me, at least do enough work to figure out what I'm actually insecure about. Like, the laziness of people today.

Charles: Oh man,

Andrea: that's so good. Yeah,

Charles: I, that's part of why I don't want, like, I, I've avoided having me on there.

I'm like, I'll just put words.

Andrea: Yeah. Well now, now, now all the world has seen, I

Charles: know. The smile and the beard. .

Andrea: Alright, so one of the other things I always do, uh, and I think you've probably seen on Fridays, is I get the, what are those kids doing? And, uh, so I read a couple of them on, uh, on these episodes. So, one of the things just cracks me up so much, because I can, I can feel it in my soul, this moment.

So, a teacher brought their seventh graders to the Liberty Bell, and lined them up for a picture, and then all of the kids said, you know, instead of saying, cheese, they said, Skibbity Bell. Oh. Which, like, this place of, like, great historical significance, you're sitting there, you're like, okay, say cheese, and they're, like Basically, referencing Skibbity Toilet, which is very confusing to me still.

I've seen pictures of what it references, and it does not further illuminate to me what

Charles: I've tried.

Andrea: I did it so many times. That's how we know we're getting old, is that we're trying to understand the reference and when they explain it. But I feel like we have our own, like, uh, really obscure, early YouTube things that if people were to look at it, they'd be like, what?

is salad fingers. What does that? Oh, yeah.

Charles: Here's the world. I just, yeah, I love it.

Andrea: Exactly. Stuff like that. That very small niche of people are going to be like, oh, yeah, that makes sense.

Charles: And with the kids, you said the dress code thing. If I could get rid of something, it would be The Riz. Oh my god. And I try to tell kids, I'm like, this is, let me tell you how awkward this is.

And I'll tell them like, oh man, what Riz? And they're like, ugh. I'm like, see? See? It's weird. Don't, quit saying it. Yeah, it

Andrea: does, it doesn't actually sound better when you guys say it. Like, it sounded awful when I said it because I'm a teacher, but it's equally awful. Like, please record yourself saying it so that when you're 30, you can look back.

Yeah. And just be embarrassed because, and do say

Charles: rad, though. That doesn't

Andrea: help. I

Charles: mean, we got bad words.

Andrea: It's accept .

Charles: Yeah.

Andrea: I feel like this. It's radical, man.

Charles: It's awesome. .

Andrea: I feel like this generation though, is gonna have so many moments. Like I think about early Facebook where it's like, this was happening five years ago and it was, it's just mortifying.

They're gonna have that. Mm-Hmm. amplified so much because they have so many videos of themselves. And I think I have it from my early posts. I'm like, this is painful for me. And the weird

Charles: pictures of themselves that's just the forehead and the ceiling. Oh my gosh.

Andrea: Oh, so many. Um, okay. Not that there's anything

Charles: wrong with it.

They're kids. They're great. They're great. We love them all. I just got to make fun of them for it.

Andrea: Exactly. So before I let you go, can you share some of your upcoming projects, what you've got coming up, and where people can find you?

Charles: Yeah, so, uh, I've got the podcast, Those Who Can't Teach Anymore, which is on Apple and Spotify and all those places.

Uh, there will be a second season of the podcast. Um, I've got, I want to say 12 teachers across the country that have kept audio journals throughout the 23, 24 school year. And so I'll be compiling those and putting them together to kind of give a year and a life of teaching. And it's great. There's some really cool stuff.

Um, I also have folks that this is their first year out of teaching. And so getting kind of that back and forth of what that's like. And. Uh, unreal, sort of teaching, um, I've got a history podcast that I've been working on with a buddy of mine. He was a professor at Tufts. He wrote a book called, uh, The First Asians in the Americas, and it's a very academic, great book.

Uh, but we turned it kind of into a podcast, so it's more accessible, and you'll get to learn about Diego. His name's Diego Javier Luis. And, uh, I think it's gonna be good. Um, and we've got another buddy, uh, Julian Saperiti, who did my theme song, uh, does all the music for it. And it's, it's very good. Um, his music is good.

I'm not saying the podcast. You're like, it's the

Andrea: best podcast you'll ever It's the best. It's the only, I mean,

Charles: you'll, you'll love it. The music's great. That's awesome. I'm on it, so it's gonna be, who knows. Um, yeah. But yeah, those are the two big things that I got coming up.

Andrea: That's so exciting. I was so delighted when I found out you were coming out with a second season, which when you guys listen to the podcast, you'll learn about how he kind of ended up doing the first season, um, which didn't sound like it had like allowed for, for a second season, but I'm so excited.

I can't, that's such a good idea to do like audio journals and all of that. I cannot wait to listen. And then when does the, um, the first Asians in the Americas come out? Is that the same timeframe? You

Charles: know, It's, uh, we don't really know. It's, we're, it's almost done. The whole thing's almost done. And then we're just going to figure out when to release.

I'm thinking probably fall, uh, is when it'll come out. And then the second season, uh, of the teacher podcast will likely be in the winter.

Andrea: Awesome. I cannot wait. Based on just time

Charles: frame. Yeah.

Andrea: And then how can people find you on social media? Just Instagram, right? That's the only place they can find you.

Okay. Yeah.

Charles: Those who can't teach anymore. Aw, man. I'm, I, I.

Andrea: Um, the

Charles: first one was through Fund For Teachers, which is amazing for a teacher and you want to do your own professional development, go, go look at Fund For Teachers. Um, but this other one was another education grant. And so I finally, I put aside money for a friend who does marketing because I'm so bad at marketing.

Andrea: Great. Which again, like the fact you said you didn't do a lot of marketing for the first one, but I'm, I kid you not guys, if you look at the top education podcast, his podcast is pretty much always there. So that speaks very, very highly of the podcast that people are engaging with it and rating it highly and all of that.

So yeah. And, and I personally listened to the whole thing and I did that thing where I'm like doing other things while I'm listening to the podcast and I have like this. snapshot moment of me trying to clean my daughter's room, and I'm just sitting there on the floor instead of cleaning, just listening and thinking.

And like, it's just very, very, I cannot speak highly enough. So guys, please check out his podcast. Go look at his Instagram where you won't see his face. Check it out. It's really good stuff. And, uh, we will be right back. Welcome back to those who can't do, and I cannot say enough things about how much of a fan I am of Charles podcast.

Like I know I already said it, but it was one of those things that I stumbled upon his podcast because I kept. Seen it on Apple podcasts as like, You know, new podcast, you kind of like jump up and down the list and all that kind of stuff. And so I kept seeing his and I was like, now I'm now I'm curious because clearly about teaching and it's clearly, you know, Something that people are interested in so I started listening to it and then right around that time I realized that he had dm'd me and said like, hey We're almost next to each other on the list and we have similar names and so we ended up chatting quite a bit and as you guys heard he's just Such a phenomenal human.

His podcast is so good. I, I don't think I even mentioned it, uh, when he was on, but when I was doing all of my research for my dissertation, one of the things that I have this whole big section on teacher attrition and teacher stress and all of that. And I feel like in his podcast, he does such a good job of consolidating all of that information.

And like he said, he tried not to make it heavy handed in either way. And there were moments. In the podcast where I was kind of flip flopping on whether or not he was going to be in the classroom at the end of the podcast, you know, because he was doing such a good job of arguing all of these different angles and nuances of what it is to be in a teacher in the classroom today.

I'm going to stop singing his praises now, but seriously, very good podcast. I'm a big fan. Um, and I'm very excited about his new podcast that is coming out. Cause I do love like a good deep dive history podcast as well. Um, I hope you guys loved hearing about all of the stories. I was so excited when he shared about his, his, uh, what would we call that?

His gesture that he gave his students. Um, just because it's such the solid silliness that we as teachers get ourselves into where we're trying so hard to reach our kids and then we do something and we're like, well, I'm gonna get fired for that one. So yeah, just very, very relatable. Um, if you have thoughts about what we talked about today or have suggestions about somebody you would like to have come on, you can hit us up at Andrea at human content.

com or you can contact me of course, at Educator Andrea on TikTok or Instagram or YouTube. Or you can contact the Human Contact Pod, human Content Podcast family. I dunno, I always struggle with that whole Chunk Human Content Podcast family on Instagram or TikTok at Human Content Pods. Um, and thank you guys so much for leaving reviews.

I have been. So incredibly elated with the amount of reviews we've gotten and the kindness from so many of you who took the time. Cause I, I know for me, I've listened to podcasts for a long time that I've loved. And for some reason, like just clicking that five star and writing out the review, there was like a mental block.

So I hope if you have it yet, like remove that mental block, like just, just go over there and do a little tippy tap on the keyboard, um, or on the iPhone and leave a review. Like Rita, Pete on Apple who said not a teacher. But I love listening to the stories and tales Andrew has about her experiences in education.

She is funny and always looks for good qualities in her students. This really shines through in this podcast, which is the goal. Our goal, of course, on this podcast is to make you feel seen and heard and like you are not alone in this whole crazy thing. So if you want to catch the full video episodes, they're up every single week up on YouTube at Educator Andrea.

Thank you so much for listening. I am your host, Andrea Forkham. A very special thank you to our guest co host today, Charles Fournier. And our executive producers are Andrea Forkham, Aron Korney, Rob Goldman, and Shahnti Brooke. Our editor is Andrew Sims. Our engineer is Jason Portizzo. Our music is by Omer Ben Zvi.

Our recording location is the Indiana State Bi College of Education. To learn more about our Those Who Can't Do's program disclaimer and ethics policy and submission verification and licensing terms, you can go to podcasterandrea. com. Those Who Can't Do is a human content production.

Thank you so much for watching. If you're like me and you're thinking, gosh, I really need more Those Who Can't Do in my life, you can start your binging right now by clicking on that playlist button right over there. New episodes are out every Thursday, so please subscribe and join us each week on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.